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Posted: 10/18/2004 8:03:15 AM EST
Okay, I have few questions. How can we stop the flow of jobs into Mexico and China? We are losing a lot of manufacturing ability and I think part of it is because of NAFTA. That and company owners are finding it convenient to blame high costs, when it's just an excuse to increase their profits at the cost of jobs here in the states.

Secondly, with all the corruption in the U.N. and its total lack of effectiveness, why are we not getting out? It's obviously outlived its usefulness.

Last, why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada? Is it because of government subsidies? Are they the same drugs and the same brands that we get here in the states, or are they knockoffs like something from Joe and Eddie's Medicine Factory?

I mean...what's the deal?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:14:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By rn45:
Last, why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada? Is it because of government subsidies? Are they the same drugs and the same brands that we get here in the states, or are they knockoffs like something from Joe and Eddie's Medicine Factory?

I mean...what's the deal?



Canada is a monopoly. They set a price and drug makers can either supply or not serve the market. Canada has a lot less drugs available than the US. Canada government also threatens drug companies, if they don't supply a drug Canada wants cheaply Canada will break their patent and buy a pirated version from China or India.

We could save a lot of money by buying pirated drugs from China but those drugs could kill a lot of people plus all research on new medecine would stop.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:55:48 PM EST
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper?

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:57:46 PM EST
You can mail-order generic drugs for less than people pay for them in Canada.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:01:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:

Originally Posted By rn45:
Last, why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada? Is it because of government subsidies? Are they the same drugs and the same brands that we get here in the states, or are they knockoffs like something from Joe and Eddie's Medicine Factory?

I mean...what's the deal?



Canada is a monopoly. They set a price and drug makers can either supply or not serve the market. Canada has a lot less drugs available than the US. Canada government also threatens drug companies, if they don't supply a drug Canada wants cheaply Canada will break their patent and buy a pirated version from China or India.

We could save a lot of money by buying pirated drugs from China but those drugs could kill a lot of people plus all research on new medecine would stop.

GunLvr



Canada picks a disorder, then picks a single drug for it, and buys it in uuber-mass qualtities, which gives them a big discount.

They buy them from American pharmaceutical companies.

If Kerry got his way and bought drugs from Canada, the effects would be as follows: American prices for drugs would not change. Canada's cost for drugs would go way up (to how much American drugs cost now)
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:05:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?



Hey, if you as a private citizen want to buy 1,000,000 pills of viagra, I'm sure they'll give you a big discount.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:24:07 PM EST
Well, I'm not an expert on how things actually work (and I guess none of you are either) but it's O.K. for us all to have our assumptions, and I'm not wanting to pick an arguement on BUD's thread, but.....All I know is I live in a country where I pay fairly high taxes... BUTmost essential services, including Healthe Care, usually do not have additional fees. And drugs, etc. are reasonably priced. We do not get them from some little Chinese guy in the back alley nor do we boil bat wings in lieu of name brand stuff.
If we break a leg we go get it fixed and walk out. If we need surgery on something we get it and stay in the hosp. fir a while and then just walk out. All my relativeslive in the U.S. (I'm 1st generation Canadian raised in U.S. and Canada) have to pay big bucks to have a kid or any ailment for that matter! We don't pay a dime extra, and they don't use dirty, used bandages either!
We do have a lot of gov't. involvement in most essential services, but that's not because we are Communist (as some have suggested time and time again some threads) that's because we have voted and directed our gov't officials to provide certain serviced to us thru our taxes.
Do we get taken? Sure, just look at our new gun control laws! But that occured because of the vocal minority making demands, and the majority of us were 'too busy doing nothing' or something to oppose it! Just like what happened in the U.S.
We have clean air, water and land; lots of space; lots of resources; lots of opportunities; lots of freedoms; and because we don't pay a fortune for health care, etc., we have money left over to spend on other stuff. We also don't have a lot of the other social ills you are plagued with.
All I know is things are pretty good up here, so the idea of having higher drug prices really doesn't seem that appealing to me.
Thanx anyway.
(no offence intended to my friends down South, but some of you struck a nerve with the ramblings and Commie talk)
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:27:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By 76R:
If we break a leg we go get it fixed and walk out. If we need surgery on something we get it and stay in the hosp. fir a while and then just walk out. All my relativeslive in the U.S. (I'm 1st generation Canadian raised in U.S. and Canada) have to pay big bucks to have a kid or any ailment for that matter! We don't pay a dime extra, and they don't use dirty, used bandages either!




