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Posted: 12/24/2003 5:35:36 AM EDT
He owns a Makarov pistol and they know he changed the barrel on it. They want to see his pistol.
Anyone remember the story about the DA getting murdered a while back?
Legal advice?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:37:00 AM EDT
how do they know that?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:39:08 AM EDT
1) how did they know he changed the barrel

2) how did they know he has the pistol

3) there are a shitload of maks out there.  Why him?

Call a lawyer.  Have the lawyer surrender the pistol.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:43:48 AM EDT
I think they got the sales records from the barrel seller and then followed that route.
They're fishing a bit I think.
They could only know he bought a barrel unless they checked every 4473 in the country. NICS checks dont name the specific gun. Just handgun/rifle I believe.

Why have a lawyer surrender the pistol?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:45:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 5:48:18 AM EDT by cyanide]
My answer would be
"sure, just show me a warrant" and I will be more than willing to comply. No further discussion after that -- they are pros at trying to get you to not seek legal advise or giving consent for searches and such.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:48:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
1) how did they know he changed the barrel

2) how did they know he has the pistol

3) there are a shitload of maks out there.  Why him?

Call a lawyer.  Have the lawyer surrender the pistol.
View Quote


This BS again. Tell him to tell the FBI to Fuck off and get a warrent for the pistol. They have no proof he commited acrime with it they have no reason to test it or see it to see if it was used in that murder. I'm even surised the damn FBI is wasting time with this. I mean really the gun they want is sitting at the bottom of some deep water lake or in a river or cut up and destroyed.

We need to put a stop to shit like this. If they can do this type of shit for one murder than thay will be able to get away with it for any murder. No one went around collecting all the 9mm in the city when a friend of mine was killed so they could try and find the gun. Of course he wasn't a federal employee and thus special. Fuck The FBI and this BS tactic that won't lead them to the killer.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:48:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cyanide:
My answer would be
"sure, just show me a warrant" and I will be more than willing to comply.
View Quote


I dont think he really cares about that much. He's just a little spooked.
He called me first thing because I told him this might happen when the story broke a while back.
Does anyone have a link to the original story?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:48:31 AM EDT
That's what I meant..have the lawyer ask the questions.  You don't want to have any direct contact with The Man if they think you might have done something.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:50:48 AM EDT
He is a green card holder like myself. I would be reluctant to tell any Fed GFY as I'm sure he is.
They could make your life difficult I'm sure.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:55:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 6:07:53 AM EDT by Fruit_of_the_Looms]
There was something about this over on the FALFiles.com in their FAC forum. It was a pretty big thread at one time, though I didn't follow it too closely.

But the gist of it was the FBI had supeona'ed (probably) FAC's sales records concerning replacement barrels for Makarov's. I can't recall why, though.

I'll slip over there and see if I can turn up the thread.

[i]Here's the results of a search at Falfiles. It seems the "big" thread was a little smaller than I remembered. Oops. [:D][/i]

[url=http://www.falfiles.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=326938&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending]Falfiles search[/url]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:56:27 AM EDT
This issue first came up about a month ago.  I doubt your buddy (he's in Florida, right?" had anything to do with a murder in Seattle.  The Feds obviously have so little to go on they're bothering thousands of people across the country who have nothing to do with the crime. Just co-operate.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:57:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 6:00:40 AM EDT by COZ]
You have to do a 4473 and a NICS check to buy a barrel?

I'd give them the gun, Why waste your money on a Lawyer if your not guilty. If your friend bought the gun and the barrel before the shooting than it's not going to match ballistics. On the other hand if your friend has something to hide he had better get a lawyer.

Please dont flame me, I know there are numerous scenerios out there of SHTF.

What is really wild is that we think there isn't a national firearms database. They know every gun we have thats on a 4473 or been through a NICS check. Just look how they go about stuff when they need the info.


COZ

Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:03:15 AM EDT
this is why people buy things off ebay...  just a thought.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:08:13 AM EDT
"You have to do a 4473 and a NICS check to buy a barrel?"

No. I'm pretty sure they are using the barrel sellers records to track people down.
IIRC the Mak used had an aftermarket barrel. That makes the pool of suspects smaller and easier to track down.
Ya, he's in Fl, and no, he's never even been to WA.
I'm just trying to get a lttle more info on the story.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:10:34 AM EDT
Did you see the link I just added to my previous post? It should help you out.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:12:35 AM EDT
Look what I found.
[url]http://www.gunweek.com/2003/fbi0720.html[/url]


The FBI apparently located Makarov owners using information obtained by subpoena from a Minnesota-based importer, Federal Arms Corporation (FAC). They are specifically testing pistols that were fitted with FAC-manufactured replacement barrels either chambered in .380 ACP or 9x18. Imported Makarovs originally were chambered for the 9x18 Makarov cartridge, but many of those pistols were re-barreled to accept the .380-caliber cartridge. FAC makes replacement Makarov barrels in both calibers, a company source confirmed.

