Need some help from the employers (bosses) in here w/an employee issue

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Need some help from the employers (bosses) in here w/an employee issue

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:02:59 PM EDT

So, I've got a dandy. This employee has been written up 2 times in 2005 for being late returning from lunches and marking down more time than they worked on thier timeslip at the end of the week.
She announced a few weeks ago that her finances are fianlly in order and that her husband told her she does not have to work if she doesn't want to. That's great by me, I've got a very eager one wanting her job anyways, ready to step in. So, I was totally expecting her to give notice, but has not yet. On her last write up for being late, I told her there would not be a next time, she would be fired, done deal.

Well, I've been out of the office quite a bit in the last 2 weeks, filling in for someone else and she is back to it. Lazy, not pulling orders, bad attitude towards the customers and late by at least 10 to 15 mins each day on her lunch.

I know the more I let it go on, the more she feels she can get away with and the worse it looks to my other employees as well. I really feel that now, she is trying to get fired so she can draw unemployemnt for some time while she sits at home doing nothing.

I'm stuck, I want her gone, she is not adding any value or service to our business now, but do not want to play into her plan (that I assume) I cannot demote her, there is no room for her to go anywhere, I'm just stuck. My boss and his boss agree with me on my assumption. She has worked for us for over 7 years and has been a "problem area" from day one.

Any ideas?
Have any of you ever had to deal with this?

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:04:13 PM EDT

[#1]

Unpaid suspension for a week?

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:06:03 PM EDT

[#2]

Fire her.

She is not performing her duties to an acceptable level. I assume her reviews reflect that?

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:07:34 PM EDT

[#3]

Perhaps you could hire the other person and slowly have the new person take over more and more of the slackers job. All the while cutting back the slackers hours. Until she either gives up or is only there a handful of hours.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:08:54 PM EDT

[#4]

Answer this question, is your company better off with her or without her?

I think you know the answer.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:09:06 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Perhaps you could hire the other person and slowly have the new person take over more and more of the slackers job. All the while cutting back the slackers hours. Until she either gives up or is only there a handful of hours.

Perfect. Shity but perfect.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:09:50 PM EDT

[#6]

I think she used to work here as well!

First, start documenting. Every time she breaks policy document it and speak to her about it with a witness (preferably your boss). Have her sign a "correction" document stating she understands that she has violated the rules and is expected to cease the violation activity immediately.

After a month or so you will have a trail documenting a willful disobedience and unwillingness to abide by the rules.

You can then fire her and have all the grounds in the world to deny unemployment.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:10:15 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Fire her.

She is not performing her duties to an acceptable level. I assume her reviews reflect that?

Yes, her reviews reflect that to a T.

In a way, it's bad of me, but I do not want to give into what she wants, or feel that I've been strongarmed into her getting her way, she does not deserve that. Makes me sound bad, I know, but damnit, if I'm gonna pay someone's wages, they had better be here to help with the profitability of the company, not on thier ass sitting at home getting a check every week.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:12:57 PM EDT

[#8]

Have you documented any of the warnings? Has she signed off on any of them? If you've got written proof that she's been warned, you'll have a better chance of coming out on top.
Veterinary Economics (the best business magazine in the veterinary industry had an article on this- three strikes:
1. Verbal warning
2. Written warning, signed by both parties
3. Termination at end of business day of next infraction, and escort them to the door.

-Hobbit

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:13:29 PM EDT

[#9]

You can either fire her for repeated insubordination, then deny her unemployment, which you won't have to pay...

Or, you can eliminate her job title from your company, thus no job for her... then you pay her unemployment.

I'd fire her swiftly, collect all the write-ups and documentation of her shittyness, and go to the board of labor denial hearing... IF it even goes that far, unlikely it will. You are not required to keep slugs on the payroll, and you've given more than adequate warnings, right? Three is fair, more than five is begging for termination.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:14:30 PM EDT

[#10]

If she is reporting more time then actualy worked that is false recording and is grounds for termination where I am. He hijinks are bad for the morale of the rest to the work force. And you not stopping them will do even more damage. After two write ups for tardiness and if you not do something you are reenforcing her behavior.
Fire her and don't look back.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:15:45 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Have you documented any of the warnings? Has she signed off on any of them? If you've got written proof that she's been warned, you'll have a better chance of coming out on top.
Veterinary Economics (the best business magazine in the veterinary industry had an article on this- three strikes:
1. Verbal warning
2. Written warning, signed by both parties
3. Termination at end of business day of next infraction, and escort them to the door.

