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Posted: 5/18/2001 7:55:16 AM EDT
What a joke. Why not just give them out in a gumball machine!!!!
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 7:58:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 8:00:11 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Next time you find yourself facing a life threatening situation don't try to save yourself and whom ever may be with you just ride it out and die. Surrender to who? Are we at war with China? Nobody told me!
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 8:02:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 8:02:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 8:05:06 AM EDT
chinesse pilot shows e-mail address. .........
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 8:06:14 AM EDT
my mistake, Flying cross and meritorious conduct medal. Oh yeah, I'm an ass. Ok, I shouldn't rag on the guy for saving himself and his crew, relax, a little sarcasm won't kill anyone. MY POINT IS, does the guy really deserve a medal for just doing his job? This is as bad as the 3 capturees in Bosnia that rec'd 2 or 3 medals for getting captured. What this is -and don't fool youself into thinking otherwise- is SPIN by the President and the Defense Department to make themselves look good. It cheapens every previous recipient of that medal.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 8:21:30 AM EDT
Clinton would have given him the MoH and trotted the pilot every time he wanted to make a speech. GunLvr
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 8:29:49 AM EDT
At the very least they should have gone on a hunger strike after being captured and imprisoned by the communist chinese. What did they do to protest their detention? Not a damn thing. Maybe Waddle should get a medal for NOT killing more innocent Japanese than he did. Wheres the Honor anymore.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 9:10:04 AM EDT
Colonel Chink: You smile big for Chinee version of Survivor TV show, or you work in factory make toys for Burger King. Airman dumbass: I feel stressed (pulls out card) Colonel Chink: Stress? I work for 2 years translating plans for space-base neutron bomb to sell to Saddam, and you think you stress? Airman dumbass: I'm missing 'Will and Grace'.... I'll do anything you want. I'll say anything you want. I'll suck your little noodle. Please let me go! Colonel Chink: Ahhhh so, that different story. We let you go now. You big American hero back home. We talk to our friend Bubba, he fix you up with fat intern hokay? ------------------ ROCK and ROLL!!! [url]http://www.mp3.com/2mps[/url]
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 9:10:42 AM EDT
These awards are givin out in combat where's the honer in surrendering, and praying to god they don't kill or torture you. all this does is make us FEEL GOOD about what we did they did there jobs they did not do anything special but there jobs.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 9:26:08 AM EDT
If performance above and beyond what is expected of the average pilot is just doing your duty then why give medals at all? Maybe a DFC was over doing it maybe a simple Air Medal would suffice. Awards are given in the context of the conflict/situation. There was a time when you needed 30 consectutive not cumulative days in combat to receive a CIB. When the 82nd AB Div. went to Grenada every member of every battalion that went got a CIB whether they fired a shot in anger or not. I personaly know a guy who got one and never left Ft. Bragg. There are many combat infantrymen that refused Purple Hearts because their "minor" wounds paled in comparison to the devastating, crippling wounds that other men received. Audie Murphy was just doing the job of an infantryman I guess he did'nt deserve to be this countrys most decorated soldier. Ticonderoga This topic is a stinker. You picked the wrong fight to fight. Lt. Osborne and his Co-Pilot deserve whatever the Navy says they deserve. There aren't many pilots that could do what they did. They were very lucky and the Gods smiled on them. If you don't think they're heros you may feel differently if you were in the plane with your life in his hands.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 9:43:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 9:55:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By uncle buck: If performance above and beyond what is expected of the average pilot is just doing your duty then why give medals at all? Maybe a DFC was over doing it maybe a simple Air Medal would suffice. Awards are given in the context of the conflict/situation. There was a time when you needed 30 consectutive not cumulative days in combat to receive a CIB. When the 82nd AB Div. went to Grenada every member of every battalion that went got a CIB whether they fired a shot in anger or not. I personaly know a guy who got one and never left Ft. Bragg. There are many combat infantrymen that refused Purple Hearts because their "minor" wounds paled in comparison to the devastating, crippling wounds that other men received. Audie Murphy was just doing the job of an infantryman I guess he did'nt deserve to be this countrys most decorated soldier. Ticonderoga This topic is a stinker. You picked the wrong fight to fight. Lt. Osborne and his Co-Pilot deserve whatever the Navy says they deserve. There aren't many pilots that could do what they did. They were very lucky and the Gods smiled on them. If you don't think they're heros you may feel differently if you were in the plane with your life in his hands.