I'll have to tell this to my friend who had a broken leg and had to set up an appointment to have it fixed 4 weeks down the road. I think he might disagree.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:35:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper?

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.



In the case of China they simply steal the formulas and make pirated drugs.

Americans are not really being screwed--we're paying what the drugs should cost, what they have to cost to get developed (and pay for all the failed development and lawsuits). Canada is free-riding on out success. But if we adopt a screwy Canadian system we'll have cheap drugs but no new drug development. It's possible the drug revolution of the 1980s-90s is already over because of over-regulation, price controls, and law suits. And that will cost many, many lives and suffering.

What proof do you have that "elderly" Americans lose their lives because of drug costs? Many of them seem to do a lot better than me. Just talked to some elderly neighbors the other day. They are driving their new minivan down to their place in Ft. Myers.

Just saw an article a few days back that if Clinton lived in Canada it would have taken him 8 weeks to get his heart bypass instead of a couple of days.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:46:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By 76R:
Well, I'm not an expert on how things actually work (and I guess none of you are either) but it's O.K. for us all to have our assumptions, and I'm not wanting to pick an arguement on BUD's thread, but.....All I know is I live in a country where I pay fairly high taxes... BUTmost essential services, including Healthe Care, usually do not have additional fees. And drugs, etc. are reasonably priced. We do not get them from some little Chinese guy in the back alley nor do we boil bat wings in lieu of name brand stuff.
If we break a leg we go get it fixed and walk out. If we need surgery on something we get it and stay in the hosp. fir a while and then just walk out. All my relativeslive in the U.S. (I'm 1st generation Canadian raised in U.S. and Canada) have to pay big bucks to have a kid or any ailment for that matter! We don't pay a dime extra, and they don't use dirty, used bandages either!
We do have a lot of gov't. involvement in most essential services, but that's not because we are Communist (as some have suggested time and time again some threads) that's because we have voted and directed our gov't officials to provide certain serviced to us thru our taxes.
Do we get taken? Sure, just look at our new gun control laws! But that occured because of the vocal minority making demands, and the majority of us were 'too busy doing nothing' or something to oppose it! Just like what happened in the U.S.
We have clean air, water and land; lots of space; lots of resources; lots of opportunities; lots of freedoms; and because we don't pay a fortune for health care, etc., we have money left over to spend on other stuff. We also don't have a lot of the other social ills you are plagued with.
All I know is things are pretty good up here, so the idea of having higher drug prices really doesn't seem that appealing to me.
Thanx anyway.
(no offence intended to my friends down South, but some of you struck a nerve with the ramblings and Commie talk)



This is B.S. Women with breast cancer have to wait months for treatment. Rich Canadians come to U.S. for treatment, paying cash.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:53:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By rn45:
Okay, I have few questions. How can we stop the flow of jobs into Mexico and China? We are losing a lot of manufacturing ability and I think part of it is because of NAFTA. That and company owners are finding it convenient to blame high costs, when it's just an excuse to increase their profits at the cost of jobs here in the states. Companies exist to increase their profits, NOT to provide jobs. Also, when you are paying folks $20/hr to TIGHTEN BOLTS, then it's time to fire the union assholes who are ripping you off & go somewhere where people will work for what the work is actually worth....

The fact is that IT IS NO LONGER ECONIMICAL TO MANUFACTURE IN THE USA, UNLESS YOU'RE A COMPANY FROM EUROPE, WHERE THE UNIONS ARE 10X WORSE!

So jobs flow from high regulation to low regulation... There's a whole 'nother thread on this...


