I am in an e-mail argument with a bunch of liberals about gun control... Give me a response to this... We were arguing about owning an AK47...

I am not so worried about a terrorist getting a weapon like this, you are right, they will always find a way.  My concern is not to have it so readily available for the average person.  You know the one that may have a screw loose and take the gun to a mall or a highway overpass or a school and rapidly shoot everyone in sight.  There is no good reason to have a gun like this available.  Whatever good that may come out of having it available (not that I can see ANY good) is far outweighed by the bad that can come out of it. As much as I am sure you would be a very responsible person with a weapon like this, there are just too many looney tunes out there that will take this weapon and use it for evil. Ok.... you say there are guns out there now that can be abused....but honestly Phillip, why do we need another one?

Finally......how sporting is it for you to shoot a dear with a rapid fire weapon?  How good do you have to be to spray a general area with bullets and hit a deer? Then do you actually try to eat the deer, riddled with bullets?  Also, I was married for 12 years to an avid deer hunter.  The last thing I want is for that drunken sod to be able to shoot a weapon like that!  Being orignally from Michigan, I would say DRUNK deer hunting is pretty much a norm. Scary!

The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting.

Everything you need is right here - GunCite

It sounds like they are refering to full auto weapons. This makes their argument invalid because such weapons are still highly regulated.

ktm500

Quoted: ....but honestly Phillip, why do we need another one?

It isn't about need!  If I ever needed something like this  ::holds FAL::  it would be a pretty shitty time to start shopping for one, wouldn't it?

Guns are not weapons they are tools.  What makes a weapon a weapon is if it is used as a weapon.  A hammer is a tool until I smash someones head in with it and then it is a weapon.  Same with guns.  The problem is not the tool being used but the person using the tool as a weapon.

We need an FAQ to respond to every anti's whine about firearms. Our kung fu must be strong.

Edit: How about appealing to their sense of "free thought", something every liberal thinks they do? Do they want the .gov to think for them? Do they want the .gov to regulate what should happen in their own home? (that should get 'em) Well if you don't want the .gov to infringe on their right to do what they want in their home (no matter how wierd we may find it), don't you dare try to do the same to me. Fair is fair.

I haven't had the chance to use that one in an argument yet...

I had a friend in college who was a gun control freak.  He spoke a lot about needing more laws but was rather ignorant of the laws in place.  Now he was also a hot rod fanatic.  He enjoyed cars as much as I enjoy weapons.   One of my typical responses to his ranting would be that cars do not need to go over 75 mph.  Anyone that drives faster than that is an accident waiting to happen.  The speed limit is 70 so why do we need to go faster than that.  My other favorite was that red cars should be outlawed.  Statistics show that peolple with red cars tend to drive faster and have more accidents.  Of course we would have to have preban red cars for those that had already purchased them but automobile makers could no longer make red cars.

Sounds silly doesn't it...unfortunately, most people who are for gun control don't really understand it.  Ask them to give you a response as to why the government should not outlaw red cars and vehicles that go over 75 mph.  Wouldn't the roads be safer?  

Good Luck

Quoted: I am not so worried about a terrorist getting a weapon like this, you are right, they will always find a way.

True enough.

My concern is not to have it so readily available for the average person.  You know the one that may have a screw loose and take the gun to a mall or a highway overpass or a school and rapidly shoot everyone in sight.

The wacko who would shoot from an overpass or in a mall is NOT the average person.

We have some 200 million+ guns owned by about 80 million people.  Obviously, the average gun owner is not the type of person who should evoke such irrational fear.

There is a tendancy by those who are outside of the "gun culture" to equate guns with bad guys.  This is a product of the evening news.  And like the terrorists, criminals will always find a way to get guns.  England is proof of that.

There is no good reason to have a gun like this available.

When the exercise of a right must be justified by "need", and denied if someone in authority doesn't recognize the "need", it is no longer a right, but a privilege that may be revoked on a whim.  Our Bill of Rights must not be subjected to such arbitrary judgments, lest our nation become something less.

Whatever good that may come out of having it available (not that I can see ANY good) is far outweighed by the bad that can come out of it.

Opinion.  Statistically, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than all of my guns combined.

Considering the fact that American citizens use firearms more than 2 million times a year to defend themselves from criminals, good does indeed come from gun ownership.

As much as I am sure you would be a very responsible person with a weapon like this,

Blatant condescension!

there are just too many looney tunes out there that will take this weapon and use it for evil.

