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Posted: 7/21/2005 11:53:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 7:08:06 PM EDT by pathfinder74]
What made you not believe in a higher power? I am more concerned with what specific thing or things makes you firmly comvinced that there is no afterlife,etc?

Were you raised in a non-religious home/environment?

Were you raised in a moderately religious home/environment and had a dose of reality that made you doubt anything that couldn't be proved by science?

Do you have some inkling of faith buried deep inside you that you simply feel is enough and that you shouldn't have to worship and play all the other churchy religion games?

other?
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:05:23 PM EDT
I was raised Lutheran.

I gradually fell away from it because as I grew older and more able to think and observe for myself, I saw more and more hypocrisy.

When I asked logical questions, I got disapproving frowns and the kind of answers that are used to sell real estate in Florida.

I met people of other faiths who were every bit as devout and convinced of their correctness as the Christians I knew.

Science doesn't have all the answers, but at least it tries to gather facts and understand them without preconcieved notions. Religions start with a belief, and reject anything that doesn't fit that belief.

There are still many gaps in, for example, the theory of evolution. But there are also many verifiable, observable aspects to it that lend credibility to the rest.

Christianity (and all other religions, I'm not singling out one) is just the opposite. There are so many demonstrable impossibilities involved (Noah's ark, immaculate conception, yada, yada, yada) that I cast a jaundiced eye on the rest of the ideology as well.

Facts are sacred to me. All the religions I'm aware of are short on facts.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:10:45 PM EDT
I have a hard time dealing with people who tell me "shut up and believe" or "the bible says so" when i ask questions. then after studying other religions I finally fiugred out that religion is nothing more than a code of ethics to keep people civil and as much as I disagree with Karl Marx, he was right in calling it "The Opiate For The Masses"

hypocracy is everywhere, and when someone does some sort of vile deed you either hear "he's not a real christian anyway" or "well he's saved already" and it just reminds me of a bunch of kindergarteners sitting around a sandbox trying to let everyone play a role.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:11:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 12:12:40 PM EDT by mr_camera_man]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Were you raised in a moderately religious home/environment and had a does of reality that made you doubt anything that couldn't be proved by science?




I went to a Catholic grade school, and spent a lot of time with Polish Catholic grandparents, so the influence was definitely there. Then I laid eyes on what was going on around me, and figured that there's simply no way that any supreme being would allow one tenth of the crap that goes on in this puny little world without wiping the slate clean... or that one that would isn't necessarily worth following.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:12:10 PM EDT
Rodent pretty much covered a lot of it.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:14:45 PM EDT
I'm a scientific person. I need to see proof of things. I've read both the Old and New Testaments and am strongly considering reading the Koran. I grew up going to church on sundays, a Methodist church.

My biggest problem is that every different religion thinks they are the only one. Between all the different monotheistic and polythiestic religions there is very little agreement. Native Americans didn't believe in any god really, just that everything had a spirit and needed to be respected. Ancient Egyptians believed in many different gods that all controlled different things, in cultures like South America people believed in multiple gods also, but that one or some of the gods were in higher order than the others. (Like in Greek culture where Zues was the leader of the different gods).

Hell, look at the difference between sects of the same religions. Catholics have a very different dogma than Protestants, Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews, Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims, they all have different interpretations of their own religion.

Who knows what to believe?

Christians think there is only one God and His only son Jesus died for their sins. Muslims think there is no other god but Allah. etc etc.

People die and kill for those beliefs and they think they are the only ones that are right.

To me that just doesn't make sense. If one was right, the other must be wrong.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:22:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I have a hard time dealing with people who tell me "shut up and believe" or "the bible says so" when i ask questions. then after studying other religions I finally fiugred out that religion is nothing more than a code of ethics to keep people civil and as much as I disagree with Karl Marx, he was right in calling it "The Opiate For The Masses"

hypocracy is everywhere, and when someone does some sort of vile deed you either hear "he's not a real christian anyway" or "well he's saved already" and it just reminds me of a bunch of kindergarteners sitting around a sandbox trying to let everyone play a role.



+1. Show me solid proof and evidence and I will follow, until then stay the hell out of my way.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:24:15 PM EDT
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools for a few years (moderate ones). I started feeling the same thing with the contradictions, etc. of the church. I finally realized that I didn't want to be part of any "organized" religion, because most (not everyone) have that complex where they feel they are 100% correct and everyone else's beliefs are worthless. I just don't want to worship with people like that.