Secondly, with all the corruption in the U.N. and its total lack of effectiveness, why are we not getting out? It's obviously outlived its usefulness. We have a veto over everything they do. If we leave, we lose that veto

Last, why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada? Is it because of government subsidies? Are they the same drugs and the same brands that we get here in the states, or are they knockoffs like something from Joe and Eddie's Medicine Factory?They are SUBSIDIZED by Canadian tax money, and subject to price controls by Canada's socialist medical system.

Because of that sort of , WE get to pay the bill for Canadian & European socialisim.

You see, PRICE controls don't reduce COST, they simply TRANSFER it to others, either by taxes/subsidies or by unloading it on the backs of those who live in free societies....


I mean...what's the deal?

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:59:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 6:03:11 PM EST by DaveS]

Originally Posted By rn45:
Okay, I have few questions. How can we stop the flow of jobs into Mexico and China? We are losing a lot of manufacturing ability and I think part of it is because of NAFTA. That and company owners are finding it convenient to blame high costs, when it's just an excuse to increase their profits at the cost of jobs here in the states.
It's not funny that so many do not understand free interprise and capitalism. I'm not picking on you rn45......I've was laid of at the end of April. BUT!!!!!!!!!! It is not YOUR job. It's the companies' job. If it was your job you could not be laid off or fired from it and you would not have had a supervisor. IT NEVER WAS YOUR GODDAMN JOB AND IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE POTUS TO TRY AND KEEP IT IN THE UNITED STATES. A lot of you silly bitches need to at least remember your civic classes or read Walter Williams. ie: Should the POTUS banned freezer/refidgeraters to save the jobs of the delivery guys that brought ice to your folks ice boxes? Quit yelling about your pussy hurting and that you would like fascist control of economics when it's {not} your job that is at stake. da-da-damn.

Secondly, with all the corruption in the U.N. and its total lack of effectiveness, why are we not getting out? It's obviously outlived its usefulness.

Last, why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada? Is it because of government subsidies? Are they the same drugs and the same brands that we get here in the states, or are they knockoffs like something from Joe and Eddie's Medicine Factory? They really aren't cheaper up there. Now, you actually want cheaper {most likely won't kill you or trash your liver} drups? Reign in the FDA and go with Tort reform.

I mean...what's the deal?



Thus endeth the lesson.....for today. Rest of you, go to India or China.

Dave S

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:14:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By leelaw:


I'll have to tell this to my friend who had a broken leg and had to set up an appointment to have it fixed 4 weeks down the road. I think he might disagree.


Uhh...pardon me, but I think someone is bullshitting you. Unless there is something more to it than that , such as the leg was initially set but needed more complex work after the fact.
I know of a few outrageous incidents happening (in the news) but they are extremely rare and are met by public outrage. It is not acceptable. Our system may be slower due to less facilities but look at our population compared to yours. So some stats are not easily compareable.
Not perfect ... but satisfactory ,and above all...afordable to all nomatter who you are.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:17:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper?

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:23:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper?

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Fascist gun lovers........right here in River City.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:26:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By DaveS:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper?

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Fascist gun lovers........right here in River City.



Another example of a complete moron.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:31:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By alaman:


This is B.S. Women with breast cancer have to wait months for treatment. Rich Canadians come to U.S. for treatment, paying cash.



There is no way to 'WIN' this kind of a discussion as there are all kinds of examples one can come up with (that are ussually published by special interest groups to begin with, and all you and I can do is make reference to someone elses stats) and inevitably it will turn into a "My country is better than your country." kind of thing just like Colt vs.Bushmaster vs. Armalite.
People who can wait may end up waiting. People who can't, get help right away. People who don't want to wait and have money buy their way to the front of the line. (don't forget the Canadian who goes to the U.S., buys his way in front of your neighbor too just cause he has the bucks)
I can honestly say that no-one that I know directly or indirectly has ever had to wait for "ANY"
treatment they needed right away, nor were any waits for "medicalproceedures" unreasonably long.
Regards.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:42:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper? Because they pay 2-3x the taxes, and have some of the worst healthcare available

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?Well, what did they do before those medicines were invented? They can keep doing that, if they cannot pay the price of advancement

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?Better than GOVERNMENT control of our ECONOMY

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Pinko commie morons...