-Hobbit

I have 2 letters of "correction" from last year, that I discussed with her, witness present and had her sign off that she fully understood what was being discussed. She also has copies of these as well.

She is a smart lady and can be a great employee, when she wants to. That is part of the reason why I feel that she wants to be fired.

I should also add, she has no love for me as I got this position instead of her

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:20:13 PM EDT

[#12]

Lying on a time card was considered theft from the company at every place I ever worked.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:23:33 PM EDT

[#13]

Whether or not she gets unemployment checks depends on your state laws.

In TN, for example, firing someone for not doing a good job will still get them a monthly check and my UE premiums go up.

Insubordination doesn't.

Contact your state's employment division and find out the rules.

But DON'T let it go unpunished. You will fan the sparks of laziness in the rest and create resentment.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:24:15 PM EDT

[#14]

You have been and continue to encourage the same crap from your other employees. You missed a good opportunity to "Send a Message" when you let this go on too long.

Willfully falsifying time cards is theft. Pure and simple. Slacking off just shifts the burden to someone else who has to do their job and hers too. Not fair to the good employees.

What "she" wants is irrelevant. If her agenda and yours agree, so much the better. You can step up to the plate and manage or hope a meteor takes her out. Your choice.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:27:05 PM EDT

[#15]

WRITTEN WARNINGS, SIGNED BY BOTH PARTIES AND KEPT IN THE FILE.

Giver her a copy of each one so that she can take them home and stick them on her refrigerator with a magnet...(OK, I'm kidding about that part.) If she refuses to sign them, call another supervisor into your office and have them witness the fact that she refused to sign it and have the witness sign it instead and note that she refused to sign it. Get 2 or 3 of those in the file and then can her ass.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:27:07 PM EDT

[#16]

fire her.

you have a documented history of unsatisfactory perfomance with more than one warning for the same behavior. the amount paid by unemployment will be small compared to benifit of cutting her loose.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:28:05 PM EDT

[#17]

Document these latest infractions and terminate. You then need to decide if you want to fight her attempt to collect. Sometimes it is worth letting someone collect just to get them out the door. I do have a 100% record in contesting Un-Emp hearings

……..............I can be an evil prick when necessary…….

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:33:42 PM EDT

[#18]

You want her to quit? Have her clean the bathrooms before lunch each day.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:34:40 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I think she used to work here as well!

First, start documenting. Every time she breaks policy document it and speak to her about it with a witness (preferably your boss). Have her sign a "correction" document stating she understands that she has violated the rules and is expected to cease the violation activity immediately.

After a month or so you will have a trail documenting a willful disobedience and unwillingness to abide by the rules.

You can then fire her and have all the grounds in the world to deny unemployment.

This worked for me as well. We even had to have a legal meeting with the State over the phone and had so much documentation that the guy lost before he even had a chance to dispute the claims. Needless to say he got no unemployment and we don't have to put up with his shit anymore!

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:36:15 PM EDT

[#20]

Hmmmm....

Tell her that you bought advertising one a radio station that she HATES (ie, hip hop, country, classic rock, christain talk). Have her sit in a closet all day listening to it Instruct her to write down the times that your ad plays.

When she says that she listened all day and heard nothing - you can act mad - "call" the radio station, and then assure her that it will be on Tomarrow.

If she doesnt like this, then have her paint a wall and then have her sit and make sure it drys properly.

She will get board and quit eventually.

If you can demote her pay, all the better.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:43:11 PM EDT

[#21]

Let her go. If she is bad with customers then the money in lost business will be more than the cost of any unemployment, if it comes to that. And as others have said it sounds like you have grounds to deny unemplyment anyway. Don't let her stick around hoping she will quit, cut out the cancer. Every day she is there is another day she could have a "slip and fall" or some other BS.