The subpoena supplied to Gun Week specifically sought guns and barrels “. . . to include any and all Makarov 9x18mm aftermarket barrels you purchased from Federal Arms Corporation, Incorporated.”

So serious is the investigation that the subpoena further demanded, “If you no longer possess a Makarov pistol(s) or FAC after-market barrel(s), you are hereby commanded to provide any and all records/information as to whom the pistol(s) and barrel(s) were sold/transferred to, including all identifying information relating to the purchasers/transferees.”
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:12:43 AM EDT
How in the world would the FBI know the murder weapon had an aftermarket barrel if they dont have the gun?


Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:19:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fruit_of_the_Looms:
Did you see the link I just added to my previous post? It should help you out.
View Quote



The link wont work for me. I'm not registered there. Thanks anyway.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:20:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:21:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:24:09 AM EDT
Oops. Sorry about that. Guess I'll do it this way.

[url=http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67517&highlight=Makarov+barrels]First thread[/url]

[url=http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84039&highlight=Makarov+barrels]Second thread[/url]

[url=http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81451&highlight=Makarov+barrels]Third thread[/url]

[url=http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81157&highlight=Makarov+barrels]Fourth thread[/url]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:26:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
just turn over the makarov. your friend will have it back in two days.

the fbi is checking ballistic matches with every .380 fac-barreled mak in the country.

meanwhile, the real killer is probably laughing his ass off knowing that the pieces of his torched up makarov are in 5 different landfills.
View Quote


I think he will just turn it over and you're right about what a collosal waste of time this is.
It would spook me having a wake up call from the FBI as I think it did him.
When I see him today I just want to have some more info.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:26:55 AM EDT
Think about this for a minute. THis is no different that if the feds called you and said they want to see your AR because you purchased an extra barrel for you AR.

Require a warrent and have a lawyer hand over the gun. When you get it back know that it will have been ballistically fingerprinted and when you sell it keep your records.

CH
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:37:38 AM EDT
OK. I just thought of something. Apparently, the killer used a .380 round in a 9x18 barrel.

Would you want someone test firing your pistol with the wrong ammo?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:43:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby:
you are hereby commanded to provide any and all records/information as to whom the pistol(s) and barrel(s) were sold/transferred to,
View Quote


wow.. now I am COMMANDED.. oh guess I better talk..

can they legally COMMAND you?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:03:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 7:05:08 AM EDT by photoman]
Ok I took the time to think about this, and this is what I came up with. Tell yer friend to tell the FBI that if they'd like to have his barrel to test that they can BUY it from him for fair market vale.

Come on guys the last thing anyone should do is turn over their gun or barrel to the FBI. They are fishing, they don't know what else to do. This is just another in a long line of infringments and stomping of other rights as well. I can see them doing something like this in Washington state, but to canvase the whole country???!!!

If I were an owner of one of these pistols and I lived in florida I'd be pissed. I'd be beyond pissed, that I'm being treated like a suspect in a murder that took place what 1000+ miles away simply because I own a spesific type of gun. Imagine when the next politican or federal prosecuter turns up shot to death. Will they come for all the glock barrels, or AR barrel, or Sig barrels etc. Where will it stop. The precident is set. They can now get away with doing this shit in the feature.

Think about those highway shootings in Ohio. This gives them the right to find everyone who owns a .30cal rifle(don't know the cal used this is an example) and go take their gun for testing. Everyone who owns that particular cal rifle will be a "suspect".
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:08:25 AM EDT
Why are you people make up such a far our story?  We all know this can't be true because we elected a President who is pro-gun, respects our rights, respects the constitution and even appointed a staunchly pro-gun Attorney General.

[ROFL2] [ROFL2]

If this type of behavior is allowed by the strong defenders of the constitution and the second amendment...then we are truely fucked.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:09:21 AM EDT
We're fucked, or didn't you notice?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:24:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 7:25:18 AM EDT by cyanide]
Lets put a different twist on this to answer the same question.

