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Posted: 5/8/2004 6:11:02 AM EST
I am sick and tired of it. I almost puked listening to our Senate last night. Now I am even hearing these comments here. They are "Not Soldiers", they broke the rules of the "Geneva Convention"????? WTF, over? I was under the impression that this was a war on Terrorism and that this board was comprised of patriots.......guess it is time for a reality check, huh?

I just want those of you who are condeming these soldiers to know this: Unless you have carried a gun in this shithole of a country (where you can't even use the water to brush your teeth with), tried to help these peop----excuse me, these FUCKING TERRORISTS, lived day in and day out in fear for your life over here, seen your buddies or fellow countrymen blown to hell and their charred remains hung from a bridge, then you need to STFU.

No matter what these armchair soldiers and generals back home think, I stand behind the soldiers, right or wrong. I didn't no the Geneva Convention applied to Terrorists. Also, before you jump on my ass, you have your right to your own opinion, just as I have the right to voice the opinion I just posted. I just thought you may want to hear it from someone over here. My apologies in advance if you are offended by this thread.


I have seen the prison with my own eyes. I know how much incoming that place takes daily, just as every member of the Coalition does. Those guys have it tough. I am not judging them. Until I have been in thier shoes, I won't. What I am saying is that nobody sitting in a 3 piece suit with VIP accomodations, living a much better life than these young soldiers; and sure as hell some civilian that has never worn a uniform in combat has the right to pass judgment. Period

Thanks for letting me rant......let the flames begin.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:15:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
I am sick and tired of it. I almost puked listening to our Senate last night. Now I am even hearing these comments here. They are "Not Soldiers", they broke the rules of the "Geneva Convention"????? WTF, over? I was under the impression that this was a war on Terrorism and that this board was comprised of patriots.......guess it is time for a reality check, huh?

I just want those of you who are condeming these soldiers to know this: Unless you have carried a gun in this shithole of a country (where you can't even use the water to brush your teeth with), tried to help these peop----excuse me, these FUCKING TERRORISTS, lived day in and day out in fear for your life over here, seen your buddies or fellow countrymen blown to hell and their charred remains hung from a bridge, then you need to STFU.

No matter what these armchair soldiers and generals back home think, I stand behind the soldiers, right or wrong. I didn't no the Geneva Convention applied to Terrorists. Also, before you jump on my ass, you have your right to your own opinion, just as I have the right to voice the opinion I just posted. I just thought you may want to hear it from someone over here. My apologies in advance if you are offended by this thread.


I have seen the prison with my own eyes. I know how much incoming that place takes daily, just as every member of the Coalition does. Those guys have it tough. I am not judging them. Until I have been in thier shoes, I won't. What I am saying is that nobody sitting in a 3 piece suit with VIP accomodations, living a much better life than these young soldiers; and sure as hell some civilian that has never worn a uniform in combat has the right to pass judgment. Period

Thanks for letting me rant......let the flames begin.




If I'm reading this correctly your actually defending this morons? As a ex Vet, I for one hope they lock these ass wipes up and throw away the key. They did a grave misjustice to America and any soldier who has ever been captured. My opinion: Simple minded people who had their first taste of power, and abused it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:18:57 AM EST
Soldiers do not rape boys and murder prisonors, criminals do. To attempt to justify what happened there is shamefull.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:20:32 AM EST

Unless you have carried a gun in this shithole of a country


Well, she did, and this is what she has to say about it.


Army Specialist Sabrina D. Harman with a young Iraqi boy in Al Hillah., Iraq. Harman is among those charged with abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison.

There were no rules, by her account, and there was little training. But the mission was clear. Spec. Sabrina D. Harman, a military police officer who has been charged with abusing detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, said she was assigned to break down prisoners for interrogation.

"They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed," Harman said by e-mail this week from Baghdad. "The job of the MP was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk."

Harman, one of seven military police reservists charged in the abuse of detainees at the prison, is the second of those soldiers to speak publicly about her time at Abu Ghraib, and her comments echo findings of the Army's investigation into prisoner abuse there. That probe documented the maltreatment of detainees and found the prison was chaotically run, that there were no apparent rules governing interrogations and that Harman's military police unit was ill trained for the job it was asked to perform.

Harman, a 26-year-old Army reservist from Alexandria, said members of her military police unit took direction from Army military intelligence officers, from CIA operatives and from civilian contractors who conducted interrogations. She did not discuss abusive treatment of prisoners or clarify who specifically ordered such treatment, and she referred questions about the charges against her to her attorney, who declined to comment.

Her face is now famous as belonging to one of two soldiers posing in the widely published photograph of naked Iraqi detainees stacked in a pyramid. The picture is one of several that have inflamed the Arab world and brought condemnation from President Bush and other U.S. political and military leaders.

