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Posted: 8/20/2017 7:34:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 8:29:01 PM EST by Hollywood_Shooter]
I'm looking for suggestions for an outdoor wireless wired security camera network.

This is for a residential complex, and I believe we would need as many as 22 cameras to cover the entrance and exit areas, as well as the front and rear of the individual units.  I know Costco / Home Depot etc have affordable multi-camera systems, but I think we might need something more substantial than that.

Because of the wide area that needs to be covered over multiple physical structures, cabling to a single central recorder would not be very practical.   Ideally the cameras would transmit to a network that would record to a cloud based system.   Wiring for power is possible, but problematic as well.....though I realize the other option is batteries, and then the cameras would have to be accessed for battery replacement....also not ideal....

OK so based on initial comments, it would be a large wired NVR system....

I'm open to suggestions, and links are appreciated.  Thanks


ETA:  I don't know anything about security cameras or networks...this is all new to me, so explain it like I'm an idiot, thanks.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:36:48 PM EST
My suggestion is not to go wireless.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:41:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Undefined:
My suggestion is not to go wireless.
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Why?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:42:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Undefined:
My suggestion is not to go wireless.
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Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:43:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 7:44:58 PM EST by alphabavo]
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Why?
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Undefined:
My suggestion is not to go wireless.
Why?
Chances are, you will not be able to cover the distances involved in a residential complex without signal degradation, interference could also be an issue. The wireless units I have seen had difficulty with a large house, Wireless routers seemed to interfere with a couple as well.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:44:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 11:40:43 PM EST by Paul]
[personal attack removed - warning issued - Paul]
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:45:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 11:41:13 PM EST by Paul]
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Originally Posted By HammerForged:
[personal attack removed - warning issued - Paul]
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I think this was meant for another thread.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:46:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By HammerForged:
What the fuck is wrong with you?

You referring to the fact that I have a huge thread full of videos of criminals, much like the one being talked about in this thread, being killed by police?

How does your stupid '17er mind equate that to me masturbating over the suffering of some innocent kids?

I swear to God I think some of you think I'm some fat sweaty loser who surfs the internet jacking off to Al Qaeda beheading videos all day. Would it shock you if I told you I just finished treating a Dallas Cowboys football player at my office? Or that I have three little kids and a supermodel hot wife? A safe full of SBRs and suppressors and a new Corvette in the garage?

Stay in your lane newb, and don't fucking accuse the paid-membership of being serial killers.
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Uhhhhhhhh.........WAT?   I think you're in the wrong thread.  Please step away from your keyboard.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:49:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Why?
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Undefined:
My suggestion is not to go wireless.
Why?
Because unless you are planning to put in high performance directional antennas and building this out with the network first, and cameras second, you're not going to succeed.

To put it in other terms - most of the off the shelf wireless cameras won't successfully work across the distance of my house, let alone a "residential complex"
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:52:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By alphabavo:


Chances are, you will not be able to cover the distances involved in a residential complex without signal degradation, interference could also be an issue. The wireless units I have seen had difficulty with a large house, Wireless routers seemed to interfere with a couple as well.
View Quote
OK...good to know.   So, if I have multiple structures, there's no way to run cables to one central DVR.  So I'd have to have a DVR on each structure?  Or are there other options for a cloud based system?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:54:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 7:55:43 PM EST by Hollywood_Shooter]
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Originally Posted By Undefined:


Because unless you are planning to put in high performance directional antennas and building this out with the network first, and cameras second, you're not going to succeed.

To put it in other terms - most of the off the shelf wireless cameras won't successfully work across the distance of my house, let alone a "residential complex"
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Are there more substantial "pro level" units that will, as opposed to the costco type packages?  Or you're saying none of them will cut it?

Or, what's involved in "high performance directional antennas" ? 
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:55:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
OK...good to know.   So, if I have multiple structures, there's no way to run cables to one central DVR.  So I'd have to have a DVR on each structure?  Or are there other options for a cloud based system?
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Originally Posted By alphabavo:


Chances are, you will not be able to cover the distances involved in a residential complex without signal degradation, interference could also be an issue. The wireless units I have seen had difficulty with a large house, Wireless routers seemed to interfere with a couple as well.
OK...good to know.   So, if I have multiple structures, there's no way to run cables to one central DVR.  So I'd have to have a DVR on each structure?  Or are there other options for a cloud based system?
LOTS of good information Here courtesy of @TheGreyMan.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:55:20 PM EST
NVR for each complex. Beam feed from NVR to a central location? Possible ?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:56:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By zoe17:
NVR for each complex. Beam feed from NVR to a central location? Possible ?
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explain beam feed please?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:57:52 PM EST
Ubiquity rockets set up as your aps and receivers with tough switches to handle the cameras. If longer distances are required you can build a backbone out of airfiber units. There's a fairly large municipality near me with 700+ cameras set up on this equipment. It's as stable as wireless is gonna get.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:58:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Are there more substantial "pro level" units that will, as opposed to the costco type packages?  Or you're saying none of them will cut it?

