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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/19/2009 10:22:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 10:41:38 AM EST by lloydkristmas]
I was on the phone just now with a friend of mine. I dont know how this came up, but he asked me this question.

(Keep in mind we are in Texas, so I'm thinking in terms of Texas law here)

Lets say a guy goes to the door of a suburban home, either selling magazines, Mormonism, promoting his landscaping business, etc. Not doing anything visibly "threatening". Rings the doorbell, homeowner answers the door with a shotgun in hand, pointing it at you. You feel threatened by this, draw CCW, and shoot.

Who is in the wrong here? Can a homeowner brandish a gun in a semi-threatening manner on his own property? If so, can a reasonable person react to this, and employ deadly force against this percieved threat?

I told him I wasnt sure, but a jury would likely side against the guy who shot the homeowner. Its basically a lose-lose for the guy who is knocking at the door. That was pure speculation, what does ARFcom think?

Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:24:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 10:28:18 AM EST by dazeke352]
I voted the homeowner didn't do anything wrong

he didn't do anything wrong It's on his property therefore he has the right to openly carry a firearm
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:26:35 AM EST
If I were on a jury, I'd convict. I don't think the vendor was being reasonable and prudent. At first sight of the shotgun, he draws down? That's reckless.

But, I guess that depends on the jury instruction.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:27:11 AM EST
I saw a guy open carry at the gas station so I drew my ccw and shot him.

Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:31:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 10:34:06 AM EST by Texas_Infidel]
Stupid shit like this is why anit's believe there will be blood in the street.

You need to ask what you would do if you didn't have a CCW on yourself. Chances are you'd haul ass from the home, so why having a gun on your person require you to engage?

Your on his property. For all you know he just got a call from his current wife/gf ex boyfriend and said he was coming to kill the home owner. Or perhaps he is a witness to a murder trial and has been told to be ready for retribution. Why is the homeowner being drawn down on, on his own property. Would you want to be going out to the car with your gun to head to the range and some nut with a CCW "draws down" on you in your own yard?
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:32:28 AM EST
If you set foot on someone's property uninvited, and kill then, you're almost guaranteed to go away.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:33:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
Stupid shit like this is why anit's believe there will be blood in the street.

You need to ask what you would do if you didn't have a CCW on yourself. Chances are you'd haul ass from the home, so why having a gun on your person require you to engage?



I understand, but I suppose one could also argue that someone pointing a gun in your face for no apparent reason could easily shoot you as you flee.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:36:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
Stupid shit like this is why anit's believe there will be blood in the street.

You need to ask what you would do if you didn't have a CCW on yourself. Chances are you'd haul ass from the home, so why having a gun on your person require you to engage?

Your on his property. For all you know he just got a call from his current wife/gf ex boyfriend and said he was coming to kill the home owner. Or perhaps he is a witness to a murder trial and has been told to be ready for retribution. Why is the homeowner being drawn down on, on his own property. Would you want to be going out to the car with your gun to head to the range and some nut with a CCW "draws down" on you in your own yard?


I follow your logic, this is basically the same thing I told him.

At the same time, when a gun is pointed in your face, where do you draw the line at what is reasonable and what isnt?

Theres a difference between walking to your car with an AR slung and opening your door pointing your shotgun at the face of whoever might be on the other side.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:36:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By lloydkristmas:
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
Stupid shit like this is why anit's believe there will be blood in the street.

You need to ask what you would do if you didn't have a CCW on yourself. Chances are you'd haul ass from the home, so why having a gun on your person require you to engage?



I understand, but I suppose one could also argue that someone pointing a gun in your face for no apparent reason could easily shoot you as you flee.


1. the chances of them firing at all is probably 95+% they won't.
2. The chances of being hit from said fired gun is probably 95+% chance they miss.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:39:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
Originally Posted By lloydkristmas:
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
Stupid shit like this is why anit's believe there will be blood in the street.

You need to ask what you would do if you didn't have a CCW on yourself. Chances are you'd haul ass from the home, so why having a gun on your person require you to engage?



I understand, but I suppose one could also argue that someone pointing a gun in your face for no apparent reason could easily shoot you as you flee.


1. the chances of them firing at all is probably 95+% they won't.
2. The chances of being hit from said fired gun is probably 95+% chance they miss.



You could argue the same thing about a mugger on the street with his Lorcin .25.

1) Chances are they just want your wallet, they wont kill you.
2) Chances are if they shoot, they will miss.
3) Chances are, even if you are hit, it wont be a fatal shot.

Im sorry but Im still not taking those chances, and I would shoot the mugger.

