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Posted: 8/16/2006 7:17:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:19:00 AM EDT
Woo hoo. Shitstorm coming.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:19:01 AM EDT
Someone touch a nerve?
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:19:55 AM EDT
I could be wrong but i think its called sharia law?

But sharia law is very very radical I would say the vast majority of muslims are not that extreme.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:21:55 AM EDT
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:23:27 AM EDT
Christ, people! Can't we just give it a rest?

Now we have member sending other members e-mails questioning their marriages?
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:26:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2006 7:29:23 AM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:35:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
But sharia law is very very radical I would say the vast majority of muslims are not that extreme.


Just enough to ruin it for the rest of humanity.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:39:06 AM EDT
what the fuck...

whoever sent that e-mail is just sad
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:41:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:44:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I got this email from someone here. I'm not going to say from who, however I will use it to illustrate a point.



"If she is a devout muslem, and you are not, then uder shirea law, she is not your wife, and yes, she wants you either dead or defeated and enslaved! Under shirea law, a muslem woman is forbidden to marry a non-muslem. If a non-muslem woman converts to islam, and her husband does not, the marriage is considered annulled! "

Some of you don't know shit and need to shut the fuck up!


My wife and I had a Christian wedding in the US. (I am Catholic) She was raised muslim and her family is. She is kind of in between. She likes Christianity but still has some of the islamic beliefs. i.e. Ramadan and alcohol. Morocco recognizes our marriage. Her mother did not get child support after a divorce for her because she is married here. When we go there we are considered married. She is listed as married by her consulate here. Her family loves me and does NOT want me dead.

Islamic countries are NOT the same nor are all the people. Islam is taught DIFFERENTLY depending on where you are. You can quote the Quran all you want, but the REALITY is not all islamic countries are evil. There is some fucked up shit in the Bible also. Get over it. Start hating communists again or something.

I want the Islamic radicals dead as much as anyone. I want profiling. AND GUESS WHAT? So does my wife. In fact she doesn't care if we have to show up earlier at the airport because she might get questioned a little harder. She understands.



Three Four points to ponder...

1. You're already enslaved, she's your wife!

2. She's a woman, she already wants you dead at least a couple days each month!

3. It's Sharia Law. Whoever IM'd you should learn how to spell.

4. See red above. Did I miss a memo? Cause I never stopped...



Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:47:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2006 7:47:45 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


Yea... but they would not kill you... which is the penalty for a woman in a unrecognized marriage under sharia.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:48:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


True, but I don't see Observant Jews or Catholics on TV cutting people's heads off...
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:49:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2006 7:50:31 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I got this email from someone here. I'm not going to say from who, however I will use it to illustrate a point.



"If she is a devout muslem, and you are not, then uder shirea law, she is not your wife, and yes, she wants you either dead or defeated and enslaved! Under shirea law, a muslem woman is forbidden to marry a non-muslem. If a non-muslem woman converts to islam, and her husband does not, the marriage is considered annulled! "

Some of you don't know shit and need to shut the fuck up!


My wife and I had a Christian wedding in the US. (I am Catholic) She was raised muslim and her family is. She is kind of in between.
.



Reading is fundamental
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:50:48 AM EDT
I've been to a few predominately muslim countries (>80%) and I have never felt anything but welcome there. Poverty was more of a fear-factor than anything because most of the people were broke as shit and I was a "rich" white guy 12000 miles from home.

A lot of muslims don't live their faith word for word any more than christians/jews/catholics/<insert religion here>. It just seems that way because, as it always has been in the political world, the assholes have the loudest voice.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:53:21 AM EDT
That IM should constitute harrassment and be subject to a good old fashioned banning, or ass kicking. Whichever comes first.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:53:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


True, but I don't see Observant Jews or Catholics on TV cutting people's heads off...


There you go...

The moral equivalency crowd cannot get their heads around that… be prepared next for speeches about Christians burning people and the evils of the Crusades… like radical Islamist they also don’t know it is 2006 and not 1066.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:54:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


True, but I don't see Observant Jews or Catholics on TV cutting people's heads off...


I'm curious, are there any countries in the Western world ruled by religous authorities ala Iran?

If not, it would seem to be hard to make any kind of comparison.

Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:55:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I got this email from someone here. I'm not going to say from who, however I will use it to illustrate a point.