All (submit your brand) AR15's sold since Jan. of 2003, would you let them take yours for a test, voluntarily  turn it over for examination, submit to questions without an attorney ??????
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:25:07 AM EDT
Just another reason to never fill out a 4473.  Every time I say this some condescending jerk-off jumps in with assanine tin foil hat/paranoia comments.  Nothing good can ever result from filling out fed.goon registration forms.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:30:03 AM EDT
It's comforting to know that anyone who commits a crime with a Makarov in this country will be tracked down unmercifully. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:32:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby:
He is a green card holder like myself. I would be reluctant to tell any Fed GFY as I'm sure he is.
They could make your life difficult I'm sure.
View Quote


Another foreigner with a gun! Where's garandman when you need him? Why would an American assist is finding the murder of a officer of the court?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:43:56 AM EDT
Why are they doing this?  Simple, when complete, they can go back to their bosses and the family of the victim and tell them we did everything in our power to try to solve this case.  Here, they have a known aftermarket barrel used to commit the crime.  They have the sales records for those barrels and are doing what any detective with unlimited resources would do.  Following up and narrowing the possibilities.  Every one they test is one that didn't commit the crime.  Simple Sherlock Holmes.  When you eliminate Whatever its not, whatever is left is the solution.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:44:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NevadaARshooter:
Just another reason to never fill out a 4473.  Every time I say this some condescending jerk-off jumps in with assanine tin foil hat/paranoia comments.  Nothing good can ever result from filling out fed.goon registration forms.
View Quote


Ding ding ding...we have a winner. This is why I go to the funshow. To buy without paper work.

Oops, fill out the paper work for the childern!!!

Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:11:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Why are you people make up such a far our story?  We all know this can't be true because we elected a President who is pro-gun, respects our rights, respects the constitution and even appointed a staunchly pro-gun Attorney General.


[ROFL2] [ROFL2]

If this type of behavior is allowed by the strong defenders of the constitution and the second amendment...then we are truely fucked.
View Quote


Please explain how obstructing a homocide investigation asserts your civil liberties.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:14:57 AM EDT
Here, I'll explain it.

Just because someone was shot with a 9x18 Makarov with a FAC replacement barrel, does not give the feds the right to roust everybody who owns one.  That's not the way this country is supposed to work.

Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:17:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Here, I'll explain it.

Just because someone was shot with a 9x18 Makarov with a FAC replacement barrel, does not give the feds the right to roust everybody who owns one.  That's not the way this country is supposed to work.

View Quote


Put your thinking cap on.  What if it was a vehicular homocide committed with a purple VW bus.  Would the feds have the right to question owners of vehicles matching that description?  Or is that an egregious violation of our civil rights?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:20:09 AM EDT
In Florida?? for a crime that occurred in Washington State?  Hell no.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:24:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
In Florida?? for a crime that occurred in Washington State?  Hell no.
View Quote


Well ignoring that it is the federal authorities investigating this case, are you saying it would be unreasonable to assume the murderer may have left the state?  Or was visiting from another state?

I dont understand your reasoning as to why it is inappropriate to extend the investigation nationwide.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:24:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Here, I'll explain it.

Just because someone was shot with a 9x18 Makarov with a FAC replacement barrel, does not give the feds the right to roust everybody who owns one.  That's not the way this country is supposed to work.

View Quote


Put your thinking cap on.  What if it was a vehicular homocide committed with a purple VW bus.  Would the feds have the right to question owners of vehicles matching that description?  Or is that an egregious violation of our civil rights?
View Quote


So you're saying they should impound all *insert make/model* in the country every time there's an unsolved crime involving a *insert make/model*.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:26:15 AM EDT
Some people think that an extensive firearm registry doesn't exist......They tracked this guy on a barrel purchase.

Makes me feel uneasy.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:28:07 AM EDT
Who was it that was killed? Would they be going thru all of this if it was you or I that was killed? I think not!
CH
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:29:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StarAtari:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Here, I'll explain it.

Just because someone was shot with a 9x18 Makarov with a FAC replacement barrel, does not give the feds the right to roust everybody who owns one.  That's not the way this country is supposed to work.

View Quote


Put your thinking cap on.  What if it was a vehicular homocide committed with a purple VW bus.  Would the feds have the right to question owners of vehicles matching that description?  Or is that an egregious violation of our civil rights?
View Quote


So you're saying they should impound all *insert make/model* in the country every time there's an unsolved crime involving a *insert make/model*.
View Quote


Dont put words in my mouth. I never said that.  If the feds want to look at your gun (or car) why not let them?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:31:16 AM EDT
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,[B] and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation,[/B] and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:32:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By StarAtari:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Here, I'll explain it.

Just because someone was shot with a 9x18 Makarov with a FAC replacement barrel, does not give the feds the right to roust everybody who owns one.  That's not the way this country is supposed to work.

