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Posted: 2/1/2011 11:00:56 AM EDT
TRENTON — The state Supreme Court will not consider the state’s fiscal crisis in deciding the legality of education spending cuts made by the Christie administration last spring, the court ordered this morning.

The constitutionality of last year’s $820 million cut to state education aid has prompted the latest round of Abbott v. Burke, a landmark court case that has routed millions to New Jersey’s largest, poorest school districts and its neediest children over the past three decades.

“Save for the recognition that the Special Master is authorized to entertain any and all evidence as he sees fit in the proper completion of his assigned task, the State’s motion for clarification (on consideration of it’s fiscal condition) is denied,” Long wrote in the order.


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/02/nj_supreme_court_to_decide_leg.html

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:04:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:05:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
So is there a lower court decision that has ruled on this?


As far as I know, yes.

This is the last stop.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:09:36 AM EDT
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


If so, Christie needs to just run the state off the cliff early in his term and then rebuild it.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:11:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


If so, Christie needs to just run the state off the cliff early in his term and then rebuild it.



Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:14:27 AM EDT
I'm starting to think countries where the Military is considered the guardian of last resort of the national interest is better than our system where the Courts occupy that role.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:16:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 11:17:31 AM EDT by plowdriver]
PLEASE somebody buy my house!!!!!! I need out, Ive had to put up with this garbage state filled with pudding headed voters. This state has been so damn screwed. Its run by incompetent corrupt statist ball lickers.

What the court basically is doing is substituting their own version of reallity. If Christie was the great bloated hope that people claim; he would declare NJ BANKRUPT, which it has been for years. Then renegotiate all contracts and void pensions. Yes go screw if you collect a pension as a NJ state worker or teacher. Im sick of paying for you to run off to florida and collect 65k a year. Yes you worked 35hrs a week for 20years and had 2 months vacation each year . Heres a cookie, go fuck yourself.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:16:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


If so, Christie needs to just run the state off the cliff early in his term and then rebuild it.



Then Christie and his "evil conservative" agenda will be blamed for fucking up NJ and not the "do it for the children" mentality. I think he would be slightly better off if he stands by his decision and fights em tooth and nail.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:16:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:21:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By plowdriver:
PLEASE somebody buy my house!!!!!! I need out, Ive had to put up with this garbage state filled with pudding headed voters. This state has been so damn screwed. Its run by incompetent corrupt statist ball lickers.



With a sales pitch like that, where do I sign?
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:21:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By asddff33:
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


If so, Christie needs to just run the state off the cliff early in his term and then rebuild it.



Then Christie and his "evil conservative" agenda will be blamed for fucking up NJ and not the "do it for the children" mentality. I think he would be slightly better off if he stands by his decision and fights em tooth and nail.


+1

The Courts are just trying to train-track the state into a tax increase. It's disgusting.

The elites really are dropping their masks - we're nothing more than serfs to them and they aren't even bothering to hide it anymore.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:24:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


If so, Christie needs to just run the state off the cliff early in his term and then rebuild it.



Yes, and no. There's a difference between saying "we can't comply" and "compliance will be really hard". The first might be grounds for relief; the second not so much.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:24:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LoBrau:
Originally Posted By plowdriver:
PLEASE somebody buy my house!!!!!! I need out, Ive had to put up with this garbage state filled with pudding headed voters. This state has been so damn screwed. Its run by incompetent corrupt statist ball lickers.



With a sales pitch like that, where do I sign?



At least it isnt California
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:26:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:26:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


The law's the law.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:28:17 AM EDT
"Long has made his decision, now let him enforce it"
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:29:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
NOW I GET IT:

N.J. Supreme Court orders state to prove Christie's funding formula is sufficient
TRENTON — After cutting spending for schools by about $1 billion last year, the Christie administration today was ordered by the New Jersey Supreme Court to prove the reduced funding can sufficiently provide a "thorough and efficient education" to the nearly 1.4 million children in the state’s classrooms.