It wasn't from me either

However the point I always take from threads involving religion & politics is that its almost pointless to get drawn into these discussions because your beliefs are these and my beliefs are those and your not going to change mine and I'm not going to change yours so I respect yours and only ask you respect mine, same with politics although they can be a whole hell of a lot more fun especially when them involve a liberal Dem... oh yeah I forgot to include unions, no sense going there either unless I want hit the prozac dispenser
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:55:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By topknot:
That IM should constitute harrassment and be subject to a good old fashioned banning, or ass kicking. Whichever comes first.


Bear Pit Party?



Link Posted: 8/16/2006 7:57:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I got this email from someone here. I'm not going to say from who, however I will use it to illustrate a point.



"If she is a devout muslem, and you are not, then uder shirea law, she is not your wife, and yes, she wants you either dead or defeated and enslaved! Under shirea law, a muslem woman is forbidden to marry a non-muslem. If a non-muslem woman converts to islam, and her husband does not, the marriage is considered annulled! "

Some of you don't know shit and need to shut the fuck up!


My wife and I had a Christian wedding in the US. (I am Catholic) She was raised muslim and her family is. She is kind of in between. She likes Christianity but still has some of the islamic beliefs. i.e. Ramadan and alcohol. Morocco recognizes our marriage. Her mother did not get child support after a divorce for her because she is married here. When we go there we are considered married. She is listed as married by her consulate here. Her family loves me and does NOT want me dead.

Islamic countries are NOT the same nor are all the people. Islam is taught DIFFERENTLY depending on where you are. You can quote the Quran all you want, but the REALITY is not all islamic countries are evil. There is some fucked up shit in the Bible also. Get over it. Start hating communists again or something.

I want the Islamic radicals dead as much as anyone. I want profiling. AND GUESS WHAT? So does my wife. In fact she doesn't care if we have to show up earlier at the airport because she might get questioned a little harder. She understands.


Look, I've been known on this board to critise Islam and Islamic Culture a LOT, but i have to be the first to apologise for this person (Asshole). Talking about someones wife like that is totally unacceptable. My feelings are strong cause my own family history and by pure chance a i have friends who are Middle eastern (jews and Christians) who had to flee there from persecution. BUT once when talking with One of them when we were bashing Terrorists he said "i love Muslims but i hate Islam" Kinda like the Lover the sinner, hate the sin kind of mentality. I still feel that the Religion itself is bad and creates some bad things in its culture but i also feel that the people who suffer the most under Islam are Muslims themselves, and as we have seen lately, You cant even just join another religion without risking death or total social isolation from your family which is so important in the ME. but again i say whoever said that about you wife is a total jerkoff and this is unacceptable.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 8:03:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


True, but I don't see Observant Jews or Catholics on TV cutting people's heads off...


I'm curious, are there any countries in the Western world ruled by religous authorities ala Iran?

If not, it would seem to be hard to make any kind of comparison.



Ask any liberal, they'll tell you the US is run by religious fundamentalists...

But directly to your point, I don't see it. I wouldn't think it necessary to distinguish religious vs. secular governments when discussing something like beheadings...
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 8:05:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2006 8:06:58 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


True, but I don't see Observant Jews or Catholics on TV cutting people's heads off...


I'm curious, are there any countries in the Western world ruled by religous authorities ala Iran?

If not, it would seem to be hard to make any kind of comparison.



Just curious, ever heard of honor killing. They occur in virtually all Muslim dominated countries and there is little or no penalty from the "secular" goverments.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 8:45:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
But directly to your point, I don't see it. I wouldn't think it necessary to distinguish religious vs. secular governments when discussing something like beheadings...


It makes all the difference. If we ran the country on strict Old Testament law we'd be stoning and killing lots of people. We'd also still have slaves.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 9:01:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Ask any liberal, they'll tell you the US is run by religious fundamentalists...
it is, but they got there by the process of election, they weren't appointed by a group of Churchmen. They also have to conduct themselves according to constitutional principles. I think a limited theocracy, much like a limited monarchy, would work just as well as our form of limited democracy. The problem is I don't know of any muslim theocracies with limits on their power

But directly to your point, I don't see it. I wouldn't think it necessary to distinguish religious vs. secular governments when discussing something like beheadings...


Of course it would, IF your trying to imply the root of the problem is Islam.

Secular governments have used beheadings (Revolutionary France for instance), so its not purely a secular vs religous argument.