View Quote


Put your thinking cap on.  What if it was a vehicular homocide committed with a purple VW bus.  Would the feds have the right to question owners of vehicles matching that description?  Or is that an egregious violation of our civil rights?
View Quote


So you're saying they should impound all *insert make/model* in the country every time there's an unsolved crime involving a *insert make/model*.
View Quote


Dont put words in my mouth. I never said that.  If the feds want to look at your gun (or car) why not let them?
View Quote

The Feds dont want to look at his mak, they want to confiscate and test fire it.  Sure they can ask whatever questions they want, but they can't take it without a good reason.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:35:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By StarAtari:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Here, I'll explain it.

Just because someone was shot with a 9x18 Makarov with a FAC replacement barrel, does not give the feds the right to roust everybody who owns one.  That's not the way this country is supposed to work.

View Quote


Put your thinking cap on.  What if it was a vehicular homocide committed with a purple VW bus.  Would the feds have the right to question owners of vehicles matching that description?  Or is that an egregious violation of our civil rights?
View Quote


So you're saying they should impound all *insert make/model* in the country every time there's an unsolved crime involving a *insert make/model*.
View Quote


Dont put words in my mouth. I never said that.  If the feds want to look at your gun (or car) why not let them?
View Quote


Because this is a free country based on liberty and individual freedom, where innocent people are not to be subjected to abuse or intrusions by government agents without reasonable evidence that the person has committed a crime.  That does not include owning a similar car (or anything) that some thug may have used.  If there is a witness identifying the car AND plate tag number (providing some real evidence)... well that's a different story.

Fucking JBTs.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:36:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Dont put words in my mouth. I never said that.  If the feds want to look at your gun (or car) why not let them?
View Quote


"If you're innocent you have nothing to fear.  Your papers, please?"
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:37:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar:
Why are they doing this?  Simple, when complete, they can go back to their bosses and the family of the victim and tell them we did everything in our power to try to solve this case.  Here, they have a known aftermarket barrel used to commit the crime.  They have the sales records for those barrels and are doing what any detective with unlimited resources would do.  Following up and narrowing the possibilities.  Every one they test is one that didn't commit the crime.  Simple Sherlock Holmes.  When you eliminate Whatever its not, whatever is left is the solution.
View Quote


Talk about elitist bullshit. There doing this because it was federal prosecuter who was killed. This is something they would not do for the average Joe even if they knew what type of gun was used. I know this for a fact cuz they sure as hell did not do it when a friend of mine was murdered.

Asking me to see my barrel because someone used a similar gun in a murder 1000 miles away is unresonable, to take it or search my house(warrent or not) for it because I won't give it up is unresonable, It violates my rights which are protected by the constitution of the United State of America. It does not matter whos death they are investigating, these tactics are BS it doesn't matter if they are doing it so they can tell the family that they did everthing they can.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:39:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NevadaARshooter:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By StarAtari:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Here, I'll explain it.

Just because someone was shot with a 9x18 Makarov with a FAC replacement barrel, does not give the feds the right to roust everybody who owns one.  That's not the way this country is supposed to work.

View Quote


Put your thinking cap on.  What if it was a vehicular homocide committed with a purple VW bus.  Would the feds have the right to question owners of vehicles matching that description?  Or is that an egregious violation of our civil rights?
View Quote


So you're saying they should impound all *insert make/model* in the country every time there's an unsolved crime involving a *insert make/model*.
View Quote


Dont put words in my mouth. I never said that.  If the feds want to look at your gun (or car) why not let them?
View Quote


Because this is a free country based on liberty and individual freedom, where innocent people are not to be subjected to abuse or intrusions by government agents without reasonable evidence that the person has committed a crime.  That does not include owning a similar car (or anything) that some thug may have used.  If there is a witness identifying the car AND plate tag number (providing some real evidence)... well that's a different story.

Fucking JBTs.
View Quote


Good answer.  You convinced me, especially in light that while I'd never not co-operate with Feds "just cuz", this doesn't seem like a very effective tack for their investigation to take.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:40:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Please explain how obstructing a homocide investigation asserts your civil liberties.
View Quote


So when the DC shootings were going on the Feds were demanding everyone turn in their AR15 to be "checked".  Why didn't you FedEx yours so you would have been cleared?  What would you have done had the FBI called you demanding you turn in your AR15 in Alaska for the DC shootings?  Would you have complied?

I can't wait until the far reaching hand of the government that you so strongly support turns around and smacks you upside the head.  Of course by that point it will be too late.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:45:33 AM EDT

So serious is the investigation that the subpoena further demanded, “If you no longer possess a Makarov pistol(s) or FAC after-market barrel(s), you are hereby commanded to provide any and all records/information as to whom the pistol(s) and barrel(s) were sold/transferred to, including all identifying information relating to the purchasers/transferees.”
View Quote



Well gee wiz, since when do *I* have to keep a record of who I sold a gun barrel to?
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