The state’s highest court, which last week heard oral arguments in the long-running Abbott v. Burke school funding case, appointed a "special master" to hold further hearings — and report by March 31— on the constitutionality of the current funding levels.

Calling the obligation to fund schools "a fundamental responsibility of the state," the Supreme Court again named Superior Court Judge Peter Doyne to hold hearings in the case and submit proposed fact-findings and conclusions of law. Doyne served as special master in an earlier round of the Abbott case, in 2008.


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/nj_supreme_court_orders_state.html


Was just about to post that..
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:30:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By plowdriver:
PLEASE somebody buy my house!!!!!! I need out, Ive had to put up with this garbage state filled with pudding headed voters. This state has been so damn screwed. Its run by incompetent corrupt statist ball lickers.



Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:32:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
I'm starting to think countries where the Military is considered the guardian of last resort of the national interest is better than our system where the Courts occupy that role.



This is EXACTLY the sort of thinking that precedes a military coup in many countries around the world.


Steve

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:34:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By plowdriver:
PLEASE somebody buy my house!!!!!! I need out, Ive had to put up with this garbage state filled with pudding headed voters. This state has been so damn screwed. Its run by incompetent corrupt statist ball lickers.

What the court basically is doing is substituting their own version of reallity. If Christie was the great bloated hope that people claim; he would declare NJ BANKRUPT, which it has been for years. Then renegotiate all contracts and void pensions. Yes go screw if you collect a pension as a NJ state worker or teacher. Im sick of paying for you to run off to florida and collect 65k a year. Yes you worked 35hrs a week for 20years and had 2 months vacation each year . Heres a cookie, go fuck yourself.


9/10 on the rant. Needs more of the "statist ball lickers" telling the serfs to work harder to be perfect.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:37:42 AM EDT
Sounds like NJ needs an ammendment to their state constitution limiting the courts authority in matters of finance.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:40:40 AM EDT
Must be nice to be a judge; never having to deal with 'reality', and just making up 'legality', sounds fun.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:45:58 AM EDT
If education is mandated by the State Constitution like it is in NC, you just have to cut something else. As you get other expenses down, the education line would be more fair game.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:55:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By paris-dakar:
I'm starting to think countries where the Military is considered the guardian of last resort of the national interest is better than our system where the Courts occupy that role.


This is EXACTLY the sort of thinking that precedes a military coup in many countries around the world.

Steve


All other things being equal, I'd rather have the Military forcing tax increases to buy more fighter jets and tanks than the Courts forcing tax increases to finance public sector pensions.

Both are shitty though.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 11:59:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:48:56 PM EDT
NJ Schools are run by criminals. Excellent movie on the subject:

The Cartel

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:50:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By AR-180:
If education is mandated by the State Constitution like it is in NC, you just have to cut something else. As you get other expenses down, the education line would be more fair game.

That's kind of what it sounds like.

He could still prove they're adequately educating kids even with the cut though. Dunno how you'd go about doing that.


How do you prove that when the urbanites haven't improved in test scores but the cost per pupil is gone up to 20K per student....
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:54:18 PM EDT
We have to provide an education. It's not required that it "sticks."
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:57:41 PM EDT
There are two likely situations at play here: 1) (unlikely) the courts have mandated that X money be spent. Well, ok, pass a law that overrides that. 2) (likely) the state constitution mandates that X money be spent. Well, tough. Try to amend the constitution or suck it up.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:58:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By AR-180:
If education is mandated by the State Constitution like it is in NC, you just have to cut something else. As you get other expenses down, the education line would be more fair game.

That's kind of what it sounds like.

He could still prove they're adequately educating kids even with the cut though. Dunno how you'd go about doing that.

That's my read on it. But even so, I think that's doable. Examples of performing schools on tighter budgets, less inflated salaries, etc. Prove that it can be done and prove that Christie has a plan to get it done.