I honestly don't know if there is an afterlife, or God or whatever. A part of me still feels that there is a higher power, but that it is passive and does not interact or interfere with us and everything else in the universe. So I guess I really fit into that last category you listed, before 'other.'
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:26:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Do you have some inkling of faith buried deep inside you that you simply feel is enough and that you shouldn't have to worship and play all the other churchy religion games?


Wow. That's it. It's like you took a CAT scan of my soul!

I'm also capable of looking at a person of a different religion and not think that they’re going to hell just because they have different beliefs than my own.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:28:31 PM EDT
I was raised in a moderate Presbyterian church in an affluent community. My mom is somewhat religious but never pushed it on me, though Sunday school attendance was mandatory through 4th grade. I have a Revised Standard Edition Holy Bible that was issued to me in December 1966 to commemorate my completion of that phase of Chrstian education.

About age 10 I became painfully aware of the mutually exclusive nature of various major world religions after my first experience of a Roman Catholic mass. I was, to be honest (and not meaning this as a bash of the RCC sgtar15 and other Catholics), both irritated and amused at the tedious repitition of how the Catholic church was the one true church of Christ, and to beware of imitations. I noticed that the Muslims said the same thing about their faith, and so on. Well, simple logic told me they couldn't all be right but they certainly could all be wrong.

I believe in higher powers but not conscious, willful reverse-anthropomorphic ones. I view all of life on Earth as interconnected and interdependent, and toyed briefly with the Gaia hypothesis which views terrestrial life as ONE big organism. Going down that road leads quickly to neo-Paganism and other New Age silliness which has no appeal for me at all. I believe in a watered-down version of Karma in that what goes around comes around. That's not due to an external force, rather the result of people taking direct revenge for our misdeeds, plus our own subconscious self-destructive, self-punishing actions when we know we have done something stupid. Finally, I believe that much of what happens to us in life is controlled by random chance and other forces we cannot control.

I believe there is reward for good deeds and punishment for bad deeds. Enough of both comes from purely terrestrial sources that I see no need for some external hairy thunderer or divine recordkeeper to ration out bliss or misery after life is done. I think when you die your consciousness simply ceases. This is difficult for most people including myself to comprehend, so religions usually include some kind of rationalization or invention to make it not so.

I respect people of faith and their beliefs, but when they start telling me I'm going to Hell or just haven't thought things through they can bite my shorts. I've thought longer, harder, and deeper about spiritual matters than most people I've met, and have come to my own conclusions based on observation and the teachings of many people much smarter than I.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:29:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Facts are sacred to me. All the religions I'm aware of are short on facts.



+1.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:47:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 1:18:47 PM EDT by rasanders22]
Because most religious ideas fall in the face of physics. And how many people here make fun of Muslims for believing that when they die in battle they get like 73 virgins, but then the next minute say Moses lived to several hundred years old.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:18:04 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:23:29 PM EDT
raised catholic. but i have a really hard time beliving in something i cant prove. not to mention i dont know how a supreme person would let the shit on this world go on.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:34:46 PM EDT
Rodent did a great job of summing it up.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:38:55 PM EDT
I'm with Rodent on this one.

I think God is a great idea, until you get all the middle men involved.

From past experiences, every bible thumper client I've had has screwed me for a lot of money. One was a Morman and the church sent a crew and hid all his assets. We we show up with a court order, nothing is left. Just about put my company under.


Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:42:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BeckettOfNevada:
raised catholic. but i have a really hard time beliving in something i cant prove. not to mention i dont know how a supreme person would let the shit on this world go on.



More or less the same thing here. And even when I was still Catholic, I thought the whole idea of having to be Catholic in order to go to heaven was preposterous. So someone could live their whole life without sinning (well, except being born I guess, like they had a choice), but if they never learn of the right religion, they're going to hell anyway? What a crock.

I also used to get shocked when I dipped my finger in the holy water... but I just attribute that to static electricity.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:43:47 PM EDT
religion and the belief of a "god" is nothing but a farce, and a scam to bilk mindless morons of money, by filling their empty head full of nonesense. there isn't one shread of evidence of any existant of any "god" and there has been coutless of "god" over the thousands of years. sooner or later this "god" and "jesus" will be replaced by another "god", with it's own "prophet" and other nonsense..........it's happend through history, and will couninue as long as there is mindless fools that will fall for this hogwash.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:43:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 1:46:21 PM EDT by pattymcn]

I don't know -- there is nothing wrong with faith. I do not believe people should cram their belief's down another person's throat either. There has to be a fine line somewhere. And since you brought up Marx look what years without faith have done for that country? Made it better? Not really. Maybe it is an opaite for the masses, but maybe the mass needs boundaries?

