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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/4/2001 6:51:55 PM EDT
I await your flames with bated breath... I’m pro-RKBA and pro-life, but I wasn’t always that way. In my youth, I felt it was a woman’s right to have total control over her body, especially reproduction. I’ve always been a Christian and it wasn’t Christianity that changed my mind regarding abortion. I think what happened is, as I got older I realized we human beings are special creatures. Whether or not you believe in God, creation, or evolution has nothing to do with it. My view is more pragmatic: just look around you. Do you see apes building rockets to go to the moon? Do you see elephants creating works of art and writing poetry? When was the last time a cat wrote a symphony? It doesn’t happen, does it? Obviously, these animals are lower life forms. The fact we can think in the abstract, have freedom of choice, and are aware of our own mortality makes us special. If we admit that we are special, that we are above these lower life forms, then what gives us the right to take the life of a fellow special creature? It’s quite presumptuous to assume just because your body is the vessel in which a child is reared that you own that human being and that it is your right to terminate that person’s life on a whim. If one is honest enough to admit that we human beings are special creatures then doesn’t it make sense that the qualities that make us special begin at conception? From the moment a woman’s egg is fertilized, a special, human being is created. That person has the right to be given the chance to prosper – to establish his place in the world and live a full life. I would argue that religion, or the lack thereof, has nothing to do with it. Just look around you. Furthermore, to those who hold the selfish opinion that it is your body – that the human being living inside of you is your property -- as far as I‘m concerned you are a member of the lower life forms. By failing to be honest enough with yourself to admit that human beings are special and deserve the chance to fully develop into the special creature that we are, to me you are no longer special either. Now, doesn’t that make you feel special?
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:55:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: I await your flames with bated breath...
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You won't get any flames from me. I couldn't agree more. SOL
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:55:52 PM EDT
"LIFE, LIBERTY....." PRO GUN CHOICE
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:57:35 PM EDT
BETTER LOCK THIS THREAD NOW!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:00:56 PM EDT
black&green, I'm hoping to get flamed at least once before it's locked, come on! :)
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:01:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: I await your flames with bated breath...
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I think you mean ...flames with baited ass, thats what those flamers like to do, burn your ass for daring to support the Right to LIFE.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:01:48 PM EDT
While I am personally opposed to abortion and consider it repugnant, I haven't yet reached a point where I am convinced that my beliefs on the subject should be forced on those who do not share them.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:03:40 PM EDT
Very, very well put. However, I must add: A child is dependent on it's mother until around 18 months. So if it is the woman's choice, why not "abort" (let's use the correct term: premeditatedly murder) up until 18 months? James
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:05:07 PM EDT
It's murder. Plain and simple.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:06:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer: While I am personally opposed to abortion and consider it repugnant, I haven't yet reached a point where I am convinced that my beliefs on the subject should be forced on those who do not share them.
