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Posted: 12/23/2003 8:23:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 8:31:53 PM EDT by rickinvegas]
A good friend and a real gun guy called me tonight perplexed.  He is not an AR15.com member but posted the problem on another board and is getting a lot of responses citing "Code Orange" terror alert as a possible cause of the problem.  A lot of people are saying they are hearing more of this in recent days.  Here is the text of his post.....Any thoughts??

"Me and my fellow journeyman bought our apprentice a mosin nagant m91/30 for xmas
we took him down after work today, and he filled out his 4473 for his first ever firearm purchase.

Long story short, it came back denied

He called me and asked why, and what needs to be done.

I asked him for SURE if he was ever convicted of a felony, or a misdemeanor of domestic violence and he told me the ONLY thing he has on his record is a dui from 9 years ago, but it was just a standard dui, didnt crash, didnt kill anyone, was first and only dui, and he went to court and the lawyer told him it would be off his record in like 7 years or something?? Whatever it was, and he has been clean since.

As far as i know in the state of nevada first time DUI is only a misdemeanor

I told him he needs to go to big5 to get the NICS transaction number, and then go to the state police to find out why he was denied

another friend mentioned going to any metro police station, and telling them to run him like they were pulling him over for speeding to see what his record pulls up.

It was big 5 and the manager at big5 is a dumbass, so theres always the possibility of there being a mistake by them, or what have you?? It is also xmas and when we went after work, he got a delayed because the NICS computer was down at the time. big 5 called him back this evening and told him it was a deny, so there is also a possibility that there was an error from NICS as well



Can ANYONE give any suggestions for this man cause he is worried to death right now, and needs advice

anyone else have to go through this, and what did you have to do to get it fixed?? Anyone know if this is a common thing??

I know everytime i go to do anything like this they want to give me a delay but i pull my right sleeve on my tshirt up and show the person doing the check that i dont have any tattoos on my right arm and it always gets approved after that. Ive been told that they do not concentrate on social security number on a background check. Instead its name based and anyone with your name thats a felon will throw a flag


any advice at all even insignificant would be appreciated

Im gonna send him this link in email, and hopefully he will register and join the topic cause id REALLY like to see him get this gun, and anything anyone may be able to offer to this topic im sure will certainly ease his mind a little bit??


Thanks


Mike"


Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:27:51 PM EDT
One.

Stop typing in italics.

Two.

Stop buying from Big 5.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:31:24 PM EDT
I dont think he was DENIED. If he was denied I think the cops would have showed up.

Are you sure he was not DELAYED?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:34:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
I dont think he was DENIED. If he was denied I think the cops would have showed up.

Are you sure he was not DELAYED?
View Quote


No, he was DENIED after being delayed, we double checked



Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:35:38 PM EDT
A delay or deny message from the NICS indicates that either you or another individual with a similar name and/or similar descriptive features has been matched with one or more of the following federally prohibitive criteria:

A.  Convicted of/under indictment (information) for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, whether or not sentence was imposed.

B.  Persons who are fugitives from justice.

C.  An unlawful user and/or an addict of any controlled substance.

D.  Adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution.

E.   An alien illegally/unlawfully in the United States, with the exception of nonimmigrants pursuant to Subsection (y)(2).

F.   Dishonorable Discharge from the United States Armed Forces.

G.  A renouncer of United States citizenship.

H.  The subject of a protective order.

I.    Convicted of a crime of domestic violence.  

View Quote
He should appeal. [url=http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsappeals.htm]Here[/url] is the form.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:38:00 PM EDT
I Bet he didn't use his SSN, I did't use mine once and was greeted by two friendly FBI agents.
There is a person in this state with the same first and last name, same birthday, same physical description, The middle name was different than mine. They thought they had their boy. They had it all cleared up in a couple of hours, but ever since then I have used my SSN on the 4473 form
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:46:01 PM EDT
in my experience when the computer is down then you don't even get to talk to the person doing the check. there is a recorded message that says "our sustem is down, call back later". if the system was down how could he get delayed? and how would they give the NICS transaction number if the system is down? the transaction number is given at the time of being delayed. the only way to find out why you are delayed is to follow the guidelines in the appeal process. he should have gotten a brochure from them with the NICS number on it and the appropriate steps to follow.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:50:23 PM EDT
More on possible reasons for denial:

Federal Categories of Persons Prohibited From Receiving

1. A Person convicted of/under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, whether or not sentence was imposed. This includes misdemeanor offenses with a potential term of imprisonment in excess of two years, whether or not the sentence was imposed.