Next plane to North Korea... Pack it up & move out...

Hope you enjoy the 'paradize' of governmetn control of everything, no evil corporations to ruin your day...

Say hi to Kim Jong Il for me...

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:44:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By 76R:

Originally Posted By alaman:


This is B.S. Women with breast cancer have to wait months for treatment. Rich Canadians come to U.S. for treatment, paying cash.



There is no way to 'WIN' this kind of a discussion as there are all kinds of examples one can come up with (that are ussually published by special interest groups to begin with, and all you and I can do is make reference to someone elses stats) and inevitably it will turn into a "My country is better than your country." kind of thing just like Colt vs.Bushmaster vs. Armalite.
People who can wait may end up waiting. People who can't, get help right away. People who don't want to wait and have money buy their way to the front of the line. (don't forget the Canadian who goes to the U.S., buys his way in front of your neighbor too just cause he has the bucks)
I can honestly say that no-one that I know directly or indirectly has ever had to wait for "ANY"
treatment they needed right away, nor were any waits for "medicalproceedures" unreasonably long.
Regards.



My uncle (a Canadian) has severe back problems... Due to the decrepit state of your health care system, he comes to the USA for treatment. He is not 'rich', but he would rather spend what money he has for good, for-profit American healthcare, than subject himself to your government's system...

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:46:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 6:47:47 PM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper? Because they pay 2-3x the taxes, and have some of the worst healthcare available

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?Well, what did they do before those medicines were invented? They can keep doing that, if they cannot pay the price of advancement

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?Better than GOVERNMENT control of our ECONOMY

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Pinko commie morons...

Next plane to North Korea... Pack it up & move out...

Hope you enjoy the 'paradize' of governmetn control of everything, no evil corporations to ruin your day...

Say hi to Kim Jong Il for me...




Nice try Moron, but your the RED CHINA supporter. Who is it that wants to move all of America's manufacturing to China? That would be you! I'm damn proud of American workers and there products. America is not #1 by accident.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:48:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 6:49:04 PM EST by DaveS]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By DaveS:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper?

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Fascist gun lovers........right here in River City.



Another example of a complete moron.



Bullshit, VA_Dinger. There is no other term for it. Now, if you started your own da-da-damn drug company and competed...........then hell, I'd say you were practicing free enterprise and capitalism.

Dave S
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:52:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By DaveS:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By DaveS:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper?

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Fascist gun lovers........right here in River City.



Another example of a complete moron.



Bullshit, VA_Dinger. There is no other term for it. Now, if you started your own da-da-damn drug company and competed...........then hell, I'd say you were practicing free enterprise and capitalism.

Dave S



WTF is this babbling post? Do you have a point?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:55:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper? Because they pay 2-3x the taxes, and have some of the worst healthcare available

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?Well, what did they do before those medicines were invented? They can keep doing that, if they cannot pay the price of advancement

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?Better than GOVERNMENT control of our ECONOMY

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Pinko commie morons...

Next plane to North Korea... Pack it up & move out...

Hope you enjoy the 'paradize' of governmetn control of everything, no evil corporations to ruin your day...

Say hi to Kim Jong Il for me...




Nice try Moron, but your the RED CHINA supporter. Who is it that wants to move all of America's manufacturing to China? That would be you! I'm damn proud of American workers and there products. America is not #1 by accident.



America is #1, however certain socialist entities (UNIONS) have driven up the cost of manufacturing above the level it is worth...

We 'in-source' jobs from Europe for the same reason... Their socialisim is far stronger...

Red China is (sadly) becoming more capitalist than we are... And they are reaping the natural economic benefits... If we want to compete, we have to de-regulate...