As noted above, the VAST majority of gun owners are NOT looney tunes, and disarming law-abiding citizens does NOT reduce crime.  Rather, it creates a victim class and makes the job of criminals easier and safer.

Ok.... you say there are guns out there now that can be abused....but honestly Phillip, why do we need another one?

Need?  What about want?  50,000+ killed each year on the road.  Why do we need cars that will exceed the speed limit?  Besides, I can't protect my wife and daughters from criminals with a fast car.

Finally......how sporting is it for you to shoot a dear with a rapid fire weapon?

I would NOT shoot my wife!!

How good do you have to be to spray a general area with bullets and hit a deer? Then do you actually try to eat the deer, riddled with bullets?

Hunters do not "spray."

Also, I was married for 12 years to an avid deer hunter.  The last thing I want is for that drunken sod to be able to shoot a weapon like that!  Being orignally from Michigan, I would say DRUNK deer hunting is pretty much a norm. Scary!

I'm sorry for her past experoience with a drunken buffoon, but to paint me with the same broad brush offends me.  And, as noted above, anyone intent on criminal activity can get what they want.  They don't care about the laws.  That's what defines them as criminals.

Have fun!

I know I am arguing with a sheep... I have shamelessly borrowed some of your text...
This is my response...

You will be lucky if you get one or two shots off at a deer before it runs like hell. In Nebraska, I use a 5 round clip for hunting. Thats the law. One cannot simply spray the woods with bullets and expect a dead deer to fall out. Drinking while hunting does not mix, just as drinking while driving or opperating any piece of machinery. Drunk deer hunting is not the norm.

Fully automatic weapons are strictly regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934. You cannot walk into a gun shop and buy a machine gun, there purchase is strictly regulated by the ATF.

Convicted felons, or people with mental problems are already restricted from purchasing a gun. If you want to buy a gun in California, you must submit to a background check, and wait ten days to take delivery on a gun.

The wacko who would shoot from an overpass or in a mall is NOT the average person. There are 200 million+ guns owned by about 80 million people in the US. Obviously, the average gun owner is not the type of person who should evoke such irrational fear.Statistically, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than all of my guns combined.

There is a tendancy by those who are outside of the "gun culture" to equate guns with bad guys. This is a product of the evening news. And like the terrorists, criminals will always find a way to get guns. England is proof of that.Considering the fact that American citizens use firearms more than 2 million times a year to defend themselves from criminals, good does indeed come from gun ownership.

This article is an exerpt from Dave Grossman's new book, On Combat. On Combat is not on Amazon.com yet, but there is ordering info available on his web site.

One of the COPP members (James) posted this to the COPP-Discussion group. (Central Ohio Pink Pistols) thought you'd allenjoy it. Possibly even use some of the wisdom in there to refute the anti-gunner.

James wrote:

I found this essay on Blackfive.net, which is a blog authored by people serving in the military. Although it's a bit lengthy I'd like to ask you to read it to the end, and see if it describes you a little bit.

On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves
By Dave Grossman

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."... If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial. The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.
Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs. Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking.

When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke
Here is the point I like to emphasize; especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust, or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones. I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth. Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb post- 9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth.

This is a response I got...

"I still say there is NO REASON to have an assault weapon.  What the hell will you use it for?"

These people are in there own little world...

Good article about the sheep though.

1) Ask them if they are "Pro-Choice"...If they are, then tell them you have the RIGHT to
    CHOOSE what kind of weapon to buy (Pro-Choice

2) Tell them DOCTORS kill more people (malpractice) than those who use guns in crimes
    Do they want do ban doctors?

3) AW's only used in 2% of crimes.

4) They drive a car with an "automatic" transmission, don't they?
    You can kill alot more people with your car than you could with your AW!!

Try those...drive 'em NUTS!!!!  

When crime is actually, no-BS, reduced to zero I'd consider getting rid of my guns.
naaaaaaaaaah, not even then.

The easiest way to confront someone who believes that the 2nd is obsolete, or only applies to certain guns and/or hunting is to apply the same logic to the other civil rights.

If one can conclude that an AK has no place in civil society, then one can also conclude that 'gansta' rap must share the same fate.  If an AKs availability is just too risky as someone might 'go off', then isn't the need for a warrant for searches also just too risky.  After all, most police 'know' when someone has something to hide, regardless of probable cause.  Shouldn't the safety of society come first, and the officer be allowed to do what it takes...