Patty

*ETA* whoops didn't read clearly. Sorry to hack in your thread.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:47:44 PM EDT
Christians deny thousands of gods every day.

Why dont you ask them why they deny thousands of gods?

They deny thousands of gods for the same reason I deny thousands of gods. I dont worship falsehood.

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:52:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EODgreen:
Rodent pretty much covered a lot of it.



+1

Except I was not raised in a religious household. Religion was not frowned upon, but it was not practiced. As a kid, I remember being read morality tales which featured Jesus a lot. I tried church a few times when I moved out and at first it wasn't so bad. But I started thinking...

People pray for health or cures and some people get sick and some people get better. People pray for the strength to overcome hard times. Soimetimes they find it, others still fail.

I believe things are going to happen anyway, one way or another and there is no divine intervention. You ask for strength and believe it's given to you - but it was there all along, you just had to look inside to find it, instead people look elsewhere. People sit still and pray for cures instead of going to a doctor who can actually do something about it.

Add in the holes that Rodent mentioned and hypocrisy of the organized religions and that's my story.

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:53:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 1:55:03 PM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]
I was raised catholic.

I couldn't find the "answers" to a bunch stupid questions so I became an athiest in my teens and half way through my 20's. Studied various philiosphies and various religions during college. It was a very misarable 10 years.

Got married. Had children. Found God (or rather I let myself find him).

Catholic again... but only for lack of a nicer or better organized place in which to worship.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:54:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 1:57:37 PM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
What made you not believe in a higher power? I am more concerned with what specific thing or things makes you firmly comvinced that there is no afterlife,etc?

Were you raised in a non-religious home/environment?

Were you raised in a moderately religious home/environment and had a does of reality that made you doubt anything that couldn't be proved by science?

Do you have some inkling of faith buried deep inside you that you simply feel is enough and that you shouldn't have to worship and play all the other churchy religion games?

other?



You don't need to be religious, or contribute to the religion bu$iness, to believe in God. Many overly zealous extremist 'religious' persons are well over the edge. Look around.

Phone rang.

Now I can edit. I was raised Catholic too. I watched first hand how money could buy your way out of what the church called sinful. Follow the molestations and other bs the church has going for it, and I want no part of it. I did set foot in a church, surprisingly I didn't catch fire, for a funeral recently. My family got liquored up and discussed the religion business.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:57:20 PM EDT

Was raised in a moderately religious home

I really found it hard to believe that out of the 100's of thousands of gods and deities that have been worshipped in history and before it that the one we have now happens to be real and all the others were false. That just defies all logic.

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:05:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 2:13:57 PM EDT by soccermike7]
raised catholic.

after learning even the slightest bit about biology and science, religious belief fell into the same category as santa and the easter bunny.

not exactly, but i dont really feel like typing a lot.

i dont deny the presence of a supreme being, but....evolution happened. its a fact. where i stop is the 'big bang theory' - to me thats equally as elusive as a supreme being. i go back as far as there is evidence to support it.

Edit:

and you see, here's the thing. scientists are not these evil creatures who wish to overthrow religion. All science does is progress towards the TRUTH. now there might be a few fanatics out there, but those are present on both sides. I dont care what the truth is. if there is new evidence that blows evolution out of the water and suggests that a supreme being did in fact do all of this, then after analysis i will change my belief.

'Science' may not have all the pieces of the puzzle together just yet, but every time its wrong it adjusts and gets closer and closer to the truth. Comparing that to "no, its this way b/c it is written in the bible and thats that..." i mean comeon.

Especially the people who have literal interpretations. there are 2 creation stories in the bible. both cant have happened, now can they?

You do realize it was between 1950 and 1970 (most likely in the 70s) that the catholic church finally changed its statement that "the world is flat" to 'yeah, its round' - do you know why? because the church cant afford to admit it is wrong about ANYTHING. if its wrong about one thing, what about another? that leads to people questioning beliefs, and the realization that a lot doesnt make sense.

