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Posted: 8/20/2001 2:53:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2001 5:16:26 AM EDT by 45nut]
I have a quick question or two and I appreciate any help from ya'll. A friend who is also a retired LEO wants to sell his "as new, unfired" pre-ban Colt Car-15. It is verifiably pre-ban but it does have the restricted LEO stamp on it. My question is whether there's any legal reason he cannot transfer this rifle to me, a non-LEO? I think that as it is pre-ban, it is no different than any other pre-ban AR-15. One more thing...any thoughts on its value? Here are some details...16"bbl, flash hider, bayo lug, FT w/handle, 4pos. stock, unfired but no box, all factory ass. Colt. I'll know more tomorrow when I actually see it. TIA for your help, guys! Nut out.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 2:57:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 3:13:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2001 3:17:31 PM EDT by Bat21]
Gun show yesterday. Two Bushmaster's with the Export/Law Enforcement stamping on them, Brand new $800.00. First time I've see them at a gun show down here. I know these guys down here. Said get a letter from Sheriff Department and he will gladly sell them to me. Never read anything on a LEO transferring over to a non-law enforcement person. My son is a Deputy Sheriff and I'm the "Godfather" to the daughter of his friend, who is also a Deputy Sheriff, but is also a member of their SWAT team. I guess I'm to have to see what kind of regulations they go by. I have two Pre-bans so never gave it much thought. Their's doesn't necessarily have to be Pre-bans to have all of the very "Evil and Deadly" "Flash Suppressor/Compensator, Bayonet Lug and "God Forbid" a Collapsible Stock. Any body ever run across any news clippings of how many people to date in the U.S. have been killed with a Bayonet Lug, been bludgeoned to death with a collapsible stock or have died from wounds inflicted by a Flash Suppressor. Any fatal "Heart Attacks" caused just by accidently viewing the "Evil Features" all at once. Did I wander off the original post ? Anyway the rifle could have been manufactured yesterday with the stampings on it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 3:18:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 3:27:29 PM EDT
You're probably correct. They have asked me many times to join the "Auxiliaries" but my job won't allow for it. I wonder if they can purchase with the "Letter". Need to check into that.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 4:37:11 PM EDT
How did you verify its pre-ban status? If the manufacturer will give you a letter saying that it was actually manufactured as a complete rifle before the cutoff date in Sept. '94, you would probably be okay. If not, run. BATF will not bother to contact the manufacturer until long after you've been arrested, they'll take that LEO marking at face value. As far as getting a letterhead to own a LEO rifle as an 'auxiliary', I wouldn't. Even if you get a letter to buy an LEO rifle, you can still only legally own it if you are using it for official duty purposes. Are you likely to get arrested for this? Probably not, but if you already have some pre-bans, why take the risk? The feds are too unpredictable.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 5:13:56 PM EDT
Sorry, I should have been more clear. He/we are able to verify its pre-ban status by the serial number. And I'm sure it was an assembled rifle before the ban since its a Colt and originally LEO. All I'm worried about is any legal issues surrounding such a transfer of a known pre-ban weapon. I'm pretty sure that those LEO markings, prior to late 1994 (actually the markings weren't required until '95 according to the BATF web site), were merely put there to make Colt feel better. (Kinda like how Remington now has a policy to discourage/prevent sales of its PSS rifle to civies. A BOLT ACTION RIFLE FOR GOD'S SAKES!)
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 5:25:50 PM EDT
[b]One more thing...[/b] Could someone please give me a quickie tutorial with regard to "small pin/hole, large pin/hole" on Colt lowers? I only have Bushies and I don't know jack about the difference in Colts. I think there are advantages to one over the other? Please enlighten me. You won't believe how little $$$ he wants for this thing so provided it all checks out, I want to be able to buy it tomorrow before he heads off to see the dealers! Thanks again!!
