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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/22/2005 3:10:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 3:23:19 AM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:17:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 3:33:31 AM EDT by JarheadChiro]
Industrial VideoFluoroscopy, might.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:27:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:44:02 AM EDT
I know of someone who might be able to help.

Quad City Testing Lab
(800) 391-8501

Rod Reinholdt, President

They do various types of non-destructive testing.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:50:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:44:09 AM EDT
The testing will probably be more expensive than the ammo.

$10.00 a round for 5.56 anyone?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 2:20:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 2:27:39 AM EDT by Keith_J]
Chambered? Not likely. Unless something were added to make the propellent more radioopaque, the necessary energy to image through the chamber walls will washout and backscatter even the best film radiography.

Ackley was discussing low density loads. And a much better theory on "pressure wave detonation" in such loads is actually secondary ignition. The initial primer detonation causes the bullet to move but not enough to cause full ignition and the bullet stops. Then the remaining powder reignites but since the bullet is stopped and the combustion volume is high, burn rate of the now reduced deterrent propellent is far from normal and excessive pressure ensues.

While the below image shows this in a pressure trace, it is from a light load of propellent that is too slow for the bullet and case capacity. But it shows that things can happen.


Remember, the magic of smokless propellents is from the burn geometry AND deterrent coating. It is well know that propellents which are mechanically damaged and lose the deterrent can burn much differently. Bullseye has no such deterrent for example.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:57:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:17:12 AM EDT
I've radiographed Glaser Safety Slugs, but you could not see the propellant. I have a polymer-cased 5.56 I may bring in and Fluoro it tomorrow.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:36:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By uxb:
I've radiographed Glaser Safety Slugs, but you could not see the propellant. I have a polymer-cased 5.56 I may bring in and Fluoro it tomorrow.



You should be able to fluoro PCA neat. But I doubt in any chamber.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:26:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:40:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:42:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:08:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 1:19:01 AM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:56:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:57:10 AM EDT by Keith_J]

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I could only summize that at the high cyclic rate the powder slammed fwd against the bullet and away from the primer, when combined with a weak primer charge the fire could not reach the powder and would not ignite.



that's what Ackley was writing about, switching to a magnum primer solved the high pressure signs he was seeing. the compacted powder charge would ignite only partially and have only the room between the base of the case and the rear of the charge in which to expand causing the high pressure. the charge was having to fight the plug of powder behind the bullet to expand. firing the rounds muzzle down kept the powder from igniting all together.

I assume the poly case would be more dense than the powder.

ultrasound? thermal?

a cut away barrel and upper with radio luminescent powder and a papier mache' case? throw me a frickin bone here.




How about positron emission tomography? Since there are quite a few surface hydroxyls on propellents, one could attach something like flourine 18 to propellent and image the position of the granules with 3d gamma camera.

When F18 naturally fissons, it releases a positron, an anti-electron. Anti-matter, if you will. Since this universe is dominated by electrons, this positron has no problem finding one and enters the "spiral of death", converting both into two equal and opposite gamma rays which WILL penetrate steel of the chamber. Since each positron produces two gamma rays at exactly the same time, the gamma camera array finds the source and designates this voxel (like a pixel but 3-d) as a source. Measure over a length of time and you get a greyscale 3-d image.



Link Posted: 8/25/2005 3:23:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:58:45 AM EDT
Nope PET will not work unless you can figure out how to inject Radiactive Iodine into the case...

PET is Positron Emission Tomography and basically is used only to view Active or non active Tumors in cancer patients.... I have had two of them one great one not so great!
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 7:24:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Nope PET will not work unless you can figure out how to inject Radiactive Iodine into the case...

PET is Positron Emission Tomography and basically is used only to view Active or non active Tumors in cancer patients.... I have had two of them one great one not so great!



Iodine isn't "hot" enough for this kind of imaging. I-124 has a half life of 4.2 days where F-18 has a half life of 109 minutes. Shorter half life is desireable because it makes a short "exposure" and reducing the need for heavy "doping". It also makes cleanup easier...you still need some means of containing the propellent gases for 9 half lifes.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:10:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:33:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
propellant gases? I wasn't planning on firing the round. did I miss something?



My mistake. It would be best if these doped rounds were not fired for at least 9 half lives. Even then, there would be some gamma emission.

Yes, it is very easy to tag most anything. We are not talking about anything more than a few ppm of tracer. The gamma goes through nearly any material.

Now the real problem...finding a lab that would do it. It would have to be done to the propellent outside of the case. Most come from the cyclotron in solution, usually water. Just a drop of this on a measured quantity of propellent, mixed well and dried over dessicant/vacuum jar and then charging the case would work to contain the isotope. Then manipulate the cartridge and take the images. Since gamma works well on photographic film, a contact image would probably work. You would need to measure exposure carefully and it might take a few hours. Gamma camera would be a better solution.
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