I think religion does a great job of moral advising to people. I think the world is definitely overall better because many people have the "if i dont behave i'll burn in hell" attitude. personally, i can live a moral and just life without that bullshit (personal opinion) - but many cant, and for that i applaud 'religion'
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:17:28 PM EDT
Why is it assumed that the default is to believe in God? What makes someone wake up one morning and think there must be some invisible guy sitting up on an invisible throne somewhere? I don't get that part.

I don't believe in things like witchcraft. I think it is nutty. I think the people who think there is something as witches (invariably devoutly religious people) are even nuttier.

I have seen a parade of religious zealots, all claiming they had the one true answer -- while the other guy didn't. Frankly, they all looked a little nutty to me.

The idea that God would make all these people on the earth and then save a relatively few because they believe in him is a little nutty. According to what I hear from a lot of Christians, they and about twenty of their friends are going to heaven and the other six billion people are going to hell. Now, I am not a betting man, but I think the odds would be against that.

As Mark Twain noted, man's greatest pleasures are carousing and sex, few of them really like going to church, and not one person in one hundred can carry a tune in a bucket. But, if you look at the Christian vision of heaven, there are no bars or night spots, you couldn't get laid if you had a million bucks to pay for it, and you spend all week in church singing. Sounds more like hell, to me.

As far as hell goes, doesn't it seem logical to you that, if Satan was really trying to attract people to Hell, that he would tone down the eternal fire and put in a few more strip clubs?

Many things in religion are just plainly illogical. When you ask about them, the usual answer is that you just have to suspend all rational thought and believe. No thanks, the last guy after my wallet said the same thing.

Unless you are Catholic priest it is just about impossible to get laid in church.

Much of religion seems to be oriented around the fear that somewhere somebody is having fun and it has to be stopped. Religious folks are often the dullest people on the planet -- even while they are claiming that an evening of wholesome tiddlywinks is the most fun anyone could have. Many of them are so uptight about things that you wonder if they can uncork their ass long enough to take a shit.

Lots and lots of religious folk seem to me like they are really quite troubled individuals who don't think they are really in control of their lives and have to believe that somebody will save their butts in the end. For many of them, I would rank their beliefs as having much in common with drug addiction. Less destructive physically, but just as aberrant.

The story of Job -- and the Christians repeating it -- strikes me as a bit odd. For those who aren't familiar, God and Satan got into an argument and, just for amusement, they decided to do all sorts of horrible things to Job. Boils, dead kids, all that stuff. Through it all, Job retains faith in God. Now God is screwing him over big time -- and for no good reason, either, because God knows all and, therefore, must know the outcome. As Job and every other Christian says "It is all part of God's master plan." Really? Why would I want to worship a God who screws me over just to prove a point to Satan?

I know, you gotta believe. No matter how fucking nutty it looks, or what bizarre crap we ask you to do for no reason, you gotta believe.

Yeah, OK. Sign me for a thousand acres of that swamp land. Got any Kool-Aid to go with that?

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:22:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
I don't know -- there is nothing wrong with faith. I do not believe people should cram their belief's down another person's throat either. There has to be a fine line somewhere. And since you brought up Marx look what years without faith have done for that country? Made it better? Not really. Maybe it is an opaite for the masses, but maybe the mass needs boundaries?

Patty

*ETA* whoops didn't read clearly. Sorry to hack in your thread.



Nope, nothing at all. I encourage people to find their own faith. Mine is gone however. For a great number of reasons listed by Rodent I can no longer make it click in my head. It's not a matter of not wanting to. Honestly I liked religion, I still do, but I can't accept things that fly in the face of all that can be observed. I was rasied in a very religious home, but it was not overbearing. Many try to peg that as the reason but its not. I just could not get basic questions answered in a way that made even a wit of sense.

The people at my wife's church have been wonderful people and helped us through rough times. We try to do the same. Honestly though, so do most other groups of generally decent folks. They don't need a cross over the roof to be decent.

You'll never catch me say that I know for sure there is no God. Nor do I accept all science as gospel. I like it that way though. I don't spend my time defending my preconcieved notions from every new theory. I simply say "That's interesting", and move on.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:30:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
Why is it assumed that the default is to believe in God? What makes someone wake up one morning and think there must be some invisible guy sitting up on an invisible throne somewhere? I don't get that part.

I don't believe in things like witchcraft. I think it is nutty. I think the people who think there is something as witches (invariably devoutly religious people) are even nuttier.

I have seen a parade of religious zealots, all claiming they had the one true answer -- while the other guy didn't. Frankly, they all looked a little nutty to me.