Of course, you can keep supporting your socialist union friends, who's pig-headed socialist stupidity keeps driving up the cost of living & the cost of American products... They are reaping what htey have sown, I feel NO compassion for them...
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:05:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper? Because they pay 2-3x the taxes, and have some of the worst healthcare available

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?Well, what did they do before those medicines were invented? They can keep doing that, if they cannot pay the price of advancement

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?Better than GOVERNMENT control of our ECONOMY

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Pinko commie morons...

Next plane to North Korea... Pack it up & move out...

Hope you enjoy the 'paradize' of governmetn control of everything, no evil corporations to ruin your day...

Say hi to Kim Jong Il for me...




Nice try Moron, but your the RED CHINA supporter. Who is it that wants to move all of America's manufacturing to China? That would be you! I'm damn proud of American workers and there products. America is not #1 by accident.



America is #1, however certain socialist entities (UNIONS) have driven up the cost of manufacturing above the level it is worth...

We 'in-source' jobs from Europe for the same reason... Their socialisim is far stronger...

Red China is (sadly) becoming more capitalist than we are... And they are reaping the natural economic benefits... If we want to compete, we have to de-regulate...

Of course, you can keep supporting your socialist union friends, who's pig-headed socialist stupidity keeps driving up the cost of living & the cost of American products... They are reaping what htey have sown, I feel NO compassion for them...



I get the feeling you know absolutely nothing about the subject at hand. Do you know what percentage of the total U.S. labor force is Union? Do you realize its less than 15%? HOW IN GODS EARTH CAN YOU BLAME EVERY SINGLE ECONOMIC PROBLEM ON ORGANIZED LABOR WHEN IN TOTAL IT AMMOUNTS TO LESS THAN 1/4 OF THE WORK FORCE? Far more of the companies outsourcing overseas are non-union! My God, you a truely a moron.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:22:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:


My uncle (a Canadian) has severe back problems... Due to the decrepit state of your health care system, he comes to the USA for treatment. He is not 'rich', but he would rather spend what money he has for good, for-profit American healthcare, than subject himself to your government's system...



Like I said earlier this is a no winner. What I have mentioned is first hand as well. I'm in my 40's and know and have known alot of people and can tell you no horror stories other than from those from my relatives in the U.S., (And 70% of them live in Wisconsin, by the way) who say they wish they didn't have to pay huge medical bills ON TOP of their high medicare insurance costs.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:35:29 PM EST
Dave_A, Cat Got Your Tongue?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:36:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper? Because they pay 2-3x the taxes, and have some of the worst healthcare available

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?Well, what did they do before those medicines were invented? They can keep doing that, if they cannot pay the price of advancement

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?Better than GOVERNMENT control of our ECONOMY

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Pinko commie morons...

Next plane to North Korea... Pack it up & move out...

Hope you enjoy the 'paradize' of governmetn control of everything, no evil corporations to ruin your day...

Say hi to Kim Jong Il for me...




Nice try Moron, but your the RED CHINA supporter. Who is it that wants to move all of America's manufacturing to China? That would be you! I'm damn proud of American workers and there products. America is not #1 by accident.



America is #1, however certain socialist entities (UNIONS) have driven up the cost of manufacturing above the level it is worth...

We 'in-source' jobs from Europe for the same reason... Their socialisim is far stronger...

Red China is (sadly) becoming more capitalist than we are... And they are reaping the natural economic benefits... If we want to compete, we have to de-regulate...

Of course, you can keep supporting your socialist union friends, who's pig-headed socialist stupidity keeps driving up the cost of living & the cost of American products... They are reaping what htey have sown, I feel NO compassion for them...



I get the feeling you know absolutely nothing about the subject at hand. Do you know what percentage of the total U.S. labor force is Union? Do you realize its less than 15%? HOW IN GODS EARTH CAN YOU BLAME EVERY SINGLE ECONOMIC PROBLEM ON ORGANIZED LABOR WHEN IN TOTAL IT AMMOUNTS TO LESS THAN 1/4 OF THE WORK FORCE? Far more of the companies outsourcing overseas are non-union! My God, you a truely a moron.



www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams091703.asp
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:37:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Hexagonal:
So, let me get this straight, in order to finance big private industry US drug companies, our people get screwed for price and pay sometimes 10x as much?