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Well done! I say Well done! Spoken like a proper gentleman.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:09:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: black&green, I'm hoping to get flamed at least once before it's locked, come on! :)
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Man...i have my opinions too, but not the time or energy to argue them here!!!!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:09:34 PM EDT
I don't recall forcing my opinion on anyone. I'm merely suggesting that those who support abortion look at it from a different perspective. It's simply my opinion, nothing more. However, in regards to this subject, I do believe Roe vs. Wade was the only time an opinion was forced upon the people.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:12:15 PM EDT
Anyway, buddy, i think "misguided" is not a word you need to use....you are entitled to your opinion....100%.....B&G
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:24:12 PM EDT
Two points. One is population I don't want any more damn neighbors. The USA would have a town the size of Metro Omaha ever year added to the poplulation if not for abortion. Second point I agree it is murder, and without abortion all those children would be raised by murderers with the morals of murderers. I do not think our country can afford generation after generation of children raised by murderers
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:27:07 PM EDT
1 There are not any pro abortion groups I've ever seen. There is pro life, you cant have an abortion. Then there is pro choice, you have the right to choose your own choice, WOW! that sounds strange. Here in the US? Where you are wrong is that they are special. Nobody is special Your kid and you too are just as plain as all the others. If you have any, its the piont I'm trying to say. So therefor it is a womans choice and problem to handle and as a man you dont have any right to say anything about abortion except you dont want to pay for it. The worst thing anyone can do is make a girl have a child especially when she does not want to bear one.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:27:48 PM EDT
1 There are not any pro abortion groups I've ever seen. There is pro life, you cant have an abortion. Then there is pro choice, you have the right to choose your own choice, WOW! that sounds strange. Here in the US? Where you are wrong is that they are special. Nobody is special Your kid and you too are just as plain as all the others. If you have any, its the piont I'm trying to say. So therefor it is a womans choice and problem to handle and as a man you dont have any right to say anything about abortion except you dont want to pay for it. The worst thing anyone can do is make a girl have a child especially when she does not want to bear one.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:29:19 PM EDT
B&G, right on. :)
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:29:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer: While I am personally opposed to abortion and consider it repugnant, I haven't yet reached a point where I am convinced that my beliefs on the subject should be forced on those who do not share them.
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Ditto, and eloquently put. Eric
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:37:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 7:38:17 PM EDT by specialist]
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE:
Originally Posted By Boomer: While I am personally opposed to abortion and consider it repugnant, I haven't yet reached a point where I am convinced that my beliefs on the subject should be forced on those who do not share them.
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Well done! I say Well done! Spoken like a proper gentleman.
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Said well enough to say again!!! Well Spoken!!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:41:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:44:44 PM EDT
Gun Guru, pro-choice is double-speak for pro-abortion. It's the final outcome that's salient. I don't consider myself special in relation to anyone else, but I do feel as human beings we are all special and have the right to be treated in a certain manner. As men we certainly have the right, if not the obligation, to speak our minds in regards to the treatment of our fellow human beings. The fact women serve as carriers for new human beings is irrelevant. It is unfortunate that some women become pregnant during a time when they are in no condition to care for a child. However, one could argue that we all have to take responsibility for our actions, no matter how inconvenient the outcome is for us. There was a time when adoption was the socially acceptable alternative. Today it is murder, which speaks volumns as to what we’ve become as a people.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:50:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:58:45 PM EDT
DK-Prof, I'm surprised you find this outragous. Is it your opinion that the unborn child, whatever the stage of development, is the property of the mother? At one time people had the right to own others. I thought that kind of belief system went out with slavery?
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:00:25 PM EDT
I am constantly changing my mind on this issue. 1)Suppose it was made illegal, it would still continue under worse conditions. 2)Is it really fair to force someone to have a child they don't want? 3)Is that life more important than 9 months of your life. I hate that abortion has become an option for stupid people who won't use their contraceptives. [smoke] What kind of sense does it make that anyone can have a kid, but I have to pass a background check to have a gun.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:09:59 PM EDT
I am just curious how writing about a particular subject is considered "forcing" the idea on someone? Oh, and I couldn't agree with mattja more.' M18A1 Claymore
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:30:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 8:47:46 PM EDT by steyrgirl]
