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Posted: 5/23/2005 8:23:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 9:15:57 PM EDT by niceguymr]
I went to an indoor range today (Outdoor World) with my AR and brought some of my Lake City M855 62gr green tip ammo. They allow high power rifles but say they don't allow 'steel core' ammo. They asked to inspect my ammo, and the RO noticed the green tips and said "We don't allow tracers here either". I explained to her that they were not tracers, and told her exactly the type of ammo it was. She then whipped out this magnet and held it to the tip. She said that it must have a steel core because it was adhering to the magnet. Although it would seem as though she was just trying to find an excuse to sell me their in house ammo (winchester 55gr), I really don't think that is the case. I just think she really didn't know for sure what she was talking about and was trying to play it safe. And if I knew more about ammo, then I probably could have explained things better and dealt with the situation appropriately, but since I didn't, I just went ahead and bought some of their ammo just so that I could shoot already. Was I right or was she?
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:25:14 PM EDT
M855 is steel core and some indoor ranges ban it.

Try some of that Win Clean ammo
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:26:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 8:27:09 PM EDT by ARDOC]
She was correct and you were not. They have a legit issue with steel core ammo. I have been at ranges where Norinco AK steel round tore up their backstops. Some penetrated and hit the homes behind the range. Its a serious safety issue. One round may not penetrate but several in a row will. They torched out the damaged backstops for everyone to see and had them on display. They could get sued and it may close the business. Respect their rules or dont go.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:27:06 PM EDT
Its not exactly what is commonly referred to as steel core.


My PSL shoots real steel core but if they say it won;t be shot in there range then you might want to find another range.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:28:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 8:29:09 PM EDT by ARDOC]

Originally Posted By FredM:
Its not exactly what is commonly referred to as steel core.


My PSL shoots real steel core but if they say it won;t be shot in there range then you might want to find another range.



Dont know who makes your M855. But it DOES CONTAIN A STEEL CORE. It doesnt contain a tungsten penetrator core like the military has but it does have a mild steel core. It will eventually defeat a backstop.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:29:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
.... I explained to her that they were not tracers, and told her exactly the type of ammo it was. .... She said that it must have a steel core .... I really don't think that is the case. .... And if I knew more about ammo, then I probably could have explained things better and dealt with the situation appropriately, ....



How could you tell her EXACLTY what type of ammo it was if

a) You didn't even know M855 has a mild steel penetrator.

and
b) You need to know more about ammo.

Me thinks you need to spend more time on the Technical side and less time in GD.

Particularly read The Ammo Oracle to get up to speed on 5.56 ammuntion.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:29:20 PM EDT
Well, considering that the SS109 bullet used in M855 DOES have a chunk of steel in it she might have been "correct". Now, my experience, and that of others, is that SS109 does no more damage on steel targets (or backstops) than M193. That steel penetrator on the tip has no effect whatsoever at close ranges, and only comes into play at longer ranges (beyond 300 yds). But a lot of people on ranges still ban it, because of the "extra damage the steel tip will cause blah blah blah".

But if their policy stated beforehand that they do not allow ammo with steel in it, then she was right. Although the steel insert weights only 7gr, it's surprisigly large (it's still tiny, but I expected something smaller).
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:29:46 PM EDT
BPS Outdoor World in Texas forbids all FMJ's regardless of metal content.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:30:37 PM EDT
In the ultimate analysis, its their range, if you dont like it dont go.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:31:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 8:32:44 PM EDT by FredM]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Originally Posted By FredM:
Its not exactly what is commonly referred to as steel core.


My PSL shoots real steel core but if they say it won;t be shot in there range then you might want to find another range.



Dont know who makes your M855. But it DOES CONTAIN A STEEL CORE. It doesnt contain a tungsten penetrator core like the military has but it does have a mild steel core. It will eventually defeat a backstop.




Hmmm really?



The SS-109 bullet uses a "compound" core, with a lead base topped by a steel penetrator, all covered in a gilding-metal (copper alloy) jacket.
]



ETA haha edited huh?
To fast for me
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:33:26 PM EDT
So you make my point.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:36:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
So you make my point.



Not unless your point is that I was right.


I said


Its not exactly what is commonly referred to as steel core.
\

You said I was wrong.


"Compound Core does not = Steel Core
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:36:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
She was correct and you were not. They have a legit issue with steel core ammo. I have been at ranges where Norinco AK steel round tore up their backstops. Some penetrated and hit the homes behind the range. Its a serious safety issue. One round may not penetrate but several in a row will. They torched out the damaged backstops for everyone to see and had them on display. They could get sued and it may close the business. Respect their rules or dont go.



There is a big difference between the Norinco steel core and M855. The amount of steel in M855 (SS109) is very small, only 7 gr out of 62gr for the whole bullet. Most of the core is still lead. The Norinco ammo has a much greater amount of steel in it, and therefore more potential for damage to backstops.

If anything, some people in this board have reported that M855 does LESS damage to steel targets than M193, due to the reduced velocity of M855 (velocity is the true damaging agent to steel targets). My personal experience has shown me that they look about the same, but I usually shoot at fairly mild steel (railroad plates).
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:38:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 8:43:43 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
.... I explained to her that they were not tracers, and told her exactly the type of ammo it was. .... She said that it must have a steel core .... I really don't think that is the case. .... And if I knew more about ammo, then I probably could have explained things better and dealt with the situation appropriately, ....



How could you tell her EXACLTY what type of ammo it was if

a) You didn't even know M855 has a mild steel penetrator.



I told her it was "Lake City M855 62 gr bulk pack ammo". I don't know what more I could have said to be more EXACT.

The reason I wasn't sure if she knew what she was talking about was because:
a) She immediately called them "tracers" when I took them out.
b) She never heard of Lake City ammo nor did she know what M855 was.