While folks in Canada, China, and other commie countries get the same drugs much cheaper? Because they pay 2-3x the taxes, and have some of the worst healthcare available

The "ability to pay" costs some elderly Americans their lives, if they cannot afford the medicines they need to live, while the rest of the world gets a cheap version of the same drug?Well, what did they do before those medicines were invented? They can keep doing that, if they cannot pay the price of advancement

What is wrong with this picture?
Can we say "corporate control of our country"?Better than GOVERNMENT control of our ECONOMY

Fuck the corporations.
They are not who we elected, regardless of how much money they pay the candidates to get control.




+1
Oustanding!



Pinko commie morons...

Next plane to North Korea... Pack it up & move out...

Hope you enjoy the 'paradize' of governmetn control of everything, no evil corporations to ruin your day...

Say hi to Kim Jong Il for me...




Nice try Moron, but your the RED CHINA supporter. Who is it that wants to move all of America's manufacturing to China? That would be you! I'm damn proud of American workers and there products. America is not #1 by accident.



America is #1, however certain socialist entities (UNIONS) have driven up the cost of manufacturing above the level it is worth...

We 'in-source' jobs from Europe for the same reason... Their socialisim is far stronger...

Red China is (sadly) becoming more capitalist than we are... And they are reaping the natural economic benefits... If we want to compete, we have to de-regulate...

Of course, you can keep supporting your socialist union friends, who's pig-headed socialist stupidity keeps driving up the cost of living & the cost of American products... They are reaping what htey have sown, I feel NO compassion for them...



I get the feeling you know absolutely nothing about the subject at hand. Do you know what percentage of the total U.S. labor force is Union? Do you realize its less than 15%? HOW IN GODS EARTH CAN YOU BLAME EVERY SINGLE ECONOMIC PROBLEM ON ORGANIZED LABOR WHEN IN TOTAL IT AMMOUNTS TO LESS THAN 1/4 OF THE WORK FORCE? Far more of the companies outsourcing overseas are non-union! My God, you a truely a moron.



Your stats are misleading, VA...

How much of MANUFACTURING is Union? A whole hell of alot more than 15%... Somerwhere between 33-50% would be more credible...

Look at the industried 'hardest hit' by outsourcing: there is a common trend

1) The jobs beiong outsourced are menial for their field. Yes, that includes rote 'production' computer programming and 'call center' tech support - both are the 'idiot work' of the IT world. When you do a job that any idiot can do, expect a cheaper foreign idiot to replace you, it's simple economics!

2) With the exception of the tech industry (which is too new to have union problems), the jobs that are leaving (PREDOMINANTLY manufacturing) are in industries that have a heavy presence by organizad labor.

3) Unions are responsible for ABSURD cost-of-labor inflation, all you have to do is look at the jobs done, the wages paid, and the various contract terms... If I were a business owner faced with that, I'd fire 'em all & go overseas in a second...

4) Unions are not 100% of the problem - more like 30-40%. The other 60-70% is government regulation - minimum wage, corporate taxation, OSHA, CPSC, and so on... Remember: Everything flows downhill, including jobs. We get jobs from Europe (more regulation), and send jobs to the 3rd world (LESS regulation)... Again, simple economics....
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:38:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Dave_A, Cat Got Your Tongue?



No, watching Jay Leno & busy elsewhere... Look up...
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:39:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 7:40:27 PM EST by leelaw]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

I get the feeling you know absolutely nothing about the subject at hand. Do you know what percentage of the total U.S. labor force is Union? Do you realize its less than 15%? HOW IN GODS EARTH CAN YOU BLAME EVERY SINGLE ECONOMIC PROBLEM ON ORGANIZED LABOR WHEN IN TOTAL IT AMMOUNTS TO LESS THAN 1/4 OF THE WORK FORCE? Far more of the companies outsourcing overseas are non-union! My God, you a truely a moron.