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:43:18 PM EDT

[#22]

Peta,
Having dealt with Oregon unemployment judges on many occassions I will tell you to after the time clock theft. Just based on job performance you will pay lose the case. There has to pretty much be a gross misconduct, the theft of company time, to have a shot at her losing the hearing. Someone above mentioned having the person complete an action plan of how they will fix the problem. This will be huge at the time of hearing as you will have in her own words what she was doing wrong and what she plans on doing to fix it.

Look at the other side of the coin too. Are your other employees doing her work? If so fire her immediately. She will file, you will deny, she will fight it and you or someone from your company will either by phone or in person be in a hearing with the Judge. I have had multiple people tell the Judge what they did wrong and knew it was wrong and still won their case. I have had people argue with the Judge and still win their case. Theft seems to be the ticket as an employer. I have sat in on about 50 hearings in Oregon.
Hope this advice helps,
Steve

Posted: 1/19/2006 1:58:31 PM EDT

[#23]

Dunno how oregon is, but here in Colorado (montana too), being fired for cause means you CANNOT collect unemployment
only if you lose your job through actions not of your own.

Fire her lazy a$$

Brian

Posted: 1/19/2006 2:10:34 PM EDT

[#24]

Fire her. BUT FIRST check the laws on final payment. In CA if you terminate someone they have to be paid in full at the time, so we suspend pending investigation, then when payroll has the check ready, call them in give them the check and walk them out the door.

Sounds like you have sufficient documentation.

Posted: 1/19/2006 2:12:33 PM EDT

[#25]

Fire her. Depending on whether the state is controlled by the liberals or the conservatives will determine if you will pay unemployement compensation. If you try to force her out, you also risk a discrimination suit for constructive discharge in a hostile environment. You missed the boat on the time/theft incident so I would use the issue of economic harm to the company by her rude and unfair treatment of the customers for the basis of termination.

You did document, didn't you?

ETA you can't fire her for something (an incident) you previously disciplined her for unless she does it again.

Posted: 1/19/2006 2:31:59 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
I think she used to work here as well!

First, start documenting. Every time she breaks policy document it and speak to her about it with a witness (preferably your boss). Have her sign a "correction" document stating she understands that she has violated the rules and is expected to cease the violation activity immediately.

After a month or so you will have a trail documenting a willful disobedience and unwillingness to abide by the rules.

You can then fire her and have all the grounds in the world to deny unemployment.

Yep. If you document the problems they will deny payment. Dismissal for cause does not lead to unemployment checks. SHE might think otherwise though.

Posted: 1/19/2006 3:04:40 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
You can either fire her for repeated insubordination, then deny her unemployment, which you won't have to pay...

Or, you can eliminate her job title from your company, thus no job for her... then you pay her unemployment.

I'd fire her swiftly, collect all the write-ups and documentation of her shittyness, and go to the board of labor denial hearing... IF it even goes that far, unlikely it will. You are not required to keep slugs on the payroll, and you've given more than adequate warnings, right? Three is fair, more than five is begging for termination.

+1

Posted: 1/19/2006 3:12:51 PM EDT

[#28]

Cut back her scheduled hours to the point that she decides to quit.

Posted: 1/19/2006 4:56:55 PM EDT

[#29]

Get it done.

The problem is not her continued bee ess.

The problem is other employees are watching and wondering if you're blind or having sex with her.

An employee like that is analogous to a lymphoma....her getting away with it will spread ill will like a cancer.

Posted: 1/19/2006 5:55:07 PM EDT

[#30]

The quicker you deal with the problem the better. The longer you wait, the more it hurts morale.

SRM

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:03:53 PM EDT

[#31]

It is close to being resolved.

I had a talk with the other employees after a few of them approached me about it. Seems she is pretty open with it in the office.

I've got everything documented, copies of the past correction plans with her signatures on it. I had a meeting with my general manager about it and we have a meeting with our regional manager on Monday. I have to be very carefull with her, she is the kind of person that would make my life hell w/lawsuits and that sort of shit if I do not have my ducks in a row. Let alone, our competition just opened a store in town and have approached her a few times. If she was that pissed, I could see a whole lot of info going that direction that they do not need.