View Quote

So, even if his DUI was a misdemeanor, if the potential existed at the time for a two-year sentence, he may be rung up. Your friend needs to go through the appeal process to find out. I hope the other parties involved have the good sense not to straw-purchase the firearm for the denied party in the meantime. It'd be a shame to go up the river for a WWII-issue Russian bolt-action rifle.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:00:50 PM EDT
Which Big5?

Just curious.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:08:53 PM EDT
No matter what shop I purchase from, it always takes between 45mins-1hour to go through. Four or five people could come in, buy, and leave before my name is cleared and comes back 'ok'. My brother and grandfather's name are cleared within a few mins.        

My name is uncommon, and I'm sure there aren't more then 10 people in the USA with the same name. I have asked at two seperate shops, but they do not know why. Makes for a hasle.

Good luck getting an answer.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:21:51 PM EDT
get a CCW then you skip the NICS check for a long gun.......JMO
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:41:34 PM EDT
The reasons are varied and sometimes insane.

Things that have caused delays or denials.

your address does not match DMV.
outstanding tickets, you may have forgotten one.
They have you confused with someone else.
Actually any little thing may set it off.

There may also be bogus information in the database.  

In Nevada the state police (read NHP) does the checks.  I would suggest that he go through the formal appeals process and get it straightened out.

Unfortunately this is one of the Guilty until proven innocent that otherwise normal people have to go through to excersize their constitutional rights.  It is not right.  
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:44:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
I hope the other parties involved have the good sense not to straw-purchase the firearm for the denied party in the meantime. It'd be a shame to go up the river for a WWII-issue Russian bolt-action rifle.
View Quote


There is nothing special about this rifle of course except for the fact that it is a gift and it will be this guys first firearm.  With that being said, Since I have a CCW and will not be dinged for the the NICS charge, I am going to go down tomorrow and buy the gun and then transfer it to a friend with a type 7/SOT.  He will then try to get the NICS through in a couple of days.  If it is denied again, we will at least be dealing with a FFL we know and trust to do the process right.  The guy will then go through the appeal process.  Again, it isn't that this is a special gun but the guy is concerned.

Thanks to everyone for the comments thus far.

Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:03:22 PM EDT
Now that is just weird.... especially if there are more "denied" about now....

Dumb question.... weither it matter or not... but is the person(s) buying caucasan or _____?  I know it shouldn't matter........
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:05:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 10:09:54 PM EDT by Kooter]
Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
I hope the other parties involved have the good sense not to straw-purchase the firearm for the denied party in the meantime. It'd be a shame to go up the river for a WWII-issue Russian bolt-action rifle.
View Quote


There is nothing special about this rifle of course except for the fact that it is a gift and it will be this guys first firearm.  With that being said, Since I have a CCW and will not be dinged for the the NICS charge, I am going to go down tomorrow and buy the gun and then transfer it to a friend with a type 7/SOT.  He will then try to get the NICS through in a couple of days.  If it is denied again, we will at least be dealing with a FFL we know and trust to do the process right.  The guy will then go through the appeal process.  Again, it isn't that this is a special gun but the guy is concerned.

Thanks to everyone for the comments thus far.

View Quote


i don't think i would have him try the check again. you could probably get away with it in court saying that he didn't know he couldn't have a firearm, but if you try it a second time he would be stuck. he knew he was denied. go through the appeals process, that is what it is there for.

get a CCW then you skip the NICS check for a long gun.......JMO
View Quote


not all states allow a CCW in place of a background check. as of november 30, 2003 many states that used "grandfathered permits" do not now.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:08:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By longun45:
The reasons are varied and sometimes insane.