The idea that God would make all these people on the earth and then save a relatively few because they believe in him is a little nutty. According to what I hear from a lot of Christians, they and about twenty of their friends are going to heaven and the other six billion people are going to hell. Now, I am not a betting man, but I think the odds would be against that.

As Mark Twain noted, man's greatest pleasures are carousing and sex, few of them really like going to church, and not one person in one hundred can carry a tune in a bucket. But, if you look at the Christian vision of heaven, there are no bars or night spots, you couldn't get laid if you had a million bucks to pay for it, and you spend all week in church singing. Sounds more like hell, to me.

As far as hell goes, doesn't it seem logical to you that, if Satan was really trying to attract people to Hell, that he would tone down the eternal fire and put in a few more strip clubs?

Many things in religion are just plainly illogical. When you ask about them, the usual answer is that you just have to suspend all rational thought and believe. No thanks, the last guy after my wallet said the same thing.

Unless you are Catholic priest it is just about impossible to get laid in church.

Much of religion seems to be oriented around the fear that somewhere somebody is having fun and it has to be stopped. Religious folks are often the dullest people on the planet -- even while they are claiming that an evening of wholesome tiddlywinks is the most fun anyone could have. Many of them are so uptight about things that you wonder if they can uncork their ass long enough to take a shit.

Lots and lots of religious folk seem to me like they are really quite troubled individuals who don't think they are really in control of their lives and have to believe that somebody will save their butts in the end. For many of them, I would rank their beliefs as having much in common with drug addiction. Less destructive physically, but just as aberrant.

The story of Job -- and the Christians repeating it -- strikes me as a bit odd. For those who aren't familiar, God and Satan got into an argument and, just for amusement, they decided to do all sorts of horrible things to Job. Boils, dead kids, all that stuff. Through it all, Job retains faith in God. Now God is screwing him over big time -- and for no good reason, either, because God knows all and, therefore, must know the outcome. As Job and every other Christian says "It is all part of God's master plan." Really? Why would I want to worship a God who screws me over just to prove a point to Satan?

I know, you gotta believe. No matter how fucking nutty it looks, or what bizarre crap we ask you to do for no reason, you gotta believe.

Yeah, OK. Sign me for a thousand acres of that swamp land. Got any Kool-Aid to go with that?




As much as I don't agree with them, I don't see most as fun-hating nimrods who lash themselves for lusting for their wives. Aside from the silliness, most of the core I see in the rational discussion that goes on inside the church is about not letting yourself become a slave to your desire. In other words simplify and learn to enjoy what you have without bitching about everything you don't. Poor, middle-class, or rich, that's a good thing.

There's plenty I find silly, but the core values of the sanely religious are not one of them.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:33:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Facts are sacred to me. All the religions I'm aware of are short on facts.



If facts scare you then why did you let people run you off instead of going to the source?

IE The Bible


And have you ever actually tried to follow what it says?

It IS a text book you know.

And text books are made for STUDING. otherwise you don't learn the subject material.

Try it.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:49:24 PM EDT
i have to laugh about this thread. Last night i was watching the simpsons were bart and lisa find a indian cave. Bart makes a comment about how crazy it is to worship deer, bears and the stars and that hes proud that now adays people worship a carpenter that lived 2000 years ago. If they could prove the bible is telling the truth i would be back in church sunday. but until that day ill be watching football.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:51:30 PM EDT
I believe in an afterlife, I believe in God, and I believe in doing the right thing.
But I do not believe that having religion is necessary to have a relationship with God.

I have faith, but not religion.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:04:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 3:12:51 PM EDT by mobius]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Facts are sacred to me. All the religions I'm aware of are short on facts.



If facts scare you then why did you let people run you off instead of going to the source?

IE The Bible


And have you ever actually tried to follow what it says?

It IS a text book you know.

And text books are made for STUDING. otherwise you don't learn the subject material.

Try it.

Sgat1r5



he said sacred, not scared.....the "bible" is no more of a text book, or a historical document or the "word of god" then the tao-pooh book is.....it's nothing but a collection of half assed stories about a imaginary "god" and "jesus" and some other nonesense writtern by people, to prop up the notion that a there is a "god" for weak minded fools to believe in.........fiction, pure and simple, with no basis in fact.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:11:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Facts are sacred to me. All the religions I'm aware of are short on facts.



If facts scare you then why did you let people run you off instead of going to the source?

IE The Bible


And have you ever actually tried to follow what it says?