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 5:43:54 PM EDT
45nut, later Colts (Blue Label and all post-bans) have trigger and hammer pins slightly larger in diameter than regular pins. This is intended to keep evil people from plugging in evil automatic parts. It also makes it harder to legitimately replace trigger parts as they all are non-standard hole and pin size. Older Colts are "large hole," which means the forward pivot pin is larger diameter than GI. Newer Colts and just about everyone else uses a "small hole." You can get adapters to fit large hole uppers to small hole lowers and vice versa.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 6:20:25 PM EDT
I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but a pre-ban stamped restricted law enforcement does not exist in my experience. Why would a gun be stamped restricted law enforcement only before the 1994 Assault Weapons ban went into effect. I've also be told by Colt that they didn't start stamping the LE guns until a few months after the ban went into effect. There may be a few LE guns that aren't stamped as such, but I'd love to see a gun that's pre-ban and stamped. I guess they were predicting the law would go into effect before it did? Bottom line is if it's stamped LE only don't be in possession of it unless you're a cop or a gun dealer.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 6:44:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2001 6:42:26 PM EDT by Landon]
I don't know if it is indeed a pre or a post... But I know sometimes gun makers marked items "Law Enforcement Only" before the ban... Remington Factory Folders are that way... Though they are perfectly legal to own, they are marked Law Enforcement Only... Another example is Winchester or Federal Factory +P+ ammo... Marked Law Enforcement Use Only... (Winchester marked their Subsonic 147 gr JHP's like that too!) So, while those things are marked that way, they are legal to own. I can't claim to know about the AR situation, but there is a precidence with unrestrictd items being marked that way. Another thing you should consider is 99% of LEO's (I have met anyway) don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to gun laws. I know guys who have been hassled over +P+ ammo, and one gun site had a story about a guy who was thrown in jail for 4 hours for posession of a "LEO" marked REM factory folder, while the badges tried to figure out if it was legal or not.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 6:56:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Landon: I don't know if it is indeed a pre or a post... But I know sometimes gun makers marked items "Law Enforcement Only" before the ban... Remington Factory Folders are that way... Though they are perfectly legal to own, they are marked Law Enforcement Only....
View Quote
When installed on a semi-auto Remington shotgun made after 1994, that folder is now indeed illegal.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 6:57:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 7:13:30 PM EDT
I wouldn't risk it, not worth the hassle.
Link Posted: 8/20/2001 9:11:47 PM EDT
Regardless of where the serial number falls, since it's stamped LEO only, I'd forget it unless you can get a letter from Colt saying it left the factory as an assembled 'assault rifle' prior to the ban, preferably with an explanation of why it's stamped LE only. I wouldn't stake my freedom on someone's serial number list when the gun is clearly stamped LE only.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 5:23:58 AM EDT
back up....anybody else have any insight? To those who have posted...thank you very much. I should get to take a look at this rifle in a few minutes and I'll let you know more about it. 'Nut
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 6:28:08 AM EDT
[b]Oops, turns out it is NOT a pre-ban[/b] Well, finally got a chance to look at the rifle and called Colt's to run the serial number. Turns out it IS a post-ban LE only rifle. Damn! Well, I guess that explains the markings, etc. Oh well, nothing lost and I got to handle a gorgeous CAR that does indeed appear to be new/unfired. Thanks everybody for your advice/suggestions/opinions/etc. 'Nut
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 8:07:13 AM EDT
Agree with sf46 No prebans marked with LEO cpermd
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 7:22:20 PM EDT
45nut, Hey buddy, good thing you checked into the issue before getting yourself into a jam. If you can't afford a pre-ban, just buy a post-ban that has a muzzle break attached. You'll still have a cool looking rifle, and who really needs a bayonet lug?
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 7:53:56 PM EDT
Yea, I've got a BM w/brake (although I don't know why since .223 has so little recoil). It does look pretty cool. I've never wanted to buy a pre-ban simply because I couldn't see paying the extra change for a lug and FH. But, when the seller told me he wanted to sell this one for $950.00!!!!!!!, I thought, "what the hell, I'll re-sell it if I don't want it, for that price!" He's a good guy, ex-LEO, Nam vet, etc. Just not really up on the in's and out's of gun laws (getting to be damned hard for anyone to be). Anyhoo, he bought this rifle from a LEO buddy and now HE'S stuck with it. Hopefully once he explains what happened, he'll get his $$$ back. Interesting side note.... This rifle is no longer on "paper" after at least two transfers since the PD. All have been private transfers with the last recorded one being from dealer to the PD. It still ain't worth screwin' with but it is fun to puzzle the possiblities THAT presents.
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