Things that have caused delays or denials.

your address does not match DMV.
outstanding tickets, you may have forgotten one.
They have you confused with someone else.
Actually any little thing may set it off.
View Quote


Or you could be like my wife, and have two middle names but live in a state that wont let you put both of them on your driver's license, so instead of "Michelle Amanda Darlene Smith", for example, your DL has "MICHELLE AD SMITH" on it. I'm pretty sure that contributed to her getting delayed the one and only time she tried buying something.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:05:12 AM EDT
I thought that if NICS was "down" that they HAD to sell the gun.  If not, the gov't could decide to stop allowing firearms to be sold by dealers whenever it wanted, a la "Oops, NICS is down for a week/month.  We are not sure when it will be back up, but we're 'working on it'."
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:07:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jtb33:
I thought that if NICS was "down" that they HAD to sell the gun.  If not, the gov't could decide to stop allowing firearms to be sold by dealers whenever it wanted, a la "Oops, NICS is down for a week/month.  We are not sure when it will be back up, but we're 'working on it'."
View Quote


It is no responce for three days //////sell the gun.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:16:01 AM EDT
Correct, it is three days, but good luck finding a dealer with enough guts to still sell you the firearm.   I finally found one, and I've bought every firearm I own from her.  I've never been approved by NICS nor have I ever been denied.  I can't protest it since the BATF has a scam going with the transaction number.  You can appeal without a transaction #, and they claim they don't assign a transaction number until it's either approved or denied.  So, they have a freehand in delaying any sale for three days and preventing sales from most dealers.z
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:24:11 AM EDT
Any of the reasons stated above but I really doubt it has anything thing to do with code orange.  They should sell more firearms during the higher alert codes, not less[uzi]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:36:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By varmitgun:
get a CCW then you skip the NICS check for a long gun.......JMO
View Quote


NOT true in every state. Kentucky being one that does not let CCDW bypass NICS. It has to do with KY doing their own background check for the CCDW.

Bob

Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:39:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By varmitgun:
get a CCW then you skip the NICS check for a long gun.......JMO
View Quote



Try that at Wal-Mart.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:40:38 AM EDT
That really sucks. I always get delayed with no response. I have also never been refused a sale after those 3 days are up. What is up with SC FFLs?

Bob



Originally Posted By zoom:
Correct, it is three days, but good luck finding a dealer with enough guts to still sell you the firearm.   I finally found one, and I've bought every firearm I own from her.  I've never been approved by NICS nor have I ever been denied.  I can't protest it since the BATF has a scam going with the transaction number.  You can appeal without a transaction #, and they claim they don't assign a transaction number until it's either approved or denied.  So, they have a freehand in delaying any sale for three days and preventing sales from most dealers.z
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:41:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:52:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
I dont think he was DENIED. If he was denied I think the cops would have showed up.

Are you sure he was not DELAYED?
View Quote


In the 3 denieds I have ever had, not once did the cops show up.

In one case I WISH they had.
View Quote


Explain!  [:)]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:00:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:19:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By jtb33:
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
I dont think he was DENIED. If he was denied I think the cops would have showed up.

Are you sure he was not DELAYED?
View Quote


In the 3 denieds I have ever had, not once did the cops show up.

In one case I WISH they had.
View Quote


Explain!  [:)]
View Quote


[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=199153&w=searchPop[/url]
View Quote



So...are they supposed to show up if someone is denied?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:35:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By newbushmaster:
No matter what shop I purchase from, it always takes between 45mins-1hour to go through. Four or five people could come in, buy, and leave before my name is cleared and comes back 'ok'. My brother and grandfather's name are cleared within a few mins.        

My name is uncommon, and I'm sure there aren't more then 10 people in the USA with the same name. I have asked at two seperate shops, but they do not know why. Makes for a hasle.

