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Posted: 12/28/2012 2:51:29 PM EDT
I have been back and forth all day with my cousin who claims she is pro-2nd , buts wants to ban all "assault weapons" . I have thrown every bit of knowledge I have at her as to what the simple words of "right to bear arms" and "shall not be infringed" truly mean. She is a very nice person , her intentions are good , she cares for the safety of her children and others , but simply can not grasp the true concept of the 2nd. Why don't some people get it? No matter how I try to word it ,no matter how many hours I type out explanations , she just simply does not think civilians should own AR-15's , AK's etc. I am just convinced she watches too much main stream media. My head hurts trying to defend 2A but I will not stop until these people "get it".
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 2:53:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 2:54:48 PM EDT by Roland3]
I think we are fighting a losing battle

It seems like anyone who doesnt own one feals that way
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 2:53:07 PM EDT
90% of what we face is dealing with emotional wrecks.

Logic is alien to these people.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 2:54:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By piccolo:
90% of what we face is dealing with emotional wrecks.

Logic is alien to these people.


yep. Its a sickness
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 2:56:56 PM EDT
I think the reality of the 2nd Amendment scares a lot of people.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 2:58:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
90% of what we face is dealing with emotional wrecks.

Logic is alien to these people.

2ndPNI.... 1st poster has been stuck behind the lines too long
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 2:58:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 2:59:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
I think the reality of the 2nd Amendment scares a lot of people.


I agree 100% . They want to believe that the very reason we have the 2nd could never happen , when the 2nd is the very reason why "it" hasn't happened.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:00:34 PM EDT
This is what Hollywood, the media, and much of D.C. has been working to achieve for many years with much hard work.
We have had it too easy for too long...sad to say but I think it's the truth...
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:01:06 PM EDT
I just got sucked into a conversation, via the online comments section of a local paper, with a genius who made claims like this:

"Technically, an AR-15 is basically not an assault rifle, but, when a large capacity magazine is used, it is then an assault weapon. The m-16, military version of the Ar-15 has a selector that allows one to fire semi-automatic, one round at a time, or automatic, 3 round bursts. The large capacity magazine when used in conjunction with the Ar-15 gives you the same effect as an M-16 firing in 3 round bursts."

and:

"The papers, individual of Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and others were their private wishes and thoughts, not necessarily the thoughts and wishes of the majority of those that ratified the constitution. So, one has to be careful in trying to interpret their importance in the final document, The Constitution of the United States."

He also later tried to show his knowledge of firearms by telling me that, "the AK-47, 7.62 nato round is superior than the M-16. The only reason the U. S. didn't adopt it is because it was invented and made by the soviets, our perceived enemy."

When I pointed out that the round used in the AK-47 was obviously not the 7.62 NATO round I got this explanation:

"The 7.62x39 round was a shrewd move by the Russians. The projectile meets the qualifications of being a Nato round, even though the housing doesn't hold as much powder and is smaller. Some 7.62x39 rounds make up for the decrease in velocity by having an air pocket in the inner tip of the projectile, giving it more devastating power. That means also that the russians can fire our 7.62x51 rounds into their ak 47 but we can't fire their in our rifles. Pretty slick move, don't you think?"



Talk about brain hurting...
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:02:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 3:05:11 PM EDT by GI-45]

Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
I think the reality of the 2nd Amendment scares a lot of people.

Yep. Concepts like "hunting" and "self defense against common criminals" are easy for most people to grasp, which is why they are often brought up in these debates.

"Taking up arms against a tyrannical government" does not compute for most people.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:03:29 PM EDT
Your key point here: "emotionally driven mothers" is where you are falling prey to the problem of thinking you can sway their opinion.

They don't understand that it's a people problem, not a thing problem. It's easier to think that it's a thing problem, because things don't think for themselves.

If it's a people problem, then the solution is incomprehensible to them, therefore, they choose to believe that blaming the thing will accomplish the same goal.