I get the feeling you know absoloutly nothing about the subject at hand. Do you know what percentage of the total U.S. labor force lost their jobs due to outsourcing? Do you realize it is less than 1% of total jobs lost? HOW IN GODS EARTH CAN YOU BLAME EVERY SINGLE ECONOMIC PROBLEM ON OUTSOURCING WHEN IN TOTAL IT AMMOUNTS TO LESS THAN 1/100 OF THE JOB LOSSES? Far more of the companies are outsourcing TO American than we are outsourcing! My God, you a truely a moron.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:43:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By 76R:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:


My uncle (a Canadian) has severe back problems... Due to the decrepit state of your health care system, he comes to the USA for treatment. He is not 'rich', but he would rather spend what money he has for good, for-profit American healthcare, than subject himself to your government's system...



Like I said earlier this is a no winner. What I have mentioned is first hand as well. I'm in my 40's and know and have known alot of people and can tell you no horror stories other than from those from my relatives in the U.S., (And 70% of them live in Wisconsin, by the way) who say they wish they didn't have to pay huge medical bills ON TOP of their high medicare insurance costs.



Well, if they had to pay your stunning array of taxes (income tax, GST tax, sales tax, etc...) they might complain about that...

Further, our health care cost problem is directly related to the existance of group health plans. Because there is no rate increase as non-catestrophic consumption increases, the costs of over-use are borne by all, not by the one who is using too much care... So if a few folks run to the doc every time they have a common cold, instead of getting a pack of Sudafed & taking a nap, they raise the price for everyone...

The best way to control healthcare is to stop the insanity of 3rd-party-payer (weather that 3rd party is an insurance company or the government), and move to a system where individuals purchase their own separate plans, and pay a variable premium based on how much non-critical care they use (think car insurance... Oh wait, that's socialized up in Canada too...)....
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:08:08 PM EST
Like most countries with socialized medicine, Canada has an enormous trade surplus with the United States they can tap into for money.

The United Stated is an importing country. The money we would need to socialize our medicine goes to foreign countries to pay for THEIR socialized medicine.

Even with the US picking up the tab for all the socialist "Utopias" around the world, all of whom depend on the US for medical research WITHOUT contributing to the cost of that research, many of these countries are going bankrupt paying for national healthcare, inspite of taxing their population blind.

In the endgame, if the US socializes medicine, they will have to raise taxes and find a way to limit foreign access to American markets.

The solution is to buy American. Write your congressional representatives and demand they repeal the 1934 NFA, 1986 Machinegun ban, AND develop domestically produced alternative fuels.

<­img src=/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif border=0 align=middle>
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 3:26:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 5:13:57 PM EST by rn45]

Originally Posted By DaveS:

Originally Posted By rn45:
Okay, I have few questions. How can we stop the flow of jobs into Mexico and China? We are losing a lot of manufacturing ability and I think part of it is because of NAFTA. That and company owners are finding it convenient to blame high costs, when it's just an excuse to increase their profits at the cost of jobs here in the states.
It's not funny that so many do not understand free interprise and capitalism. I'm not picking on you rn45......I've was laid of at the end of April. BUT!!!!!!!!!! It is not YOUR job. It's the companies' job. If it was your job you could not be laid off or fired from it and you would not have had a supervisor. IT NEVER WAS YOUR GODDAMN JOB AND IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE POTUS TO TRY AND KEEP IT IN THE UNITED STATES. A lot of you silly bitches need to at least remember your civic classes or read Walter Williams. ie: Should the POTUS banned freezer/refidgeraters to save the jobs of the delivery guys that brought ice to your folks ice boxes? Quit yelling about your pussy hurting and that you would like fascist control of economics when it's {not} your job that is at stake. da-da-damn.

Secondly, with all the corruption in the U.N. and its total lack of effectiveness, why are we not getting out? It's obviously outlived its usefulness.

Last, why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada? Is it because of government subsidies? Are they the same drugs and the same brands that we get here in the states, or are they knockoffs like something from Joe and Eddie's Medicine Factory? They really aren't cheaper up there. Now, you actually want cheaper {most likely won't kill you or trash your liver} drups? Reign in the FDA and go with Tort reform.