It IS a text book you know.

And text books are made for STUDING. otherwise you don't learn the subject material.

Try it.

Sgat1r5



What -- other than some odd belief that there is an invisible guy on an invisible throne somewhere -- makes you think that the Bible is any more accurate than any other old book?

Because God told you so?
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:11:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 3:12:06 PM EDT by Justa_TXguy]
What made you not believe in a higher power? Reasoning.
Were you raised in a non-religious home/environment? My father is devout.

Were you raised in a moderately religious home/environment and had a does of reality that made you doubt anything that couldn't be proved by science?Are you asking do I believe in miracles? No. There are some things I can't explain, such as Sarge's fascination with dolls, but that does not mean there is not an explanation.

Do you have some inkling of faith buried deep inside you that you simply feel is enough and that you shouldn't have to worship and play all the other churchy religion games?No.

other?I believe in living an honest life. I do not need religion to make me a moral person.

And my last inflammatory comment: Religion is a crutch.

I do not intend to disrespect anyone's religion.

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:16:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mobius:

he said sacred, not scared.....the "bible" is no more of a text book, or a historical document then the tao-pooh book is.....it's nothing but a collection of half assed stories about a imaginary "god" and "jesus" and some other nonesense to prop up the notion that a there is a "god" for weak minded fools to believe in.........fiction, pure and simple, with no basis in fact.



And if you read the Song of Solomon you can see that some parts aren't much about God at all. They are really erotic love poetry.

Then there is the story of how they came together as one book, anyway. There were lots of old texts. Some got saved and some got tossed and somewhere along the line somebody chose these books to be in the "official" Bible. So we are supposed to believe that not only are the authors divinely inspired (including the horny dude who wrote Song of Solomon) but the people who bound them together into one work knew exactly which ones were entirely 100 percent accurate and divinely inspired, and which ones weren't.

With just a little change in history, these people would be claiming that 1001 Arabian Nights was 100 percent accurate.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:23:06 PM EDT
One thing I forgot to mention was how selfish religion is. It's all about saving your own ass. Sorry, I don't need the threat of hell or the promise of heaven to make me a nice person.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:35:23 PM EDT
There are some things we are not able or meant to understand.
I was baptised, went to church, even went to some christian schools.
I remember sitting in Sunday school as a young child and looking around and thinking how fucked up these individuals are. (Not those words, but you get it.)
I saw and experienced 1st hand the hypocrisy in church and their school.
I wish every one would live by the 10 commandments except that "no god before me", the world would be nicer.
I have no use for any religions zealots, they all will be as dangerous as the next given the time and opportunity.
AND, I honestly believe that if there is a supremem being and we get something after this, he will have more respect for an individual who stood on his on, figured out what was right (I do believe in right and wrong, you are born knowing the difference.) did what was right and wasn't a whiny ass supreme being ass licker.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:01:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mobius:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

It IS a text book you know.

And text books are made for STUDING. otherwise you don't learn the subject material.



he said sacred, not scared.....the "bible" is no more of a text book, or a historical document or the "word of god" then the tao-pooh book is.....it's nothing but a collection of half assed stories about a imaginary "god" and "jesus" and some other nonesense writtern by people, to prop up the notion that a there is a "god" for weak minded fools to believe in.........fiction, pure and simple, with no basis in fact.



Although if by textbook you mean a publication that is edited by those in power to put forth an agenda to control the masses through misinformation and fear then yes, it's a textbook.

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:28:53 PM EDT
Once you begin to truly understand why you don't believe in all the Gods you don't believe in you will start to understand why I don't believe in any God.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:39:34 PM EDT
I was raised in an extremely conservative Baptist home. We were considered less than stellar Christians because we went to church 2 times a week but skipped out on Wednesday night prayer meetings.

The bottom line is that the suspension of disbelief factor in organized conservative religion ( called "relying on faith" for things that can't be readily explained) is huge. Plus, the per centage of hypocrites in organized conservative religion is huge, and the true believers who aren't hypocrites usually can't seem to function in normal society, nor do they seem inclined to want to do so.
I can't abide by the more liberal branches seriously, since I think they've compromised their faith. Better in my mind to admit I cannot adhere to a particular religion than pretend.