I agree with you that the homeowner would be in the right, but at the same time, I dont think thats the argument to base it on.

Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:40:15 AM EST
You need to turn and run. It is a lose-lose situation for the guy ringing the doorbell.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:44:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By lloydkristmas:
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
Stupid shit like this is why anit's believe there will be blood in the street.

You need to ask what you would do if you didn't have a CCW on yourself. Chances are you'd haul ass from the home, so why having a gun on your person require you to engage?

Your on his property. For all you know he just got a call from his current wife/gf ex boyfriend and said he was coming to kill the home owner. Or perhaps he is a witness to a murder trial and has been told to be ready for retribution. Why is the homeowner being drawn down on, on his own property. Would you want to be going out to the car with your gun to head to the range and some nut with a CCW "draws down" on you in your own yard?


I follow your logic, this is basically the same thing I told him.

At the same time, when a gun is pointed in your face, where do you draw the line at what is reasonable and what isnt?

Theres a difference between walking to your car with an AR slung and opening your door pointing your shotgun at the face of whoever might be on the other side.


So... Does the same guy pull his smokewagon on a cop pointing a gun at him?

There are times when someone might point a gun at you when drawing your own is not prudent or lawful. How you feel about it? Not so important.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:46:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
Stupid shit like this is why anit's believe there will be blood in the street.

You need to ask what you would do if you didn't have a CCW on yourself. Chances are you'd haul ass from the home, so why having a gun on your person require you to engage?

Your on his property. For all you know he just got a call from his current wife/gf ex boyfriend and said he was coming to kill the home owner. Or perhaps he is a witness to a murder trial and has been told to be ready for retribution. Why is the homeowner being drawn down on, on his own property. Would you want to be going out to the car with your gun to head to the range and some nut with a CCW "draws down" on you in your own yard?


/thread

Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:53:35 AM EST

The homeowner wouldn't be in the wrong, the shooter would be. The only way the shooter would be clean, is if the homeowner directly threatened ("I'm gonna kill you right now, motherfucker!") or attempted to kill the shooter from the get-go. Then it would be self-defense.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 11:01:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 11:04:44 AM EST by omega62]
Without getting into the rest of it, I would just comment that anyone who opens their door and points a shotgun at the person on the porch for absolutely no reason is an idiot.

So your ex called and said her boyfriend is on his way over to kill you, and the salesman coincidentally shows up a few minutes later, and you think he is the boyfriend?

Then why open the door at all?

Why not leave the door closed and locked and call the police, explaining the situation to them and asking them to dispatch a unit?

I don't know Texas law, but I just think that is crazy.

Yes, if an intruder is IN your house, Castle Doctrine his ass FTMFW.

On your porch on the other side of a locked door? Hell no.

No reason to open the door and point a shotgun at him.

Call the cops and let them handle it.

ETA: And I'm pretty sure that is how the District Attorney is going to view that situation too.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 11:06:30 AM EST
I vote salesman gets cut in half about the time he clears leather.

Homeowner rides the lightning.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 11:53:27 AM EST
its called ther Castle Doctrine, the owner has a right to defend his property, he may have reasons unknown why the shotgun was pointed...if your dead all he has to say is He feared for his life, thats how it is in Florida....door salemen should have ID present/many bad guys do this to homeowners and gain entry..on the other end a distrught home owner should have No tresspassing signs, etc..this hypo questions could be debated forever//until a jury decides.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 1:20:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By ranbo1213:
its called ther Castle Doctrine, the owner has a right to defend his property, he may have reasons unknown why the shotgun was pointed...if your dead all he has to say is He feared for his life, thats how it is in Florida....door salemen should have ID present/many bad guys do this to homeowners and gain entry..on the other end a distrught home owner should have No tresspassing signs, etc..this hypo questions could be debated forever//until a jury decides.


You guys just like to think you can fire upon someone carte blanche(being the guy with the shot gun), just because they're on your property? By using deadly force, what was the threat? I'm willing to bet that the state is going to give you a run for your money.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 1:28:05 PM EST
Guy selling magazines would be right, homeowner would be wrong.

The salesman at the door was not a threat. When the homeowner pointed a weapon at him he posed a threat to the magazine salesman.

If the magazine salesman walked into the house uninvited then the homeowner would be within his rights.

But if the salesman is on the front steps and rang the bell the homeowner committed assault with a dangerous weapon.



Link Posted: 9/19/2009 1:35:01 PM EST
I voted that the homeowner was right.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 8:26:22 PM EST
So you're going to try and draw a firearm after someone already has a shotgun at your face. You were not invited, and willing to escalate the situation. Not only are you brave, but you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

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