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:40:30 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Hmmmm....

Tell her that you bought advertising one a radio station that she HATES (ie, hip hop, country, classic rock, christain talk). Have her sit in a closet all day listening to it Instruct her to write down the times that your ad plays.

When she says that she listened all day and heard nothing - you can act mad - "call" the radio station, and then assure her that it will be on Tomarrow.

If she doesnt like this, then have her paint a wall and then have her sit and make sure it drys properly.

She will get board and quit eventually.

If you can demote her pay, all the better.

I take it you have experience in this arena?

Kharn

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:47:23 PM EDT

[#33]

Fire her in the morning. You have adequate documentation of the problems with the two writeups from last year. Write her up again, have her sign on the dotted line, and terminate. If you don't follow through on this, others will test their limits too. Even if you have to pay the unemployment, it's worth it to be rid of her. Make certain she understand why she is being terminated, and that if she uses you for a reference, you will tell the truth, as you see it. Keeping a bad employee just to save on unemployment is stupid. Get your priorities straight, and get the job done.

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:50:00 PM EDT

[#34]

First I say FIRE HER.
if you cant to that because of extremely socialitic workplace laws then reposition her. Pay cuts, crappy schedules, write her up for EVERYTHING EVERYTIME.

She will quit.

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:50:59 PM EDT

[#35]

Make her job a living hell. Throw a bunch of extra tasks at her that are mundane and keep her away from customers, like stuffing envelopes. Keep documentation for each time she does not want to complete the tasks you give her (insubordination). Get enough paper, fire her, and deny her unemp. I'm sorry, it's one thing to get unemp if you contributed to the company but had to be let go for some legit reason. Its wholly another to be fired because you forced your employer into a spot such as this.

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:52:36 PM EDT

[#36]

Can her. The people that are pulling her weight and following the rules ARE aware of what is going on. The morale of those people is gonna take a shit, and she's going to indirectly cost you far more than unemployment...

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:55:16 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
The quicker you deal with the problem the better. The longer you wait, the more it hurts morale.

SRM

This is the 100% correct business advice. Don't torment her or play games with her to trick her into quitting. You should be a fair and honest boss to her and your other employees.

On the legal side, if you have an HR department, review your documentation, etc. with them. If not, consider investing a couple hundred bucks with a lawyer to make sure you don't have to spend a lot on defending a lawsuit.

Posted: 1/19/2006 6:59:14 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
It is close to being resolved.

I had a talk with the other employees after a few of them approached me about it. Seems she is pretty open with it in the office.

I've got everything documented, copies of the past correction plans with her signatures on it. I had a meeting with my general manager about it and we have a meeting with our regional manager on Monday. I have to be very carefull with her, she is the kind of person that would make my life hell w/lawsuits and that sort of shit if I do not have my ducks in a row. Let alone, our competition just opened a store in town and have approached her a few times. If she was that pissed, I could see a whole lot of info going that direction that they do not need.

Patrick....? Is that you?

Posted: 1/19/2006 7:20:43 PM EDT

[#39]

(Without having read the other replies)

You need to have procedures. When someone is hired they should be able to read the rules and know that if they're late a certain amount of times it will be handled in a precise manner. (Verbal warning, written warning, suspension, termination). Without written procedures you're open to anything they want to throw at you.
Judging by your post the company doesn't have this in place, so I would suggest getting it written up and a copy printed for each employee. Have a meeting where these sheets are given to them, and explain that from this day on these are the procedures that will be followed.

Posted: 1/19/2006 7:53:38 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Patrick....? Is that you?

Nope

Posted: 1/19/2006 8:01:37 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Fire her.

She is not performing her duties to an acceptable level. I assume her reviews reflect that?

Yep, if you've done the paperwork you should win mediation.
I'm canning a girl as soon as her re-eval comes back for tardiness and calling in.
My superior wouldn't let me do it for the last 2 years and the problem has grown.
It's gonna be great....I hope she cries about all her problems and excuses!