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My dad was on the Forrestal during Vietnam. Which meant that he was only in Vietnam for a day before the "fire" (or being shot at by the enemy if you want to tell the truth) occured. He actually refused his Vietnam pin because he didn't feel that he had earned it. Just an interesting anecdote.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:08:57 AM EDT
Captain SKA, Sounds like your father has the heart of a true warrior. My father was one of those infantrymen(Korea) that refused Purple Hearts.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:10:50 AM EDT
The pilot gets a medal for what? Ok he saved the plane and crew after the collision but then he decides to let the chi-coms have it instead of ditching it. If he saved the plane and then ditched it to prevent capture I'd say he deserves a medal but not like this
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:31:44 AM EDT
I have three full rows of medals/ribbons. Out of those I have 1 medal and 2 ribbons I did nothing at all for. I have seen people receive an achievement medal for cleaning the head. The military & government gives tons of bullshit medals. That being said, If you recover an aircraft after a midair collision with a hostile craft (hostile because he just ran into you) then land this broken craft dreaming about the days when you had hydraulics on foreign terroritory that does not want you to land (which is in violation of international treaty) saving the lives of the crew and possibly giving the Chinese a broken plane with some now broken equipment. Is he a hero? To the crew yes. To me he is a damn fine pilot & airman who deserves recognition and appresiation. He did exactly what he was supposed to do. Ticonderoga - The way you get medals is for doing your job, and doing it well in adverse conditions.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:38:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ticonderoga: my mistake, Flying cross and meritorious conduct medal. Oh yeah, I'm an ass. Ok, I shouldn't rag on the guy for saving himself and his crew, relax, a little sarcasm won't kill anyone. MY POINT IS, does the guy really deserve a medal for just doing his job? This is as bad as the 3 capturees in Bosnia that rec'd 2 or 3 medals for getting captured. What this is -and don't fool youself into thinking otherwise- is SPIN by the President and the Defense Department to make themselves look good. It cheapens every previous recipient of that medal.
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You are wrong. the guy did hell of a job flying that thing in the condition it was in. That warrants the DFC. That's the type things that award were made for. The MSM was awarded to him for the leadership he displayed during the captivity. The MSM is not that high of an award. It fits in my opinion. Its awfully easy to sharp shoot anothers performance in a situaton like that from the comforts of your own home. Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:39:12 AM EDT
I think he did everyting right up to the point of saving his skin and giving them the plane. Medals are supposed to be about going above and beyond the call of duty. Saving the plane was a good start but that is his job as pilot. Risking death to make sure the equipment stays out of emeny hands is above and beyond.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:41:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By uncle buck: If performance above and beyond what is expected of the average pilot is just doing your duty then why give medals at all? Maybe a DFC was over doing it maybe a simple Air Medal would suffice.
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Air medals are givin for 25 combat missions. Not as an award for displaying some good flying skills. Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:45:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 10:45:16 AM EDT by Sukebe]
What are willing to lose your life for Mod? Who are you willing to take with you in your quest to be a real hero? "The dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive" Pvt. Joker USMC
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:48:18 AM EDT
Maby he should shoot the crew and himself before crashing the plane into the ocean to make shure that the Chinese can't pick them out of the water & question them & the plane would be utterly destroyed. Then we can give him a MOH - no wait no one would be left to know what happened. But he could be a hero then.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:48:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 10:48:13 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By Aviator:
Originally Posted By uncle buck: If performance above and beyond what is expected of the average pilot is just doing your duty then why give medals at all? Maybe a DFC was over doing it maybe a simple Air Medal would suffice.
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Air medals are givin for 25 combat missions. Not as an award for displaying some good flying skills. Aviator[/quote I guess thats why I've never gotten either. My mistake.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:52:01 AM EDT
I am and have been willing to risk or give up my life for my country. Better men than you have done the same for no thanks or a medal. Can you answer the question or can you just shoot your mouth off?