They are wrong. It is sad, and I am sorry for them, but they are wrong.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:03:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
I think the reality of the 2nd Amendment scares a lot of people.
Yep, to really admit that the founder were scared of a central government leading to tyranny is easy to explain, getting folks to admit that it could happen today is next to impossible.
I am reminded of the Jews in Poland early 1939.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:04:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
I think the reality of the 2nd Amendment scares a lot of people.
This.

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:05:57 PM EDT
Ask those moms if they have sons, who might ever be between 17-45 years of age. ... Because those sons are already very legally *Obligated* to report for militia duty, and if they know what they are doing they might make it back.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:06:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
I think the reality of the 2nd Amendment scares a lot of people.




Agreed. They live in active denial.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:07:17 PM EDT
The Second Ammendment is straightforward and plainly worded.

If people don't like it, they are invited to petition their representatives to ammend the Constitution to remove it.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:07:19 PM EDT
I've been trying to find any stats to back it up, but I'm willing to bet more kids are ran over and killed in school parking lots every year than died in CT.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:08:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 3:09:16 PM EDT by RileyS]
The good thing about emotion vs. principle is that, while emotional wrecks can be very intense, principle is consistent over time. These shrill harpies demanding America disarm will eventually move on to some other liberty to peck at. Well wishing mothers will be the death of their children, or at the very least, their freedom.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:10:13 PM EDT
We need to play for time. Let the emotions cool.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:10:24 PM EDT
Yeah I'm pretty much tired of wasting my time trying to convince people what the 2A is about. I've reverted to telling them if you don't like your civil liberties than just leave. Move to another country that better fits your beliefs. Perhaps Canada or England is better suited for you.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:12:16 PM EDT
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:12:31 PM EDT
Talk to her about why she thinks we have the third amendment. It provides insight into the origin of all the amendments.

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:12:48 PM EDT
Yeah wait til one uses the "well regulated" part to advocate gun control.
Their fucking heads just can't wrap around what that meant back then.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:14:09 PM EDT
Explain that the government is made up of men, and like men, the government can be trusted right up until the point where it thinks it can get away with crap, then it can no longer be trusted. The 2A exists to put off the day that the .gov thinks it can get away with crap for as long as possible, then deal with it when that day inevitably comes.

In the 236 year history of the United States, we have seen that day come in every other nation on the face of the planet, even in several countries that now constitute part of the United States. Are the men who comprise our government of better character than men around the entire world, or is our time coming?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:14:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanGunLover:
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.


Please ignore this troll ....

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:14:40 PM EDT
The media is doing its best to push the "assault weapon" line. But in reality, all you have to say is its no more dangerous than any other rifle chambered in a same round. It just looks "scary" b/c the media said so. An AR with a a couple 10 rounds mags is no more dangerous than one with a 30 rnd. Semi auto is semi auto and all the shootings that get the politicians worked up could have been perpetrated with any semi auto and would have been done in the same short amt of time. I wouldnt loose faith anytime soon. Recent events have not made or swayed the opinion of any new people. The same have always called them assault weapons and think the second is for hunting. They are just being noisy.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:15:46 PM EDT
I try to leave the second out of the discussion. People just see it as a law that needs to be changed. I spend my time talking about what typically happens in countries that ban firearms. I talk about how disagreeing with the government gets you shot, "reeducated" etc. I ask them what kind of firearm do you think would work best in preventing that type of thing.

I also like to ask them if they have a pool. I'm in CA so the answer is almost always yes. I tell them that the pool is much more likely to kill there kids than any firearm.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:16:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Memphis38107:
I just got sucked into a conversation, via the online comments section of a local paper, with a genius who made claims like this:

"Technically, an AR-15 is basically not an assault rifle, but, when a large capacity magazine is used, it is then an assault weapon. The m-16, military version of the Ar-15 has a selector that allows one to fire semi-automatic, one round at a time, or automatic, 3 round bursts. The large capacity magazine when used in conjunction with the Ar-15 gives you the same effect as an M-16 firing in 3 round bursts."

and:

"The papers, individual of Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and others were their private wishes and thoughts, not necessarily the thoughts and wishes of the majority of those that ratified the constitution. So, one has to be careful in trying to interpret their importance in the final document, The Constitution of the United States."