That being said, I am not ruling out the existence of a superior being. At the moment, I don't know what form that deity would take, or even if he/she/it even cares about us here on Earth, what with the doubtless thousands upon thousands of inhabited worlds that statistically must exist "out there".I believe that the discovery of life on other planets when it does happen will no doubt bring much of organized religion to its knees.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:52:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
What made you not believe in a higher power? I am more concerned with what specific thing or things makes you firmly comvinced that there is no afterlife,etc?

Were you raised in a non-religious home/environment?

Were you raised in a moderately religious home/environment and had a does of reality that made you doubt anything that couldn't be proved by science?

Do you have some inkling of faith buried deep inside you that you simply feel is enough and that you shouldn't have to worship and play all the other churchy religion games?

other?



I was raised in a moderately religious environment. My family started out going to the Methodist church in town, and ended up at the Episcopalian church ten miles away. My mother (my father probably wouldn't go to church at all, but he is nominally Christian) moved us around based on the people at the church, not the denomination.

I didn't care for church and never really bought into it, becoming an athiest thoughout high school (basically my swinging my pendulum in the opposite direction in response to being forced to go to church.)

I'm now an agnostic. Athiesim requires just as much faith as religious belief, and until I have definitive, tangible proof, I'm not throwing in with one side or the other.

If there is a God then my heart and mind are open for Him, but I'm going to need some paperwork thankyouverymuch. I'm just not a person who operates on faith.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:01:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 5:04:49 PM EDT by AZ-Dave]
I have very strong spiritual beliefs, but don't feel the need to partake in weekly chanting and scripture recitals. I was raised staunchly Catholic, my 2 aunts in fact were sent to the convent around 12 or 13 years old after WWII, and have "served" ever since.
When I go to a "Catholic mass" (about twice a year we go with my parents) it reminds me of being very primitive with all the cult like standing ,sitting,kneeling--standing, sitting, kneeling--repeat after me stuff. Please don't take offense anyone--just how I feel--I live by a code of doing the right thing and feel peace with that

ETA: maybe if some of the fire and brimstone stuff was replaced with "do the right thing" type messages, it would help draw people back to the Catholic religion (plus getting rid of the pedaphile priests)
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:11:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Facts are sacred to me. All the religions I'm aware of are short on facts.



If facts scare you then why did you let people run you off instead of going to the source?

IE The Bible


And have you ever actually tried to follow what it says?

It IS a text book you know.

And text books are made for STUDING. otherwise you don't learn the subject material.

Try it.

Sgat1r5



What -- other than some odd belief that there is an invisible guy on an invisible throne somewhere -- makes you think that the Bible is any more accurate than any other old book?

Because God told you so?



You guys keep claiming you prefer the scientific approach.

Well, what a scientist does when confronted with a mystery is he trys to re create the event by following the instructions EXACTLY as the other person did to achieve those results.

Now, millions upon millions of Christians profess their faith by what they have learned to do in the Bible (their text book). So until you yourself try to re-create that same experience by scientifically followinmg the same path as they did to see what results may or may not be achieved I don't believe you have completely researched this matter where your opinion is of any real value.

SGat1r5
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:15:42 PM EDT
There IS a higher power. Each person comes to terms with it in a private personal manner.
Organized religion is a scam perpetrated by mortals. Sort of like Amway, only not as irritating.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:15:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

You guys keep claiming you prefer the scientific approach.

Well, what a scientist does when confronted with a mystery is he trys to re create the event by following the instructions EXACTLY as the other person did to achieve those results.

Now, millions upon millions of Christians profess their faith by what they have learned to do in the Bible (their text book). So until you yourself try to re-create that same experience by scientifically followinmg the same path as they did to see what results may or may not be achieved I don't believe you have completely researched this matter where your opinion is of any real value.