Or, what's involved in "high performance directional antennas" ? 
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Undefined:


Because unless you are planning to put in high performance directional antennas and building this out with the network first, and cameras second, you're not going to succeed.

To put it in other terms - most of the off the shelf wireless cameras won't successfully work across the distance of my house, let alone a "residential complex"
Are there more substantial "pro level" units that will, as opposed to the costco type packages?  Or you're saying none of them will cut it?

Or, what's involved in "high performance directional antennas" ? 
You build your network first, then hang your POE cameras off of it.

Go find a network geek in your area and have him survey the property and give you some options.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:00:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Johnnyb01:
Ubiquity rockets set up as your aps and receivers with tough switches to handle the cameras. If longer distances are required you can build a backbone out of airfiber units. There's a fairly large municipality near me with 700+ cameras set up on this equipment. It's as stable as wireless is gonna get.
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I 2nd the Ubiquity recommendation.

Not cheap, but good to go.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:04:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By alphabavo:


LOTS of good information Here courtesy of @TheGreyMan.
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reading as fast as I can....thanks
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:06:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 11:41:44 PM EST by Paul]
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Originally Posted By HammerForged:
[personal attack removed - warning issued - Paul].
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someone has been drinking again

ibtl and ban
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:06:37 PM EST
If you have the requirements that you say that you have call a professional security company to give you a survey and quote for the work. 22 or more wireless cameras are not going to work well at the distances you are talking about. Had a system installed at my firehall, wireless at first, traded it very quickly for a wired system which has a digital recorder and works very well. (now 5 years) 8 cameras. Add the cost to your tenants lease/rent.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:07:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Undefined:
I 2nd the Ubiquity recommendation.

Not cheap, but good to go.
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Originally Posted By Undefined:
Originally Posted By Johnnyb01:
Ubiquity rockets set up as your aps and receivers with tough switches to handle the cameras. If longer distances are required you can build a backbone out of airfiber units. There's a fairly large municipality near me with 700+ cameras set up on this equipment. It's as stable as wireless is gonna get.
I 2nd the Ubiquity recommendation.

Not cheap, but good to go.
Is this where I should be looking?
https://www.ubnt.com/products/#default
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:08:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By buffman:
If you have the requirements that you say that you have call a professional security company to give you a survey and quote for the work. 22 or more wireless cameras are not going to work well at the distances you are talking about. Had a system installed at my firehall, wireless at first, traded it very quickly for a wired system which has a digital recorder and works very well. (now 5 years) 8 cameras. Add the cost to your tenants lease/rent.
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Yes, I will be calling a professional, but I wanted to edumacate myself here first so I know what to ask
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:09:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 8:09:34 PM EST by Drugmanrx]
Most systems only support up to 4 wireless cams due to limitations.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:13:07 PM EST
Wireless is a terrible idea. The connections are not reliable, easily forcibly disconnected, and easily hacked into.

Your internal/wireless network should be completely segmented from your camera network.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:23:25 PM EST
the wireless traffic would be a nightmare with that constant traffic...
the channel coordination would require some serious planning, else suffer horrible degradation in available bandwidth per camera

remember, those cameras are pushing traffic all the time.. not like your ipad that does it in spurts where it's easy to share air time and bandwidth.


i'd seriously go wired if you want the system to actually work and not constantly cause you headaches. you'd get to a wired system eventually, you either do it in the beginning or spend a few hundred hours troubleshooting problems and end up wiring it later..
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:26:45 PM EST
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Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
Wireless is a terrible idea. The connections are not reliable, easily forcibly disconnected, and easily hacked into.

Your internal/wireless network should be completely segmented from your camera network
.
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Please explain?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:42:22 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Please explain?
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
Wireless is a terrible idea. The connections are not reliable, easily forcibly disconnected, and easily hacked into.

Your internal/wireless network should be completely segmented from your camera network
.
Please explain?
Invite 21 friends over.

Have each of them connect to your wireless network.

Have each of them go to YouTube or Xfinity or Netflix and try to watch something at the same time.

It will become very obvious how hopeless the idea of running 22 cameras on wireless is.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:44:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 11:43:05 PM EST by Paul]
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Originally Posted By HammerForged:
[personal attack removed - warning issued - Paul]
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this is Mother Trucker copypasta level goodness
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:48:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Please explain?
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You want to have your cameras on a separate physical network(or a separate virtual network) from the rest of your network, so that they cannot be accessed from other computers on the network, or the internet.