I still think the court is getting close to demanding that they pluck the moon out of the sky and make a chip dip out of it for the superbowl.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 2:30:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By badfish274:
There are two likely situations at play here: 1) (unlikely) the courts have mandated that X money be spent. Well, ok, pass a law that overrides that. 2) (likely) the state constitution mandates that X money be spent. Well, tough. Try to amend the constitution or suck it up.


I can't find anything in the state constitution that mandates that X be spent.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 2:42:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By AR-180:
If education is mandated by the State Constitution like it is in NC, you just have to cut something else. As you get other expenses down, the education line would be more fair game.

That's kind of what it sounds like.

He could still prove they're adequately educating kids even with the cut though. Dunno how you'd go about doing that.

He could start by explicitly stating that any cuts come from administration and other dead-weight overhead, and not anything that has any direct classroom impact.

It sounds like after he's done that, he should find further savings in the judiciary payroll...

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 2:55:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By plowdriver:
Im sick of paying for you to run off to florida and collect 65k a year.


Imagine if they could only collect if they remained in NJ...

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:00:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Originally Posted By badfish274:
There are two likely situations at play here: 1) (unlikely) the courts have mandated that X money be spent. Well, ok, pass a law that overrides that. 2) (likely) the state constitution mandates that X money be spent. Well, tough. Try to amend the constitution or suck it up.


I can't find anything in the state constitution that mandates that X be spent.



If the justices read it to say that, you still have to amend.

They tried this shit in Florida a few years back. Get the courts to mandate a certain amount of money be spent on education. Brilliant fucking idea.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:19:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
NOW I GET IT:

N.J. Supreme Court orders state to prove Christie's funding formula is sufficient
TRENTON — After cutting spending for schools by about $1 billion last year, the Christie administration today was ordered by the New Jersey Supreme Court to prove the reduced funding can sufficiently provide a "thorough and efficient education" to the nearly 1.4 million children in the state’s classrooms.

The state’s highest court, which last week heard oral arguments in the long-running Abbott v. Burke school funding case, appointed a "special master" to hold further hearings — and report by March 31— on the constitutionality of the current funding levels.

Calling the obligation to fund schools "a fundamental responsibility of the state," the Supreme Court again named Superior Court Judge Peter Doyne to hold hearings in the case and submit proposed fact-findings and conclusions of law. Doyne served as special master in an earlier round of the Abbott case, in 2008.


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/nj_supreme_court_orders_state.html


Notice they don't tell you what they cut it from to. Fucking hack journalists.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:23:35 PM EDT
Judges and lawyers will be what destroys this country.


Except for Aimless.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:24:13 PM EDT
Reading between the lines:

Lets stop pissing money away on the urban yutes in Camden, Atlantic City, and Bayonne, NJ. Its an investment the yields little, if any, return.

Good on you, Chris Christie!
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:25:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By plowdriver:
PLEASE somebody buy my house!!!!!! I need out, Ive had to put up with this garbage state filled with pudding headed voters. This state has been so damn screwed. Its run by incompetent corrupt statist ball lickers.

What the court basically is doing is substituting their own version of reallity. If Christie was the great bloated hope that people claim; he would declare NJ BANKRUPT, which it has been for years. Then renegotiate all contracts and void pensions. Yes go screw if you collect a pension as a NJ state worker or teacher. Im sick of paying for you to run off to florida and collect 65k a year. Yes you worked 35hrs a week for 20years and had 2 months vacation each year . Heres a cookie, go fuck yourself.


States cannot declare bankrupty and be absolved of its debts like a person.