He also later tried to show his knowledge of firearms by telling me that, "the AK-47, 7.62 nato round is superior than the M-16. The only reason the U. S. didn't adopt it is because it was invented and made by the soviets, our perceived enemy."

When I pointed out that the round used in the AK-47 was obviously not the 7.62 NATO round I got this explanation:

"The 7.62x39 round was a shrewd move by the Russians. The projectile meets the qualifications of being a Nato round, even though the housing doesn't hold as much powder and is smaller. Some 7.62x39 rounds make up for the decrease in velocity by having an air pocket in the inner tip of the projectile, giving it more devastating power. That means also that the russians can fire our 7.62x51 rounds into their ak 47 but we can't fire their in our rifles. Pretty slick move, don't you think?"



Talk about brain hurting...

Where do people get this shit from? It's amazing how people who are around firearms their whole lives will believe every random tidbit about guns they hear without even thinking about. It's like guns are magic and logic and physics don't apply.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:17:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Desert_AIP:
The Second Ammendment is straightforward and plainly worded.

If people don't like it, they are invited to petition their representatives to ammend the Constitution to remove it.


No they should have left out the part about the necessity of the militia for a free state.... but hindsight and all that....

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:18:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanGunLover:
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.


Afghanistan,

Read about it
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:19:26 PM EDT
I wonder if they will be equally upset when all of their other rights are gone and their families have no means of protecting themselves or resisting?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:21:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanGunLover:
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.


join date?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:21:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 3:23:19 PM EDT by Frosty451]
Originally Posted By AmericanGunLover:
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.


If you think thats how war is fought, i dont want you on my side.
You dont shoot tanks with AR's.
You shoot people with AR's.

Then again, every side needs cannonfodder...


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:21:49 PM EDT
I'm sure these "nice person" liberals do exist. Sadly, they're mistaking evil for good.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:21:58 PM EDT
LOL. That's like trying to discuss the subtleties of music with a man born deaf.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:24:52 PM EDT
You must use an emotional arguement to have any affect on emotionally driven people. Facts and logic won't have much impact. Learned this years ago in sales training.

NAD
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:24:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dr_Dickie:

Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
I think the reality of the 2nd Amendment scares a lot of people.
Yep, to really admit that the founder were scared of a central government leading to tyranny is easy to explain, getting folks to admit that it could happen today is next to impossible.
I am reminded of the Jews in Poland early 1939.


I am reminded of American citizens of Japanese ancestry in 1942. You do not have to look abroad or very far back in the past.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:25:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanGunLover:
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.


That's just an anti-gun talking point repeated often. The reality is that there are more gun-owning Americans than there are soldiers in all of the worlds militaries combined. American civilians also control a great deal of the military through its capitalist nature, if we don't want them to eat, they don't eat.

Nobody wants a war, but the the 2nd restricts the government to keep the power in our hands. They are supposed to be working for us, not the other way around.

Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:27:27 PM EDT
Guns are scary and shit.

Until you get behind one and control it.
Then you realize it's just an object that means nothing without human interaction.

That's what I've observed introducing guns to new shooters.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:28:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 3:28:44 PM EDT by delemorte]
Its pretty easy..

My mother in-law is an anti and a teacher.. she opposes guns in school. two arguments resonated with her.


A. When a guy with a gun shows up at your school and starts killing people who do you call? A guy with a gun

B. If you were locked in your class and a guy with a gun was trying to bust down your door to execute you and your students would you rather a) have a gun or b) be defenseless and wait to be executed ?
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:28:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanGunLover:
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.