maybe this will help. abortion is a reality like war. it is seldom good. it always has and always will exist. not liking it won't make it go away. my problem is those of you who lay the blame soley at the womans feet. some idiot said if women could just keep their pants on they wouldn't need abortions. well i say if all men were responsible we wouldn't be pregnant either. i also hate those who oppose birth control and abortion. if you allowed for birth control that goes a long way to prevent abortion. i have never had an abortion and wouldn't want one. i've only had one pregnancy scare and if i was really pregnant i would have a child now. because i love and will marry the man i'm with. and i do wan't children one day. but consider the people who get abortions. most are not even responsible enough to not get pregnant. i don't think they will make very responsible parents and i don't really want to deal with their messed up kids. you guys remember that little bastard that shot the little girl in school who wasn't even charged because he was raised in a crackhouse? i wish he had been an abortion. it would have saved an innocent little girls life.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:35:33 PM EDT
pro choice - you could not stop somebody from getting a abortion even if it was illegal---- MYOFB
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:43:47 PM EDT
Look people, its got to be the individual woman's choice. She's the one that has to live with the decision. What about the woman that is raped and gets pregnant. You going to force her to have the baby? Cmon. Thats ridiculous. Are you going to force a 13 year old teen to have a baby if she gets pregnant? She can't even take care of herself? If she wants the baby, thats a different story. But everyone has freedom of choice.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:18:11 PM EDT
steyrgirl, I understand what you're saying. To oppose both contraception and abortion is illogical in a practical sense. There may be religious reasons to support such a position, but at least for me I find such a position hard to justify. I was always pro-choice as a young man, but within the last few years as I approach 40, I've taken the position that the child, in any stage of development, is not the property of the mother. When you look at it that way, that you cannot own another, then it's difficult to argue that it's a woman's right to kill her baby. It's true some girls get into trouble at a young age. Maybe they will have to take a year off from high school or postpone college for a year in order to have the baby. But is that too much to ask to insure the life of a child? In the case of rape, that is such a difficult question. Although the mother was raped, one cannot hold the developing child responsible for the cruelty of another. Some would argue that it’s cruel and unusual punishment to require the mother to go to term. I hope my wife or future daughters never have to make such a decision. It certainly would test our convictions as both a family and as human beings.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:21:09 PM EDT
it is actually not a big issue with me. i'm just looking at the logic of it.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:31:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gunlover: But everyone has freedom of choice.
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So..what about the choice of the unborn bady that is being killed?? I always wonder about threads concerning abortion and religon and it begs these question to be asked: 1. [b] How many of you that support abortion are also aetheist?[/b] 2. I would also like to know how many of you abortionist would have supported your mothers choice if she aborted you? 3. And how many couples do you think actually plan their first child? Both of my children were unplanned, yet I was still happy to have them. Also, the issue of a pregnance from a rape is such a smmall percentage that makes for a very weak arguement. A pregancy is like a bullet. once you pull that trigger it will eventually exit the barrel, so once you fertalize an egg it will become a living creature. Talk to someone that actually had an abortion. 9 out of 10 of them will tell you how terible it was (physically and emotionally) and how it haunts them for the rest of their life. That alone should tell you something. Fact is this: abortion is being used as a means of birth control and is an act of people unwilling to take responsiblity for their own actions. If you have sex then you better be will to except the conciquenses (sp?), and I don't care if the person is 13 or 30!! sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:01:08 AM EDT
steyrgirl, seriously, what part of it do you find illogical?
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:08:32 AM EDT
I disagree with the majority here. Abortion is nothing important to me. I kill more life than an abortion whenever I eat a Big Mac. In my book any man who says he's strongly anti-abortion is really saying he has problems with controling women and needs to get himself a shrink, and a life. Simple as that. Where does God fit into my view? Nowhere. I'm quite sure Jesus never told his flock to go forth and judge your neighbors. To seek out the grey areas of life and pass judgment. Yourself. Nope. No, these anti-womens rights men have created this mess themselves. Guess they were bored. If there is a God and if they do come before Him on judgment day I am quite sure of what He will say to them. Something along the lines of HOW DARE YOU! I'm not a religious man but even I think that's a no brainer. Call me a big softy but I'd *love* to catch one of these sissy guys who shoot doctors and bomb the small clinics that do abortions. I would take this weak minded SOB some place secluded and show him right from wrong, begining with wrong. I guarantee he'd never again think he was a judge of anyone, or anything. Now that's American justice. Squeal like a pig you fat mama's boy murderer. Squeal...!!
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:27:12 AM EDT
El Kabong, I don't believe in clinic bombings or murdering doctors either, but if what you say is serious, man, I don't know. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even men.
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