I am a fan of the NVR from Security Camera Warehouse. They have their own power over ethernet switch built into the back of the DVR, so that you don't need to buy any additional hardware, and it takes care of segmenting the network for you. You simply have to run one cable to each camera, and that handles both the power and the data.

To simplify it, you can one one ethernet cable to each building from a main building, and put a PoE switch inside each building that you run the cameras for that building into.

Can you give us an mspaint of the complex layout?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:24:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Undefined:


Invite 21 friends over.

Have each of them connect to your wireless network.

Have each of them go to YouTube or Xfinity or Netflix and try to watch something at the same time.

It will become very obvious how hopeless the idea of running 22 cameras on wireless is.
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OK, gotcha.  Thanks
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:27:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
OK, gotcha.  Thanks
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Originally Posted By Hollywood_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Undefined:


Invite 21 friends over.

Have each of them connect to your wireless network.

Have each of them go to YouTube or Xfinity or Netflix and try to watch something at the same time.

It will become very obvious how hopeless the idea of running 22 cameras on wireless is.
OK, gotcha.  Thanks
Just to add to that....

Most moderate to high end cameras are pushing more data than a Netflix or YouTube stream.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:12:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 11:21:57 PM EST by Hollywood_Shooter]
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Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
You want to have your cameras on a separate physical network(or a separate virtual network) from the rest of your network, so that they cannot be accessed from other computers on the network, or the internet.

I am a fan of the NVR from Security Camera Warehouse. They have their own power over ethernet switch built into the back of the DVR, so that you don't need to buy any additional hardware, and it takes care of segmenting the network for you. You simply have to run one cable to each camera, and that handles both the power and the data.

To simplify it, you can one one ethernet cable to each building from a main building, and put a PoE switch inside each building that you run the cameras for that building into.

Can you give us an mspaint of the complex layout?
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Some of my best work :

Attachment Attached File


So we'd want to cover the front doors on the street side, as well as anything that goes through the walk through gate or the drive through gate, the entire motor court, and the front doors of the rear facing units....basically the whole property.   The motor court is more narrow than my MS Paint diagram would have you believe, and we would NOT be able to mount anything on the (red) security wall facing inward.  Any cameras would have to be mounted on the (orange) buildings.  To cover the motor court, and be able to see both the front and rear facing garages, I suspect we would need 8 cameras just for that....1 at each corner of each building, facing inward.

8 for the motor court
4 for the street side front units
4 for the front of the rear facing units
2 for the walkways at the sides of the rear facing units
1 for the mailbox area
1 facing the front gates from the mailbox area
1 facing the intercoms

--------
21 cameras ?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:14:42 PM EST
Might want to ask over in the safe/security forum.
Click
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:22:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By zoe17:
NVR for each complex. Beam feed from NVR to a central location? Possible ?
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I like the one-NVR-per-complex idea.

Each complex probably won't require more cameras than a relatively inexpensive NVR can accommodate.

You really don't even need to "beam" live video from each NVR to any other location - Just let 'em run and record. If there's an incident that requires reviewing video, you can go to that complex and copy the video on to a portable drive.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:38:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 11:41:16 PM EST by chrismartin]
I use ipconfigure ESM with around 760+ carmeras across 34 sites.
All POE wired IP cameras (multi vendor, axis, Panasonic, Sony, hikvision, pelco, etc) however the system itself doesn't care if it's wired or wireless.
The system is centrally managed with an "archive server" at each physical location.
That keeps the data local to the physical site, but allows web browser access to the entire system via a single web page.

They also have a new system called orchid that is also distributed, but can use smaller "servers". I use orchid at home on a raspberry pi "server" and record 7 IP cameras. Works great. Orchid can also do servers at each location and they have a central management server. Runs with most newer cameras that support ONVIF and H.264 RTSP streaming.

If I were tasked with your project, I'd get Orchid, run archive servers at each location with their management server and probably a bunch of low cost hikvision cameras. If the budget is there, Axis cameras with light finder for outdoor use. Light finder is amazing. Very low light, but full color.

https://www.ipconfigure.com

They are a US company too.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:46:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 4:48:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 5:33:54 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
This is what I would advise.

That's a big project.
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Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By Paul:
Suggestion: hire a professional for a consult if for nothing else.

I'd put out a request for information and get bids from a few professionals. You're going to need a complex mixture of lens, housing, mountings, network wiring, recording, archiving, and monitoring equipment.
This is what I would advise.

That's a big project.
Out of curiosity, how much would everything cost ballpark? Easily over $15k? 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 12:56:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 6:55:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:


Easily.

Think of it as four separate systems, likely with local recording in each building. That's probably 4-5k/building (with roughly a 50/50 split between hardware and installation labor)

And it could easily be more expensive than that, depending on the hardware.
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Bldg.'s A and B are linked by the roof that covers the mail box area, so theoretically we might be able to get away with (3) systems (?)
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 12:03:07 PM EST
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