You are living in fantasy land if you think a guerrilla war can not be waged against a modern military. Besides your lack of knowledge of armed conflict can you predict the future? It is the intent of many here that the innate right of free men to keep and bear arms is a liberty that is preserved for generations, not just today.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:33:38 PM EDT
Don't talk politics to a woman. Talk politics to her husband and get him to join the NRA. If he joins the NRA and he isn't a pussy his wife will eventually agree with him.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:35:07 PM EDT
The only way to win an emotionally fueled argument is to use emotion.
Say " what kind of mom sends their kids to school that has zero security?"
Or "why do I have to defend my family with inadequate guns?"

They may not understand the real purpose but maybe they can understand your side.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:37:11 PM EDT
It's a tough sell. Here is how I'd do it: ask these people if they trust the government. Ask them if they think the government is capable of terrible things. Ask them if they always trust the media to tell the truth and always trust that the elections to always be free and fair. Ask them to imagine the politician they loathe the most and now imagine that he/she has vast political power. Go from there.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:40:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 3:41:57 PM EDT by cardboardkiller]
Originally Posted By AmericanGunLover:
Do you guys really think we're going to fight off some new civil war with Ar15s?
If you think this is true then I probably shouldn't bother typing anymore.

But as other have said.
When you're down in the woods playing rambo and the M1A1 abrams comes rolling down the street while Drones are spraying hellfire missiles on you.........
You're living in a fantasy land if you think the populace is going to go to war with our government. They have more power and more organization than we could dream of.
What have you got?

An Ar15 and local militias made up of fat guys.


1. A military made up of our fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, cousins, nephews, aunts and uncles.
2. Law enforcement made up of the same people as number 1.
3. Gun owners outnumber the military and law enforcement in this country by 40:1. You can factor in on each side how many from all groups won't fight or will switch sides.
4. If a bunch of donkey fuckers over in the sandbox can fend off the US military for years, what do you think we can do here and against a military that is unwilling to kill its own citizens? Do really think the US military is going to engage in a protracted battle and use missiles and bombs against US citizens?
5. If you have one gun, you can get more and that doesn't count those in the military who would smuggle, sell and steal shit for our side.

I'm sure I've missed more than a few things, but I've been up all last night and today with a sick wife.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:40:44 PM EDT
Mothers are easy. 50% have a daughter. Ask which statistic they would prefer:

1,000,000 rapes and sexual assaults.
30% chance of stopping one.

or

6,500,000 rapes and sexual assaults.
3% chance of stopping one.


Top statistic is with guns, bottom one is England/Australia statistics brought to the US.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:41:32 PM EDT
she's probably one of these people who said Obama will never come after your guns to
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:41:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hodgescl:
The only way to win an emotionally fueled argument is to use emotion.
Say " what kind of mom sends their kids to school that has zero security?"
Or "why do I have to defend my family with inadequate guns?"

They may not understand the real purpose but maybe they can understand your side.


Or, "Why are you mothers so upset about a handful of firearms-related incidents per year when you kill a million plus of your unborn in the same time frame?"
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:45:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 3:53:08 PM EDT by DON70]
I don't wish for a civil war but if anyone thinks the US Government will easily defeat an armed populace have not given this possibility much thought. They would be facing millions of people determined to preserve their liberty at any cost. What incentive would the "government forces" have to fight to the last man. Exactly what would the "government forces" consist of? Would American soldiers fire on their fellow citizens and neighbors? The people would keep a war going for years the way the people in Viet Nam and Agistan have. AR 15s wouldn't be the only weapons they had after a few arms storage depots were over ran and the weapons seized. I won't ever scoff at the possibility of a civil war or a mass secession by several southern states.




Instead of trying to sell someone on the 2nd show them just what an AR15 is. (Explain that AR does not mean "assault rifle") A very accurate modular semi automatic rifle that fires only once every time the trigger is pulled. Show them how to take one apart and how easy it is to replace any part if you think something else will work better. Let them hold it and better still take them to the range and let them see how much fun it is to shoot. I've known many anti gun people that changed their minds after seeing the their targets.
Link Posted: 12/28/2012 3:48:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2012 3:57:42 PM EDT by Tango7]
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