I think most of the abuses of Islamic governments are due to the fact that they ARE governments. We don't have a Baptist government of the US or an Anglican government of the UK. Western society saw the problems with religions acting with state powers several hundred years ago. Since then we've set up our political systems to prevent it from happening.

I can't think of an example of a theocracy with full political power that hasn't wound up persecuting religous minorities.

Link Posted: 8/16/2006 9:11:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 9:11:22 AM EDT
Why have governments been dragged into this discussion in the first place, secular or not?

It wasn't the religious government of Iraq that kidnapped people and beheaded them, it was a hateful ideology...

That's where my comparisons were going.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 9:24:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why have governments been dragged into this discussion in the first place, secular or not?

It wasn't the religious government of Iraq that kidnapped people and beheaded them, it was a hateful ideology...

That's where my comparisons were going.


Can you blame what deranged individuals do on the entire religion? Andrea Yates isn't painting a very good picture of Christians with her 'God told me to drown my children' bit.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 9:28:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
Just curious, ever heard of honor killing. They occur in virtually all Muslim dominated countries and there is little or no penalty from the "secular" goverments.


They still occur in many Latin American countries too. Its only the last 50 years that most countries have outlawed the practice.

some western countries still have a "heat of passion" law to excuse the killing of spouses caught in the act of adultery. Those laws are a remembrance of our own past with honor killings.

Honor kilings have nothing to do with religion (in fact, the Koran forbids them and considers them a type of crime, but leaves the punishment up to the judge who can base it on cultural standards), they are a cultural problem. Arabic Christians have committed honor killings, so have central and south-american Christians.

Link Posted: 8/16/2006 9:47:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why have governments been dragged into this discussion in the first place, secular or not?

It wasn't the religious government of Iraq that kidnapped people and beheaded them, it was a hateful ideology...

That's where my comparisons were going.


Can you blame what deranged individuals do on the entire religion? Andrea Yates isn't painting a very good picture of Christians with her 'God told me to drown my children' bit.


C'mon that is a nutbar acting like a nutbar.

Zarqawi was a major leader in a worldwide religion.

Sometimes you guys reach too far in trying to paint all religions in a bad light.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 9:52:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why have governments been dragged into this discussion in the first place, secular or not?

It wasn't the religious government of Iraq that kidnapped people and beheaded them, it was a hateful ideology...

That's where my comparisons were going.


Can you blame what deranged individuals do on the entire religion? Andrea Yates isn't painting a very good picture of Christians with her 'God told me to drown my children' bit.


C'mon that is a nutbar acting like a nutbar.

Zarqawi was a major leader in a worldwide religion.

Sometimes you guys reach too far in trying to paint all religions in a bad light.


I don't want to paint all religions in a bad light, I don't have a problem with religion as long as it is non-intrusive. Islam itself is followed by over a billion people worldwide, not all of them are looking to blow up our buildings. Our enemies are radical groups bent on destruction, not an entire religion.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 10:44:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2006 3:04:56 PM EDT by AlvinYorkII]

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why have governments been dragged into this discussion in the first place, secular or not?

It wasn't the religious government of Iraq that kidnapped people and beheaded them, it was a hateful ideology...

That's where my comparisons were going.


Can you blame what deranged individuals do on the entire religion? Andrea Yates isn't painting a very good picture of Christians with her 'God told me to drown my children' bit.


C'mon that is a nutbar acting like a nutbar.

Zarqawi was a major leader in a worldwide religion.

Sometimes you guys reach too far in trying to paint all religions in a bad light.


I don't want to paint all religions in a bad light, I don't have a problem with religion as long as it is non-intrusive. Islam itself is followed by over a billion people worldwide, not all of them are looking to blow up our buildings. Our enemies are radical groups bent on destruction, not an entire religion.