Yes, I can use some brushing up on my ammo knowledge. Normally I go to an outdoor range, but they were closed today and I know that this was the only other range around here that allowed high power rifles. Also, I had been to this range before with this same ammo and nobody had asked me to inspect my ammo before. So I just wasn't sure, that's all.

I don't have a problem with range rules. I just thought the lady wasn't sure about what she was talking about, and obviously I didn't know much either. I just realize now that there is different types of ammo I may use at different ranges. Relax folks.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:42:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
So you make my point.



Not unless your point is that I was right.


I said


Its not exactly what is commonly referred to as steel core.
\

You said I was wrong.


"Compound Core does not = Steel Core



I said it contains a penetrator core = steel core and it does. It is commonly known to to contain a mild steel penetrator.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:42:29 PM EDT
lots of ammo also had bi-metal jackets... a magnet will stick to it... and it will go right through ar440 steel.

Many ranges with steel targets or backstops will not let you shoot steel core, steel jacket, bi-metal, tungsten, etc.

Might seem chippy, but the loss of one or two targets costing $500+ will cause a rage to implement such a policy.

Look around at the holes in the walls and roof of an indoor range... now think about that with the projectiles staying intact and leaving the building...
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:47:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
So you make my point.



Not unless your point is that I was right.


I said


Its not exactly what is commonly referred to as steel core.
\

You said I was wrong.


"Compound Core does not = Steel Core



I said it contains a penetrator core = steel core and it does. It is commonly known to to contain a mild steel penetrator.



No its not steel core. It contains a small amount of steel at the tip. Its not a penetrator core its a tip!

Thats my story and I'm stickin to it.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:49:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2005 8:55:32 PM EDT by niceguymr]
Just curious...

Suppose nobody would have stopped to inspect my ammo and I fired it and the bullets escaped the building and caused damage or even worse (say personal injury or death) outside. Who would be responsible?

ETA: The safety procedures at the store were a little shoddy to begin with. You're supposed to check in your weapons at the fron, unloaded. Then they put trigger locks on all of them and send you up to the range.

The guy who checked me in, open my rifle bag, and proceded to put a lock on the trigger of my AR without even checking if it was loaded or anything. He didn't even notice my other 2 handguns in the same case and left them without locks. If my AR had been loaded and chambered, there quite possibly could have been a serious accident. Fortunately, I knew it wasn't loaded, so I wasn't worried at that time.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 9:06:00 PM EDT
All of the M855 Green Tips I've ever shot had a steel core in them...a little cone shaped thing. We'd find them all over the place in the butts at the range.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 9:35:59 PM EDT

I think her assumption with them being tracers is with the painted tips.

Considering much chicom tracer IS green, this is understandable and she probably doesn't know the difference, although, she should really.

She was most likely just covering her ass / lack of knowledge, by assuming all painted tip ammo is bad juju for the range backstop(s)


no outdoor range near you ?

Link Posted: 5/23/2005 9:53:21 PM EDT
Mess with her and paint rainbow stripes on some of your ammo.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 9:56:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JB69:
no outdoor range near you ?




Closed on mondays!
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 9:57:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Just curious...

Suppose nobody would have stopped to inspect my ammo and I fired it and the bullets escaped the building and caused damage or even worse (say personal injury or death) outside. Who would be responsible?

ETA: The safety procedures at the store were a little shoddy to begin with. You're supposed to check in your weapons at the fron, unloaded. Then they put trigger locks on all of them and send you up to the range.

The guy who checked me in, open my rifle bag, and proceded to put a lock on the trigger of my AR without even checking if it was loaded or anything. He didn't even notice my other 2 handguns in the same case and left them without locks. If my AR had been loaded and chambered, there quite possibly could have been a serious accident. Fortunately, I knew it wasn't loaded, so I wasn't worried at that time.



You pull the trigger, it's YOUR responsibility.

-luke
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 10:16:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zukem:

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Just curious...

Suppose nobody would have stopped to inspect my ammo and I fired it and the bullets escaped the building and caused damage or even worse (say personal injury or death) outside. Who would be responsible?



You pull the trigger, it's YOUR responsibility.

-luke




In a civil suit, both of your asses would be on the line!

Criminal law, I'm not sure. If you used "standard" ammunition, I would think that an escaped round would be their fault, since their backstop obviously didn't do its job. But if YOU are the one who brought more agressive ammunition (that a D.A. coudl argue was a penetrator/armor piercing) then I suppose it could be negligence on your part.


I sure wouldn't want to find out! There's an indoor range here that has improved their backstop, and now allows .223 ARs - but I only ever use my SBR there (with the reduced muzzle velocity that the shorter barrel entails)
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 10:28:16 PM EDT
reasons to not allow steel at indoor ranges..

backstop fatigue.. homogenious cold rolled armor is not cheap..nor is it cheap to fix.(and it needs fixing even under regular circumstances)
fire hazards.. a small threat, is still a threat.
back splash. steel does not splatter like lead

i would consider their igorance paranoia as well. not everyone reads ar-15.com and ammo orracle. People also lie to range officers on a regular basis, so they only do what they believe is right, especially if it involves safety of customers. I always erred on the side of caution. If i did not know what it was.. i said no.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 2:41:52 AM EDT
Even if it doesn't penetrate, if it craters the surface it's bad ju-ju. Craters cause lead bullets to do funny things up to and including ricocheting in one piece where if they had hit a non cratered plate at the same angle they would simply splatter. Spect that the craters can cause jacketed bullets to do funny things.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:21:46 AM EDT
Common practice at many ranges.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:25:54 AM EDT
Damn, I don't think I want to shoot my AR indoors.
Link Posted: 5/24/2005 4:33:51 AM EDT
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