SGat1r5



water is made of 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen, that is fact. Some words scrawled in a book might as well be the same as learning to speak Klingon....its a language and there is a story but Klingons are not real. If you need religion to make your life go then so be it.....but BUT don't force your beliefs down my throat.....besides in your faith based religion only God can pass judgement right?
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:16:20 PM EDT
I was raised in a Catholic household. I'm spiritual in my own way. All I know is, you're far better off living to a code of conduct that you'll actually follow. It's much better than being a hypocrite. Trying to force a belief system on yourself that you don't really believe in/can't really follow will just make you end up hating yourself or turning into a huge hypocrite. I really think it's about exploring on your own and figuring out what system works for you. It's like shooting techniques, not everybody can make all the same techniques work for them. For instance, I'm actually a better shot from a traditional standing position than I am crouched, most people are the other way around. It's just a question of wanting to stick to security in sticking to the belief you were born into, often for the sake of merely keeping others happy, or wanting to do what's right for you. The problem with morality is that people tend to depend on others to tell them what's moral and what isn't. I encourage people to figure out their own morals. What good is a moral code if you know you can't possibly live by it, so therefore you'll always judge yourself (or others will judge you) as being "bad" compared to that code. It's my experience that morality can provide people with an excuse to attack others simply for doing things they don't like. Such as the typical "you're going to hell" speech. I think people need to learn to be a little less judgemental, figure out their own belief/moral systems and not just do what they're told and just live and let live as a general rule. It makes life much easier that way, cause otherwise, you're basing your life off of what others think it should be (it is, after all, your own life) and there's too much potential for unnecessary conflict, both inside and outside. I guess I am something of an individualist, part of my maturing has involved basically learning that I have a need to do my own thing and to basically ignore people who attempt to change me or tell me otherwise. I think a lot of people simply stick to a given belief system because it's safe and easy and because people will approve. Just like the freedom vs. security argument. Freedom being a scary thing, but some of us find it necessary to be free, essential liberty and such. I feel smothered and start having emotional problems myself when people try to control me/restrict my freedom, so I guess I am someone who really does need to do his own thing in order to make it. Hopefully what I've said makes some sense to others.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:18:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:



water is made of 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen, that is fact. Some words scrawled in a book might as well be the same as learning to speak Klingon....its a language and there is a story but Klingons are not real. If you need religion to make your life go then so be it.....but BUT don't force your beliefs down my throat.....besides in your faith based religion only God can pass judgement right?



Do you see me forcing it in this thread?

Have you studied the Bible yourself and tried to recreate the spiritual experience everyone else says they recieved as a result of HONESTLY trying to follow it?

That is how scientific research is done. If you are not willing to research or investigate it then your conclusions are useless because they are arrived without study.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:29:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

You guys keep claiming you prefer the scientific approach.

Well, what a scientist does when confronted with a mystery is he trys to re create the event by following the instructions EXACTLY as the other person did to achieve those results.

Now, millions upon millions of Christians profess their faith by what they have learned to do in the Bible (their text book). So until you yourself try to re-create that same experience by scientifically followinmg the same path as they did to see what results may or may not be achieved I don't believe you have completely researched this matter where your opinion is of any real value.

SGat1r5



Actually a science tends to build on the reproducible work of other scientists.

They make observations of phenomena. They then form a hypothesis to explain observations. Then the hypothesis is used to predict new observations or quantitative measurements. Experiements are then used to test the theory performed repeatedly by others, preferable folks that don't have any preconceived notions or vested interest in the results.

The problem with comparing religion to science is that ultimately you have to die to prove your theory and it's pretty tough to get your results published then...
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:43:12 PM EDT
Having a personal belief that GOD exists and is my maker and I am his servant is one thing...

But, it is difficult to believe all of the "stories" that have been told and passed down since the beginning of time.

Religion to me means buying whole heartedly into one of the many unverifiable versions of the "story".

Please tell me why all of the significant religious events, some supernatural even and direct interaction between GOD and humans (10 commandments, Moses, etc...) only occurred 2000+ years ago and never since.

Why would all the activity stop? There was enough activity 2000 years ago to fill up the Bible and ever since all is quiet?

I'm on the fence....
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:48:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Do you see me forcing it in this thread?

Have you studied the Bible yourself and tried to recreate the spiritual experience everyone else says they recieved as a result of HONESTLY trying to follow it?

That is how scientific research is done. If you are not willing to research or investigate it then your conclusions are useless because they are arrived without study.

Sgat1r5



actually I didn't mean you per say in forcing the issue but a broader perspective of those who come knocking on my door Christmas morning to spread the good word. I'm a moral person I believe in a higher power, I do not need "how to live your life for dummies" book. I've read and attended Sunday school as a child.....its not for me, I have more faith in the existance of UFO's.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:51:10 PM EDT
I'm lucky. I don't have a lot of whatever that brain hormone is called that prods people to find a higher power. I frankly don't feel the need. I was born in Los Angeles and had a busy life. Always something to do. No room, or need, for a god.

I feel pity for those who go around spouting the usual Xtian gibberish and judging each other. I've noticed most of them are rural types. Undereducated. Trapped. Bitter. Guess the concept that they themselves made the bed they live in is too much to take. Must have been Him!

The way I see it, God is a crutch.
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