But if as you say there are a majority of the billion who aren't looking to blow up buildings where is the outrage towards those who don't follow thier belief in peace? I look at the media and don't see it. I look at printed media and don't see it. What I do see is Muslims objecting to being profiled, Muslims objecting to being the focus of attention. I have not seen any tidal wave of objection by the home grown Muslims about terriorism. This is just sad. Why don't they speak out against it where do thier loyaltys lay. Some may even say it is dangerous because these Muslims are living amongst us. During WWII my grandfather couldn't work on government construction jobs because of his German birth. Even though he still had relatives living in Liepzig he was adamantly against Germany. (His eldest son my fought in the Pacific with the army my dad was too young at the time.) Why aren't the home grown muslims doing something like this today? Why cant we profile with out worrying about hurting peoples feelings? During WWII Christians fought Christians and nobody thought any different about it those who fought on the side of the allies knew they were fighting on the right side. All of the 9/11 terrorists professed to be devote Muslims and I would suggest that they were following Sharia Law as they saw it. But no one in the Muslim community wants to speak out against another Muslim. If the religion has been hyjacked why no complaints about it? If as its been said Islam is a religion of peace why isn't it happening? Where is the Muslims for peace movement? We hear about Immans in New York and London preaching about Allied Occupation of Irag and Afghanistan instead, never against the destruction of the WTC, attempt on the Pentagon, the bombing in Madrid, Mombai or the bombings in Baghdad. Where is Muslims for the ending of beheadings movement? We see Muslims rioting over cartoons instead.When are the Mullahs going to come out for OBL to turn himself in and lay down his arms. Why is it that we still have the Arab(Muslim) street celebrating whenever a western innocent is murdered in a terroist attack? In my book silence shows support. You don't have to actually need to fly an airplane into a building to be part of the problem just give your tacit approval through your silence. When the entire religious family is silent they all are a part of the problem aren't they? Where are the righteous Muslims?
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 4:44:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AlvinYorkII:
But if as you say there are a majority of the billion who aren't looking to blow up buildings where is the outrage towards those who don't follow thier belief in peace? I look at the media and don't see it. I look at printed media and don't see it. What I do see is Muslims objecting to being profiled, Muslims objecting to being the focus of attention. I have not seen any tidal wave of objection by the home grown Muslims about terriorism. This is just sad. Why don't they speak out against it where do thier loyaltys lay. Some may even say it is dangerous because these Muslims are living amongst us. During WWII my grandfather couldn't work on government construction jobs because of his German birth. Even though he still had relatives living in Liepzig he was adamantly against Germany. (His eldest son my fought in the Pacific with the army my dad was too young at the time.) Why aren't the home grown muslims doing something like this today? Why cant we profile with out worrying about hurting peoples feelings? During WWII Christians fought Christians and nobody thought any different about it those who fought on the side of the allies knew they were fighting on the right side. All of the 9/11 terrorists professed to be devote Muslims and I would suggest that they were following Sharia Law as they saw it. But no one in the Muslim community wants to speak out against another Muslim. If the religion has been hyjacked why no complaints about it? If as its been said Islam is a religion of peace why isn't it happening? Where is the Muslims for peace movement? We hear about Immans in New York and London preaching about Allied Occupation of Irag and Afghanistan instead, never against the destruction of the WTC, attempt on the Pentagon, the bombing in Madrid, Mombai or the bombings in Baghdad. Where is Muslims for the ending of beheadings movement? We see Muslims rioting over cartoons instead.When are the Mullahs going to come out for OBL to turn himself in and lay down his arms. Why is it that we still have the Arab(Muslim) street celebrating whenever a western innocent is murdered in a terroist attack? In my book silence shows support. You don't have to actually need to fly an airplane into a building to be part of the problem just give your tacit approval through your silence. When the entire religious family is silent they all are a part of the problem aren't they? Where are the righteous Muslims?


there have been links posted before by myself and others to examples of Muslims speaking out against the violence.

The universal response on arfcom is "its a pr move" or "they are lying through their teeth"

Its not hard to find muslims who are publicly against terrorism, they are just a tiny minority. I'm sure you and I might have different opinions on why.

I think your stance is strange. I see Christians commit offenses everyday. I don't feel its necessary for Christian organizations everywhere to say they don't approve. I give everyone a BOD when it comes to such matters. Until you've proven by your actions that you support things like rape, torture, and murder, I will assume you are a good person. I assume you don't approve of flying planes into buildings, I assume you don't approve of cutting the arms off a little boy for stealing some bread, I assume you don't approve of a brother strangling his sister for dating someone of a different religion.

I don't expect anything from a Muslim I don't expect from a Christian or a Buddhist.

The answer isn't to target all Muslims, the answer is to target those Muslims who have demonstrated they support terrorist actions.

I'm not against a more old-school approach of killing them in job lots until we break their will, but I don't think WE have the political will to carry through on such an objective. All it would do is play into their hands in the press.

