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Posted: 1/8/2005 7:07:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:08:15 AM EDT
WTF?!?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:10:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By schapman43:
I cant find anything about it on ATF.GOV.



That's because they don't control them. Their website sucks for doing searches anyway.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:13:00 AM EDT
If the black powder rifle can be converted to a rifle. In Mi you need purchase permit for starter pistols.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:14:31 AM EDT
I didn't think black powder fell under the rules like that, i see Black powder rifles at Wal-Mart on the shelves.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:16:08 AM EDT
Did they show credentials when they showed up? If not, tell them to get out.

There may a ruling that sales of the TC Encore with blackpowder barrel requires the 4473 and a NICS.

A local gun shop runs all blackpowder firearm sales through their bound book, the 4473, and NICS - the owner is adding a lyer of CYA.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:19:00 AM EDT
Wrong.

You can buy muzzleloading firearms and have them shipped to you over the internet. No background czech necessary.


Originally Posted By schapman43:
The ATF came in the other day and claimed people buying black powder firearms and starter pistols had to fill out a 4473 and go through a NICS check. I dont think that is correct. I thought anyone could buy black powder guns. I cant find anything about it on ATF.GOV. Anyone have any more info?

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:35:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Did they show credentials when they showed up? If not, tell them to get out.

There may a ruling that sales of the TC Encore with blackpowder barrel requires the 4473 and a NICS.

A local gun shop runs all blackpowder firearm sales through their bound book, the 4473, and NICS - the owner is adding a lyer of CYA.



If you can buy centerfire barrels for said muzzleloader it needs 4473. Encore and H&R are two of them.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:40:32 AM EDT
Depends on the state...in NY, if you want to buy a blackpowder pistol (say a Colt or Remington repro), you need to do a 4473 and file a permit amendment, to add the handgun to your permit.

Yes, I'm serious. You could go to PA and buy a repro Colt Walker, but you'd have to do the 4473 dance in NY to keep it, and file the permit amendment paperwork.

Screwy, eh?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:43:47 AM EDT
Not in any NON-SOCIALIST States. In Florida I can just get one off the shelf. No 4473 or other BS
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:47:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 7:48:37 AM EDT by LightningLink]
I'm not sure what that guy was talking about, but Cabela's, Midway USA and Dixie Gun works (to name a few) have been selling black powder rifles, pistols and revolvers for years shipping directly to the purchaser without a 4473 or NICS.

The ATF site doesn't appear to have a specific place which defines blackpowder firearms, but they do cover it to some degree under the definition of "antique firearms".

atf.treas.gov/firearms/firearmstech/111804antiquefirearm.pdf

As of October 21, 1998, the definition of "antique firearms" is as follows:
(16) The term "antique firearm" means --
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or
before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such
replica --
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or
conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United
States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle
loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black
powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For
purposes of this subparagraph, the term 'antique firearm' shall not
include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver,
any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any
muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed
ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any
combination thereof.
Below is a list of known muzzle loading weapons to be "firearms" as
defined in 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 921(a)(3). They are NOT
antique firearms as defined above:
· H&R/New England Firearms (NEF) Huntsman
· Thompson Center Encore and Contender
· Savage Model 10ML (1st version)
· Mossberg 500 with muzzle loading barrel
· Remington 870 with muzzle loading barrel
· Mauser 98 with muzzle loading barrel
· SKS with muzzle loading barrel
· RPB sM10 with muzzle loading barrel
· Muzzle loading penguns



So if I'm reading it correctly, most blackpowder firearms fall under the definition of "antique firearms". From their FAQ section:


(A4) Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA?
No. [18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 3) and (16), 27 CFR 178.11 and 178.141( d)]



So some blackpowder firearms do fall under the GCA since they can be "readily converted" to use rimfire or centerfire ammunition. I wonder where cap-n-ball revolvers fit into this since they can use replacement cylinders that fire 45LC.

LL
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:51:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LightningLink:
I'm not sure what that guy was talking about, but Cabela's, Midway USA and Dixie Gun works (to name a few) have been selling black powder rifles, pistols and revolvers for years shipping directly to the purchaser without a 4473 or NICS.

The ATF site doesn't appear to have a specific place which defines blackpowder firearms, but they do cover it to some degree under the definition of "antique firearms".

atf.treas.gov/firearms/firearmstech/111804antiquefirearm.pdf

As of October 21, 1998, the definition of "antique firearms" is as follows:
(16) The term "antique firearm" means --
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or
before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such
replica --
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or
conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United
States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle
loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black
powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For
purposes of this subparagraph, the term 'antique firearm' shall not
include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver,
any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any
muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed
ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any
combination thereof.
Below is a list of known muzzle loading weapons to be "firearms" as
defined in 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 921(a)(3). They are NOT
antique firearms as defined above:
· H&R/New England Firearms (NEF) Huntsman
· Thompson Center Encore and Contender
· Savage Model 10ML (1st version)
· Mossberg 500 with muzzle loading barrel
· Remington 870 with muzzle loading barrel
· Mauser 98 with muzzle loading barrel
· SKS with muzzle loading barrel
· RPB sM10 with muzzle loading barrel
· Muzzle loading penguns



So if I'm reading it correctly, most blackpowder firearms fall under the definition of "antique firearms". From their FAQ section:


(A4) Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA?
No. [18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 3) and (16), 27 CFR 178.11 and 178.141( d)]



So some blackpowder firearms do fall under the GCA since they can be "readily converted" to use rimfire or centerfire ammunition. I wonder where cap-n-ball revolvers fit into this since they can use replacement cylinders that fire 45LC.

LL



Last I heard, cap-and-ball revolvers didn't count, unfortunately.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:52:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 7:54:26 AM EDT by ebgb68]
Sometimes I hate Mi.... Pistol permit is needed for rifled pellet pistols.177 or larger. I'm suprised they don't register paintball guns yet.
All black powder pistol are registered also.
No 4473 for non convertable black powder long guns
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