I mean...what's the deal?



Thus endeth the lesson.....for today. Rest of you, go to India or China.

Dave S




Sooo...on our way to India or China we are to understand that the natural order of things is to keep moving jobs out of the country in order to increase net profits until just a few people have a lot of money and the rest of us are all out of work. I wonder who will buy all those products. Oh yeah, the people in India and China. They'll only be able to pay the prices that fit their income so net profits here will drop.

Don't get me wrong. I do not support useless overpaid labor doing mind numbing jobs for premium wages. I realize that those kind of jobs inflate costs. However, this country needs jobs in order to maintain our economy. We need to find a solution soon. The ability to manufacture is vital to our national security. There are a lot of other jobs moving off shore as well. If a company can save a lot of money by having an accounting firm in India do its books, then CPAs here lose work. That's all fine and dandy unless you're a person that's spent a lot of money getting through college to be a CPA. We cannot survive as a soley service based economy.

High tech jobs, often thought to be secure, can move out as well. To over simplify, suppose that all farm machinery is no longer manufactured here. Say we have a grain contract with China. Their government, being much more focused than ours and much more in control, says that our grain prices are too high and they're going to double the price of farm machinery until we reduce it. The farmer knows he can't afford a cost increase, so he is forced to accept less and less for his grain. By having a manufacturing monopoly, and that is what they are working for, they can dictate our prices and control our standard of living.

The Chinese recently bought a picture tube factory lock, stock and barrel. Someone here posted that it was okay since that technology was outdated anyway. Here's a newsflash. The Chinese are certainly capable of making plasma screen TVs too. The standard of living in some countries where manufacturing jobs are going is substantially below ours. We have to decide very soon if we are going to lower our standards or find a new way to support our way of life. A lean and mean economy may be good for investors, but without people working to buy the goods and services, it won't stay there long. I guess my point is that everything we make and do can be made and done cheaper in another country where the standard of living is lower. Everything except police, doctors, etc. Who is going to pay for police and medical care when no one has a job. I never like Ross Perot, but he was right about NAFTA.

By the way, just my opinion, but I think we should not only get out of the U.N. but move it out of our country. Whether we can veto anything means little when their decisions have no clout and affect us only as much as we wish.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:05:39 PM EST
Canada's healthcare system is paid for by Federal taxes but it administered by the provinces.

The original idea was that the system would pay for itself because it was an endowment - they'd only spend a certain portion of the interest and never touch the principal.

What happened is that each community demanded their own hosptial because it would "create jobs." The government gave in for political reasons.

In very short order, the principal was tapped into just to cover basic costs.....leading to a funding shortfall.

However, this was to be expected. Politicians will play politics, and as long as the SHTF on someone else's watch, they don't care.

Socialism works.... yeah right
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:30:06 PM EST
BTW, unions certainly don't help, but we face another problem.

Company A is a union shop. They pay $12/hr for bolt-tighteners.
Company B is a non-union shop. They pay minimum wage, approx. $6/hr
Company C outsources to kids chained to workbenches abroad. They pay $.04 a day.


Even after shipping, tariffs, and getting rid of the bad PR, company C will kick the ass out of the two domestic producers, union and non-union alike.

_____________________________________________

The interesting thing is that when I was starting my own company last year, I met a man who runs a car and radiator repair place. They mainly to contract work. He hires union shop.

He said it is CHEAPER to hire the union because he only negotiates with one guy, instead of having individual contracts. The union even handles all his paperwork related to worker's comp, etc. and also takes care of training and hiring new people if someone leaves.

But, why doesn't the union then just make insane demands?

The reason is that in VA, there is a right-to-work law, meaning that you don't hve to be part of a union, and employers can choose to accept unions or not.

The owner of the company in question found it cheaper to go with non-union workers. If they fuck him over, he can always go back to non-union workers. Hence it is a symbiotic relationship.

The problem arises when the company has nothing to threaten the union with and the union grows so powerful that they can blackmail the company.
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