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 10:58:34 AM EDT
I think back to Chesty Puller who rec'd 6 Army/Navy Crosses and he was disgusted that Bronze stars were being handed out for guys who "merely" charged a machinegun nest. If I remember his words, "When you give them out easily, you cheapen their meaning. They are giving them out too easy." I look at pics of the Admirals of WWII with 3 ribbons on their chest, now the average Admiral has 63. You are right, the military gives them out for everyday tasks, and this is wrong. My old man rec'd a Bronze Star in Nam and it took me 20 years (and many beers) to get him to even talk about his experience. And I still know very little. He is very reluctant to even talk about it. I guess there was some friendly fire (artillery that landed in their liness) and killed his friends, he took over the mortar pit when those guys were all cut down, etc. And he was just a Navy CB tagallong guy at a Marine firebase. Just doing his job was driving the tractor. Leaving his foxhole to man a mortar pit after the Marines there were all killed was a bit outside his area of expertise. Bringing the plane down safely was the guy's job, it was his life. He didn't do anyting ABOVE the call of duty. I thought that's what MEDALS were for. Getcher Medals here! 2 for $19.95, each order shipped with a Black Beret made in China!
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:05:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MOD: I am and have been willing to risk or give up my life for my country. Better men than you have done the same for no thanks or a medal. Can you answer the question or can you just shoot your mouth off?
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Nobody gives a good sh*t about your service record. I served 8 years in two branches, so what? Keep barking little doggie!
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:06:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 11:06:34 AM EDT by Aviator]
The Distinguished Flying Cross is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the Navy of the United States, distinguished himself or herself by heroism [b]or extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight.[/b] The performance of the act of heroism must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of duty. The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from his or her comrades or from other persons in similar circumstances. Awards will be made only to recognize single acts of heroism or extraordinary achievement and will not be made in recognition of sustained operational activities against an armed enemy. That seemed to fit. The Meritorious Service Medal is awarded to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or to any member of the Armed Forces of a friendly foreign nation who, while serving in a noncombat area after 16 January 1969, has distinguished himself or herself by outstanding meritorious achievement or service. Hrmm, that seems to fit also. Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:12:54 AM EDT
Nuff said.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:15:43 AM EDT
what about the "The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from his or her comrades or from other persons in similar circumstances." How does this fit that? Uncle buck: I guess you may have served but I guess defending your country wasn't worth your life. Why did you serve then if you weren't willing to give up your life for your country?
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:21:39 AM EDT
[>:/]
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:24:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MOD: what about the "The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from his or her comrades or from other persons in similar circumstances." How does this fit that?
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Not sure i could have gotten a plane in the shape that one was in down safely. Fits pretty well to me. Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:31:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 11:30:03 AM EDT by MOD]
So every pilot that brings a damaged plane back to base or just lands the plane should get one?
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:35:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 11:36:28 AM EDT by Aviator]
Don't be an ass. I just said I could probably not do it. It was severely damaged, full of people, and started with a mid air collision and un-commanded inverted dive of several thousand feet. Thats a pretty big airframe to be getting out of that situation without stressing it too much. That hardly implies anyone who lands a plane. The man has my respect, and his actions fit the requirements for the award. if you have problems with that, call the DoD and request they change the requirements for the award. Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:48:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 11:51:21 AM EDT by MOD]
Some background from http://www.usarotc.com/medals/dfc.htm the Distinguished Flying Cross was established in the Air Corps Act (Act of Congress, 2 July 1926, Public Law No. 446, 69th Congress). This act provided for award "to any person, while serving in any capacity with the Air Corps of the Army of the United States, including the National Guard and the Organized Reserves, or with the United States Navy, since the 6th day of April 1917, has distinguished, or who, after the approval of this Act, distinguishes himself by heroism or extraordinary achievement while participating in an aerial flight." Initial awards of the Distinguished Flying Cross were made to persons who made record breaking long distance and endurance flights and who set altitude records. The Secretary of War authorized the first Distinguished Flying Cross to Captain Charles A. Lindbergh in a letter dated 31 May 1927. With the support of the Secretary of War, the Wright Brothers retroactively received the Distinguished Flying Cross. This award required a special Act of Congress, since the law precluded award to civilians This makes it sound like the achievement part is for record setters and then there are the people that show heroism.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 11:49:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 11:50:28 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Mod, I was more than willing to make some other poor bastard die for his country. I used to feel the same way you do. I realized that we will never again see the wealthy people, the truely economic elite of this country pick up a rifle and fight it out for "freedom". I'm not going to die so they can stay rich and I don't expect anyone else to either. The days of the Bushs' and Kennedys' going to war went out with the Sherman tank.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 12:02:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: The Distinguished Flying Cross is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the Navy of the United States, distinguished himself or herself by heroism [b]or extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight.[/b] The performance of the act of heroism must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of duty. The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from his or her comrades or from other persons in similar circumstances. Awards will be made only to recognize single acts of heroism or extraordinary achievement and will not be made in recognition of sustained operational activities against an armed enemy. That seemed to fit. The Meritorious Service Medal is awarded to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or to any member of the Armed Forces of a friendly foreign nation who, while serving in a noncombat area after 16 January 1969, has distinguished himself or herself by outstanding meritorious achievement or service. Hrmm, that seems to fit also. Aviator
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Landing the plane did not set him above the actions of the common pilot. Every pilot would have attempted that. To set himself above the rest he would have let the crew bail out and crash land the plane in the sea. Your quote also says "volunatary" action. Landing the plane was not "voluntary," doing the harder more dangerous ditch in the ocean would have been a "voluntary" action. By landing on the runway, he did what any civilian pilot would have done. This does not merit a medal. What did the rest of the crew do to deserve a medal? If they were tortured and failed to give info, that would have been above and beyond the call, what a bunch of PC sheep we've become.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 12:06:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ticonderoga: What a joke. Why not just give them out in a gumball machine!!!!