If we aren't willing to go all the way with it (as we did in WWII) then we shouldn't go down that road. We'll get the worst of both worlds. We'll kill enough to breed more hatred for us and not enough to make them fear us.

I think our current method of interfering when we have to but



Link Posted: 8/16/2006 4:52:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2006 4:52:33 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why have governments been dragged into this discussion in the first place, secular or not?

It wasn't the religious government of Iraq that kidnapped people and beheaded them, it was a hateful ideology...

That's where my comparisons were going.


Can you blame what deranged individuals do on the entire religion? Andrea Yates isn't painting a very good picture of Christians with her 'God told me to drown my children' bit.


C'mon that is a nutbar acting like a nutbar.

Zarqawi was a major leader in a worldwide religion.

Sometimes you guys reach too far in trying to paint all religions in a bad light.


Zarqawi was a leader, but not in the religion. He was a terrorist leader, not a religous leader.

Macman I know you are smart enough to know the difference, so why would you post bullshit like that?

Khomeini was a religious leader AND a political leader. Which is what I see as the true problem with Islam. To them it is acceptable for a religion to run the government.

We outgrew that after centuries of bloodshed. They have yet to do so.

Link Posted: 8/16/2006 5:00:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2006 5:04:12 PM EDT by AlvinYorkII]
Dino you didn't quite finish your train of thought. Do you need to edit?
Oh by the way I'm sure that we'd have heard of The Red Cresent bringing aide to the WTC, Madrid, Kolmar Barracks, and the Cole if it had happened. This is a war your either with us or your in the way. I see alot of home grown Muslims who don't want to commit themselves to thier own country.


Alvin
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 5:17:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I got this email from someone here. I'm not going to say from who, however I will use it to illustrate a point.



"If she is a devout muslem, and you are not, then uder shirea law, she is not your wife, and yes, she wants you either dead or defeated and enslaved! Under shirea law, a muslem woman is forbidden to marry a non-muslem. If a non-muslem woman converts to islam, and her husband does not, the marriage is considered annulled! "

Some of you don't know shit and need to shut the fuck up!


My wife and I had a Christian wedding in the US. (I am Catholic) She was raised muslim and her family is. She is kind of in between. She likes Christianity but still has some of the islamic beliefs. i.e. Ramadan and alcohol. Morocco recognizes our marriage. Her mother did not get child support after a divorce for her because she is married here. When we go there we are considered married. She is listed as married by her consulate here. Her family loves me and does NOT want me dead.

Islamic countries are NOT the same nor are all the people. Islam is taught DIFFERENTLY depending on where you are. You can quote the Quran all you want, but the REALITY is not all islamic countries are evil. There is some fucked up shit in the Bible also. Get over it. Start hating communists again or something.

I want the Islamic radicals dead as much as anyone. I want profiling. AND GUESS WHAT? So does my wife. In fact she doesn't care if we have to show up earlier at the airport because she might get questioned a little harder. She understands.


Look, I've been known on this board to critise Islam and Islamic Culture a LOT, but i have to be the first to apologise for this person (Asshole). Talking about someones wife like that is totally unacceptable. My feelings are strong cause my own family history and by pure chance a i have friends who are Middle eastern (jews and Christians) who had to flee there from persecution. BUT once when talking with One of them when we were bashing Terrorists he said "i love Muslims but i hate Islam" Kinda like the Lover the sinner, hate the sin kind of mentality. I still feel that the Religion itself is bad and creates some bad things in its culture but i also feel that the people who suffer the most under Islam are Muslims themselves, and as we have seen lately, You cant even just join another religion without risking death or total social isolation from your family which is so important in the ME. but again i say whoever said that about you wife is a total jerkoff and this is unacceptable.


Wow, that was big of you considering you're a racist and a biggot. I'm impressed.
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 8:45:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 8:47:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 8:49:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2006 8:51:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 4:30:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why have governments been dragged into this discussion in the first place, secular or not?

It wasn't the religious government of Iraq that kidnapped people and beheaded them, it was a hateful ideology...

That's where my comparisons were going.


Can you blame what deranged individuals do on the entire religion? Andrea Yates isn't painting a very good picture of Christians with her 'God told me to drown my children' bit.


C'mon that is a nutbar acting like a nutbar.

Zarqawi was a major leader in a worldwide religion.

Sometimes you guys reach too far in trying to paint all religions in a bad light.