Good luck getting an answer.
View Quote


I have the same problem A 1-3 hour delay.  

It all started because I bought firearms and ammo from a FFL that was arrested and convicted of some irregularities.  He's already out of prison, I'm sure, but I'm still hasseled every time.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:37:08 AM EDT
DO NOT have your friend try to buy again. Get the paperwork going with NICS to get it straightened out. It will at a minimum cause a screwup with the system and could be much worse.


Also, DO NOT BUY the firearm and transfer it to them, under any circumstances, until it is fixed.

I am not aware of any threat level tie in to the NICS system.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:51:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
I dont think he was DENIED. If he was denied I think the cops would have showed up.

Are you sure he was not DELAYED?
View Quote



I have denied several people and never had the cops show up.

One time I actually denied a COP! Domestic Violence....
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 1:37:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFNG:
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
I dont think he was DENIED. If he was denied I think the cops would have showed up.

Are you sure he was not DELAYED?
View Quote



I have denied several people and never had the cops show up.

One time I actually denied a COP! Domestic Violence....
View Quote


Yup...that domestic violence clause really screwed people up..... from what I hear.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 1:41:07 PM EDT
He has to go through the appeals or he will never know.

One time it took me twenty one years to get something straighten out with the government.

Life is not fair or instant.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 4:31:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 4:41:46 PM EDT
I bought a Kimber today, 15 minutes from the time I walked in the door 'til I walked our with the Kimber under my arm. [:D]

I have never had it take more than about 30 minutes to get approved.

Jamie
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 9:52:06 PM EDT
As usual different fates for different states and answers being given based on where the answerer is and not where the questioner is.

Has he ever had a Security Clearance?  Has a clearance investigation ever been started and the stopped for any reason?  Has a Clearance ever been revoked (other than an administrative downgrade or removal - the job doesn't need one anymore, etc)?  any of those things can cause a hickup in national checks.

File the appeal, and don't knowingly transfer after a denial, you just might find out the hard way that your acquaintance has a background he didn't want to talk about.  The shit he lets you step in may be deeper than you ever imagined.  I've worked in HR and Personnel Security and have found a few guys that have fibbed about things and it can get pretty intense.  I've also seen a case where a 20 year employee had submitted the wrong SSN 20 years before and we found it when the person with that number was hired.  Don't know how they resolved it, but there were some interesting tax and SSA account problems to solve.  Yeah, like who paid how much in and who should get the credits.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:15:48 PM EDT


 I'm glad I live in Arizona.

 All I have to do to get my handguns or rifles.
Just show my CCW permit and fill out yellow form.

 Pay for new gun and some ammo. Then walk out the door. That simple. Even at Wal-Mart's
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:38:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 11:13:19 PM EDT
I SERIOUSLY doubt the "code orange" has anything to do with it.  Yesterday was our busiest day of the year and I called in atleast 40-50 4473's and all were PROCEED.  

When NICS is down they have a precorded message saying nics is down and usually give a estimate when it will be back up.  If it IS DOWN then there is no way he could have gotten a delay.  Maybe the manager didn't wanna go thru the hassle of calling back and trying to get a proceed and do all the work for a 150 dollar rifle.  

The gunstore I work at will call you after 3 business days and will sell you the gun.  Usually NICS calls on the 3rd day and says it is still on delay but tomorrow you can legally sell the gun or wait on NICS to give a proceed.  
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 11:17:37 PM EDT
Correct, it is three days, but good luck finding a dealer with enough guts to still sell you the firearm. I finally found one, and I've bought every firearm I own from her. I've never been approved by NICS nor have I ever been denied
View Quote


that is 3 business days. saturday and sunday don't count. neither do some holidays. the day you do the check doesn't count either(some dealers may do that a little different, i don't know). so if you came in on friday and were delayed, technically you could pick up the gun on thursday, although as you stated we wait for a proceed before we allow the sale, even if it takes a month or more.
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