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We are gonna have to send Roy D. Mercer up thar to whup somebodies @$$!!! Lynn
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 12:18:03 PM EDT
You guys are making me think that A: You are the kind of people who spit on the troops returning from VN. Or.. B: You got spit on while returning, thus nobody else in the military should be told they did a good job. Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 12:25:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 12:29:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MOD: Initial awards of the Distinguished Flying Cross were made to persons who made record breaking long distance and endurance flights and who set altitude records. This makes it sound like the achievement part is for record setters and then there are the people that show heroism.
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It says initially they were awarded for record setters. back then thats stuff was a big deal. Now, it is not, or it is classified. The requirements read, heroism, or something showing a great skill. Still qualifies. Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 12:32:51 PM EDT
Some guys would have freaked, some would have froze, some would have done all the wrong things. Some would have sh*t themselves and saved the day. I will grant you that if I was on the stick I would have been trying to save my ass first and my crew a very close second. One last thing for those of you who think he should have risked their lives to save some "secrets" and then I'll let it go. What do you suppose the possibility is that some CIA, FBI, NSA etc. type had already given the Chinese everything they need to know about that technology?
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 12:54:07 PM EDT
[url]http://www-perscom.army.mil/TAGD/TIOH/MEDALS/AM.HTM[/url]
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 1:03:07 PM EDT
I stand corrected on the Air medal :-). Aviator
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 2:30:58 PM EDT
Apology accepted.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 2:57:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 4:33:23 PM EDT
The crew should have pissed off the Chinese by requesting chop suey for every meal. That would have gotten a slap or a dirty look from the Chinese and a potential valid argument for throwing in the Purple Heart as well. Medals, awards, and the valid reasons for earning them anymore are a big joke. They have been soiled and cheapened in recent years, all in an effort to boost morale I suppose. Hell, you also get medals for killing innocent women and children as in the Kerry case).
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 6:20:04 AM EDT
I think some people are missing the point. First of all, the pilots job is to fly the plane while it is fully functional, or having minor problems. Therefore, attempting to fly at all, after it was rammed by an enemy fighter, while in an inverted dive, while being followed by another enemy fighter, and trying to land on hostile territory--that is above and beyond the call of duty. Now maybe I missed something, but to me it sounds like the man did an exemplary job of saving his crew--and that, regardless of which medal you give him--deserves some form of recognition. And as far as giving the plane to the Chinese--something tells me they probably didn't find out too much. That's what the S.E.A.L.S are for. . .
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 8:46:40 AM EDT
This whole charade is a load of Barbara Streisand. Medals just for landing? meadls for failing to keep the secret equipment from the stinking gooks? I'm sorry, but the wory "PUSSY" is written all over this sorry epispde, from top to bottom.
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 10:25:39 AM EDT
With all the Cop-bashers and GI-bashers, AR-15.com is starting to make me puke! AR15.COM! Home of the draft dodgers and anarchists!
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 7:35:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sf46: With all the Cop-bashers and GI-bashers, AR-15.com is starting to make me puke! AR15.COM! Home of the draft dodgers and anarchists!
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Hey, it's called a free country. You are allowed to complain and question. That's what makes this country great. Anarchists and draft dodgers? Where are you coming from. Perhaps you are upset that you discharged before you got your free beret? [:p]
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 8:11:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/19/2001 8:15:38 PM EDT
Holy Sh*t it's Popeye the sailer and he's got a gun! run for your lives
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