Zarqawi was a leader, but not in the religion. He was a terrorist leader, not a religous leader.

Macman I know you are smart enough to know the difference, so why would you post bullshit like that?

Khomeini was a religious leader AND a political leader. Which is what I see as the true problem with Islam. To them it is acceptable for a religion to run the government.

We outgrew that after centuries of bloodshed. They have yet to do so.



Then you'll at least have to grant that Zarqawi was a religious leader in a terrorist movement... and furthermore that he had tacit approval from a good percentage of legitimate leaders of the religion... I do not see it as BS.

There are too many people doing terroristic acts in the name of Islam to simply say "they're the minority" and then morally equate it to bad things Christians have done... Please.

I agree with your Khomeini example.
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 4:32:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


True, but I don't see Observant Jews or Catholics on TV cutting people's heads off...


There you go...

The moral equivalency crowd cannot get their heads around that… be prepared next for speeches about Christians burning people and the evils of the Crusades… like radical Islamist they also don’t know it is 2006 and not 1066.


We have also had 700 more years to mature. However I understand the differences between Jesus and Mohammed.

I guess what it comes down to is this. Would Jesus want us to kill them all,,, or help them mature.

HMMMMM???????


There is nowhere in the Bible that Jesus or anyone else has said "if you cannot convert them by mouth, convert them by the sword" or anything like that... Don't even try to say there is!
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 4:34:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By macman37:
From my understanding of it, observant Muslims would not approve of your marriage, and they would want you to convert. I'm not sure about the dead, defeated or enslaved part.

That said, I would like to ensure everyone knows I am not the one who emailed the above


So would OBSERVENT Jews or OBSERVENT Catholics...


True, but I don't see Observant Jews or Catholics on TV cutting people's heads off...


Nor do you see non radical muslims doing it.

However several years ago you did see Christians doing some really nasty things.


Several, as in "Several HUNDRED" years ago?

And there are a LOT more radical Muslims around than there are "radical" Christians...

Man you guys will do anything to make all religions look as bad as radical Islam looks, won't you?
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 4:48:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hammer2Fall:


Three Four points to ponder...

1. You're already enslaved, she's your wife!

2. She's a woman, she already wants you dead at least a couple days each month!

3. It's Sharia Law. Whoever IM'd you should learn how to spell.

4. See red above. Did I miss a memo? Cause I never stopped...





"Hammer" you just hit nail!
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 4:56:04 AM EDT
The concept of "honor killing" is deeply entrenched in European and American culture as well -- with one HUGE difference.

Dueling is "honor killing" pure and simple. Oftentimes, duels took place over a man raping or molesting a woman. But Euro-heritage dueling acknowledges that the MAN is at fault for imposing himself on the woman, and the men of her family would avenge her upon the man who wronged her.

HUGE difference from Islamic shariya "honor killing" in which the woman is automatically at fault simply for being female, and is murdered, often by torture.
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 6:59:42 AM EDT
Folks, I certainly was not the one to send any such IM's to sherrick13.

I do have an experience that I'd like to share, though.

My brother in law is really good friends with a Muslim man, and through my BIL this man came to know about Christianity. In fact, the friend is seriously considering converting to Christianity. However, since he began investigating Christianity, the following problems have occured:

1. His wife threatens to divorce him if he becomes Christian.
2. His co-workers (most of them Muslim) have learned of his interest, and are now actively seeking to run him out of the company. I mean very underhanded, dirty back stabbing going on.

This is all happening here in the USA. I'm not going to tell you what to make of it, but I dont' think that this man's experience is unique.
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 8:31:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Then you'll at least have to grant that Zarqawi was a religious leader in a terrorist movement... and furthermore that he had tacit approval from a good percentage of legitimate leaders of the religion... I do not see it as BS.


No I would'nt agree with that becaus it is factually incorrect.

Its no more correct than calling George Bush a religous leader (which some liberals do). He's a religous man and he is a leader. He is not a religous leader.

Tom Landry was a religous man and a leader on the gridiron, he was not a religous leader.

Zarqawi was a religous man and a terrorist leader. He was not a religous leader.

As far as "tacit approval" that is a charge for which there is no answer, which is why you are making it. I know he had PUBLIC approval from several religous leaders. I know he had PUBLIC disapproval from several religous leaders.

Your claim is BS and I'm not surprised you can't see it. Hatred tends to blind people and religous hatred moreso.