Because its our right not a privilage.  Some day we may need adequate firearms to defend our land or ourselves.  We live in a Free Country and with that freedom comes responsibility.  There are some people who cannot handle that and flip out and commit crimes against other people.  This will always happen reguardless of what laws are in place.  But the 99.9998% of the people that are sensible citizens should not lose their rights, nor the ability to defend against threats.

this is a good site as well: www.a-human-right.com/

EDIT: I like what Oleg Volk says on the "why have real guns" page:

"So why did I buy a weapon instead of a toy for sport? The motivator was the realization that I may soon not have the choice of getting armed."

Arguing with a liberal is much like mud wrestling with a pig.
Pretty soon you realize you are covered in mud, and the pig likes it.


-LS

A gun is a tool.  Honest citizens have the right to own tools.  A gun does not kill.  It does not matter what type of gun I own, or want to own.  I am an honest, law-abiding citizen and owning a particular type of gun will not make me into a bad person.  Your definition of 'sporting' or what is 'legitimate' is just that , your own.  Who put you in charge?  Why should I have to live by your rules, I'm a free American.  You have a choice not to own a firearm, I should also have that same choice.  The type of gun I own is based on freedom to own, not what someone else says.

Send her pictures of the people killed by their own governments in Nazi death camps, Stalanist Russia, Cambodia, Somalia, Rowanda, Iraq, Waco TX.  "That's why!"  

The risk of getting killed in a Colombine incident is far outweighed by the risk of getting slaughtered by your own tyrannical government.  

I'm sure someone here can provide you with the statistics in just this century.  I'm guessing it's about half a million to 150 Million.

This argument may make you sound kind of nutty, until you provide the proof:  Governments slaughtering citizens is the norm, not the exception throughout history.

People in the US have been sheltered by the 2nd for so long, that they forget why it is there.

The hell there isn't a need for an assault weapon. How about genocide and civil war as reasons? It's a short flight to Africa or Yugoslavia. WWII was only 2 generations ago. The cival war was only 130 years ago. Civilians need to be able to arm themselves with sufficient force to become an army. We have not entered and never will enter an age where we can guarantee peaceful political solutions to man's problems.

Why would anyone trust the military, the national guard, and the police with these and more weapons but not trust themselves? Those forces are made up from ordinary citizens. As a sane person, it is your responsiblity to own the best weapon you can get your hands on.

The fact is these people are too afraid of the real dangers to acknowledge them. They want to hide all signs of danger in order to bury their heads in the sand.

TS WILL HTF someday. Maybe sooner than you would like.

Quoted: Send her pictures of the people killed by their own governments in Nazi death camps, Stalanist Russia, Cambodia, Somalia, Rowanda, Iraq, Waco TX.  "That's why!"   The risk of getting killed in a Colombine incident is far outweighed by the risk of getting slaughtered by your own tyrannical government.   I'm sure someone here can provide you with the statistics in just this century.  I'm guessing it's about half a million to 150 Million. This argument may make you sound kind of nutty, until you provide the proof:  Governments slaughtering citizens is the norm, not the exception throughout history. People in the US have been sheltered by the 2nd for so long, that they forget why it is there.

Yep. AND if it's a "liberal" you're "arguing" with... there's a page on DU in the Gungeon, talking about how "W." is eevill and how if those conservative nuts get in again, liberals may need to re-think their stance on firearms

That should give ya some ideas ;) (with regard to how they think ;)

Quoted: The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting.

+1

I don't care if you want to own an AK-47 to pleasure yourself by sitting on it.

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE GREATEST LAND IN THE WORLD PROTECTS IT AND THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL ANY BLUE HELMETS ARE GOING TO TAKE THAT FROM ME!!

FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS

3) AW's only used in 2% of crimes.


No, that FAR overstates the use of "AW's".  They are used in less than 2% of GUN crimes, not all crimes.

Banning a gun based on the possibility that someone may misuse it is like banning free speech because someone might shout "FIRE" in a crowded theater...

first of all, our rights shouldnt be dependent on what some lunatic MIGHT do.

second, I dont own an AK to hunt. In fact I dont even hunt at all.

I own an AK because I like the design and they are cool and I like to collect and shoot guns.

Quoted: The 2nd Amendment isn't about deer hunting.

+1