Some of my roads in Central N could use a good plow driver right about now...
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:26:41 PM EDT
Why doesn't Christie just cut the pay of the State Supreme Court judges by, lets say, 80% and take away their retirement funding? Just tell them he's going to shift those funds to the schools.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:27:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Extorris:
Originally Posted By plowdriver:
PLEASE somebody buy my house!!!!!! I need out, Ive had to put up with this garbage state filled with pudding headed voters. This state has been so damn screwed. Its run by incompetent corrupt statist ball lickers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v361/Extorris/Pics/images-2.jpg



Your avatar and this picture just go together... Peanutbutter and Jelly.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 4:01:41 PM EDT
Maybe if there wasn't 3 different public schools in every 1/2 square mile town in this state, it wouldn't be an issue. I mean seriously, if you drive up and down the highways of this state, you'll go through 10 different towns for every 30 miles you drive. Each one of those towns has its own school district, superintendent, 3 to 5 public schools, a principal for each, some even have a superintendent and principal for each, a set of teachers in every room, building maintenance personnel, extra curricular expenses... I'm all for shared services in this state, but Police and Fire is not where it should start. It should start where it will have the most financial impact and the least negative impact on the tax payers and that's clearly in the dam schools. The employees are paid more, they have higher levels of benefits and the costs to maintain the redundant system is exponential. Combine the school districts, reduce the amount of actual buildings, reduce the amount of staff and you ultimately reduce the amount of redundant funding.

State employees are not all to blame for this mess either. It has a lot to do with the decades of pilfering, self serving politics that allowed government to rob the state's line items blind, one at a time. Don't think for one dam minute that any of our great judges, house members, senators, congressman, etc... are hurting for a meal or worried about their futures. Hell, Chris Christie appears as if he hasn't missed a fuckin meal in his entire life. These people are getting richer while they rob this state blind and then spin the media to make everyone think the state's line level and lower paid employees are completely to blame. They've made most of this states sadly uninformed sheepish population believe that Cops, Fireman and Teachers are the reason the state's broke. They took the bait hook line and sinker and now think its ok to pay the same amount for half as much. They've got this state convinced that reducing the amount of service providers you have will result in the same service, but you don't see any money coming back to you in the form of tax cuts, that's for dam sure. Just less for more, that's what Christie and his cronies have shoveled fed this state and they ate it up! Is there duplication of service and way too many citizens on the state's payroll, absolutely, but the larger problem lies way up top where the dollar figure is a hell of a lot higher and the reasons for payment are down right criminal.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 4:11:58 PM EDT
NJ Constitution says the schools must get funding as the court see's fit.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 4:37:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gregert12:
NJ Constitution says the schools must get funding as the court see's fit.


Wow. That is a state controlled by the corrupt teachers unions

If they want to change it, they will have to change their constitution first. Easier said than done.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 4:56:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 5:06:05 PM EDT
That's a hell of a job title.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 5:28:04 PM EDT
How many armies does this judge have. Christie should tell him to stick his decision up his ass then arrest him.

I know, but a man can dream...
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 5:29:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
So is there a lower court decision that has ruled on this?


I am guessing, based on the info in the quote, that there is a permanent decree from that 30 year-old case, with a special master already in place to receive evidence on compliance issues. Appellate courts al;most never hear evidence, even in cases over which they have original jurisdiction. In other words, there was not a new case over what I take to be underfunding of schools in violation of the antique decree.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 5:35:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RutgersHellfish:
How many armies does this judge have. Christie should tell him to stick his decision up his ass then arrest him.

I know, but a man can dream...

Banana Republic style

New Jersey seems to need its Special Master
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 7:10:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gregert12:
NJ Constitution says the schools must get funding as the court see's fit.


Takes control away from the people entirely, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 7:11:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


The law's the law.


Just because a court rules something doesn't make it the law or in conformance with the law. Unless Christie violated the State Constitution or something he should just tell the court to go screw itself if he loses the case.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 7:27:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
So the courts are saying we dont care what the state can or cannot afford, you must do this or that?


The law's the law.


Just because a court rules something doesn't make it the law or in conformance with the law. Unless Christie violated the State Constitution or something he should just tell the court to go screw itself if he loses the case.

In banana republics.

In our country, "just because a court rules on something" does in fact make it the law and in conformance with the law.



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