Link Posted: 8/17/2006 8:36:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2006 8:41:29 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By macman37:
Several, as in "Several HUNDRED" years ago?

And there are a LOT more radical Muslims around than there are "radical" Christians...

Man you guys will do anything to make all religions look as bad as radical Islam looks, won't you?


Honor Killings were only outlawed in Brazil (A nation composed primarily of Christians, much like the US) in 1991. The year before there were over 800 honor killings. Columbia outlawed honor killings in 1980.

Honor killing still occur in both countries, the vast majority committed by Christan men.

Its a cultural issue, not a religous issue.

I will agree that there are a lot more radical Muslims these days than Radical Christians, but that is only because of the cultural influence in the western world. Christians from the middle east are as fucked up as the Muslims.

Link Posted: 8/17/2006 9:41:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Then you'll at least have to grant that Zarqawi was a religious leader in a terrorist movement... and furthermore that he had tacit approval from a good percentage of legitimate leaders of the religion... I do not see it as BS.


No I would'nt agree with that becaus it is factually incorrect.

Its no more correct than calling George Bush a religous leader (which some liberals do). He's a religous man and he is a leader. He is not a religous leader.

Tom Landry was a religous man and a leader on the gridiron, he was not a religous leader.

Zarqawi was a religous man and a terrorist leader. He was not a religous leader.

As far as "tacit approval" that is a charge for which there is no answer, which is why you are making it. I know he had PUBLIC approval from several religous leaders. I know he had PUBLIC disapproval from several religous leaders.

Your claim is BS and I'm not surprised you can't see it. Hatred tends to blind people and religous hatred moreso.



Hatred, Dino? Please. Zarqawi was frequently referred to as being the leader in the al Qaeda movement. What is al Qaeda but a religious movement?


...al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi



... the assassination of al-Qaida leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi


Wikipedia:


As an Islamist identified with the Salafi movement, Zarqawi opposed the presence of United States and Western military forces in the Islamic world and opposed the West's support for and the existence of Israel. In September 2005, he reportedly declared "all-out war" on Shia Muslims in Iraq [2] and is believed responsible for dispatching numerous Al-Qaeda suicide bombers throughout Iraq, especially to areas with large concentrations of Shia civilians. As the leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq he is suspected of causing thousands of people's deaths – many, if not most of them, civilians.


You and I disagree on this point. Leave it at that. Do not suggest I am blinded by anything.
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 1:00:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2006 1:04:15 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By macman37:

You and I disagree on this point. Leave it at that. Do not suggest I am blinded by anything.


You're correct. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying you were blinded. Thanks for clarifying matters.



p.s. the quote you used identifed him as a Salafi Islamist. Islamism is the POLITICAL IDEOLOGY that Islam is MORE THAN A RELIGION and also governs all other concerns (social. political, and economic). Not that I expect that to make a dent, but at least have to try. Its important to know what words mean when you cut and paste them.
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 4:51:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I got this email from someone here. I'm not going to say from who, however I will use it to illustrate a point.

Some of you don't know shit and need to shut the fuck up!


Nice of you to "Protect" my identity, but I don't mind who knows the truth. I'm the "Stupid A**hole" who sent this email. I'm sorry that Sherrick and/or his wife took offence, but I guess I know now why my subsequent emails and questions to them have been ignored. For anyone who wants to know, I am:

James D. Braddy
San Antonio, Tx.
My email is JDBraddy@satx.rr.com

If anyone thinks I deserve and ass-kicken, then email me, I'll give you directions and you can come on over, and we'll discuss things however you like. I've been respectfull, and am not ashamed of anything I've said. I backed everything with refrences to applicable documents, and direct quotes. Of course the email above was sent in responce to his reply to one of my posts in another thread, on another discussion group, and I guess he was too upset to continue corresponding directly with me, or give reasoned argument or responce to the related questions I had asked. Because It's Islamic faith itself I'm challenging, not his wife personally. I only asked how one reconsiles what Sharia (never could spell) law and the Qur'an, with being loyal to a secular constitutional government like the Uninted States. I've asked that question a number of different ways, to a number of different people and groups over the last couple of weeks, including a number of Islamic groups like Center for American Islamic Relations, and no one yet has been able to provide a phillisophically defensable answer. I think that's a shame, but it tells me a lot!

JDBraddy

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