Harman is accused by the Army of taking photographs of that pyramid and photographing and videotaping detainees who were ordered to strip and masturbate in front of other prisoners and soldiers, according to a charge sheet obtained by The Washington Post. She is also charged with photographing a corpse and then posing for a picture with it; with striking several prisoners by jumping on them as they lay in a pile; with writing "rapeist" on a prisoner's leg; and with attaching wires to a prisoner's hands while he stood on a box with his head covered. She told him he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box, the documents said.

Private employees as interrogators
In her e-mails, Harman said detainees would be handed over to her military police unit by Army intelligence officers, by CIA operatives or by the contractors. The Army probe into Abu Ghraib said the U.S. government used employees of private companies as interrogators and interpreters along with intelligence officers. Two of the civilian contractors are under investigation in connection with the abuses.

Prisoners were stripped, searched and then "made to stand or kneel for hours," Harman said. Sometimes they were forced to stand on boxes or hold boxes or to exercise to tire them out, she said.

"The person who brought them in would set the standards on whether or not to 'be nice,' " she said. "If the prisoner was cooperating, then the prisoner was able to keep his jumpsuit, mattress, and was allowed cigarettes on request or even hot food. But if the prisoner didn't give what they wanted, it was all taken away until [military intelligence] decided. Sleep, food, clothes, mattresses, cigarettes were all privileges and were granted with information received."

She said the prison had no standard operating procedures and on Tier 1A, where suspected insurgents were held, Army and other intelligence officers "made the rules as they went."

Harman joined the Army as a reservist in 2001, after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. She was assigned to the 372nd, based in Cresaptown, Md. The company was called up for duty in February of last year and deployed to Fort Lee, Va., for three months before heading to Iraq.

Harman, an assistant manager at a Papa John's Pizza in Fairfax County before being sent to Iraq, said the company received additional training at Fort Lee, but it was for "combat support, not I/R," the military term for internment and resettlement. She said she was never schooled in the Geneva Conventions' rules on prisoner treatment.

"The Geneva Convention was never posted, and none of us remember taking a class to review it," Harman said. "The first time reading it was two months after being charged. I read the entire thing highlighting everything the prison is in violation of. There's a lot."

'They're passing the buck'
In the Army report on conditions at the prison, Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba said that "soldiers were poorly prepared and untrained to conduct I/R operations prior to deployment, at the mobilization site, upon arrival in theater and throughout their mission."

The Army has launched several investigations into the abuse and has notified seven officers and sergeants that they will receive letters of reprimand or admonishment that could end their careers.

Harman is charged with conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, making a false statement, and assault. She faces an Article 32 hearing tentatively set in June, the military equivalent of a preliminary hearing to determine whether there is enough evidence to convene a court-martial.

In his investigation, Taguba used a portion of Harman's sworn statement to conclude that prisoners had been abused. Harman "stated . . . regarding the incident where a detainee was placed on box with wires attached to his fingers, toes, and penis, 'that her job was to keep detainees awake.' "

The other soldiers charged with abuse are Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick II, Sgt. Javal S. Davis, Cpl. Charles A. Graner Jr., Spec. Jeremy C. Sivits, Spec. Megan M. Ambuhl and Pfc. Lynndie R. England. England was charged yesterday.

Harman's mother, Robin Harman, said her daughter would never hurt anyone.

"She has this . . . attitude that she is going to save the world," said Robin Harman, who lives in Northern Virginia. "She got over there and got an eye-opener. You don't put unqualified kids in that situation."

Yesterday, as Robin Harman watched Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld testify, she called her daughter a "scapegoat." "They're passing the buck, putting it all on the little kids," she said. "That's what makes me so mad."

Harman took many photographs while in Iraq, her family said.

Evidence of improper conditions
Among hundreds of digital pictures passed around her MP unit -- and obtained by The Post -- is one taken before the soldiers got to Abu Ghraib in October. In it, Harman is smiling, crouching slightly, a thumb up, and leaning toward a blackened, decaying corpse with long fingers and a gaping mouth.

The photo was taken at a makeshift combat morgue in Al Hillah, her family said, citing letters that Harman sent with the picture.

Sabrina Harman grew up around photographs of dead people, her family explained. Her father was a homicide detective, and her mother was a forensics buff. Robin Harman said her husband often brought home crime-scene photographs for the family to "profile."

"She has been looking at autopsies and crime-scene pictures since she was a kid," her mother said. "At 7 or 8, she could spot things I'd miss."

Shortly after Harman got to Abu Ghraib in October, her mother said, she began to take and collect pictures as evidence of the improper conditions.

Robin Harman said when her daughter told her what she was doing, she ordered her to stop. "We got into an argument about it at 4 a.m.," Robin Harman said. "Sabrina said she had to prove this. I told her to bring the pictures home, hide them and stay out of it."

Sabrina Harman brought the photographs home to Virginia in mid-November during a two-week leave. An Army investigator showed up on Jan. 16 and took a CD of photos and Harman's laptop computer, her roommate said.

In February, the Army moved Harman to Camp Victory, a base of trailers and tents near Baghdad's airport. Her weapon was confiscated, but she is not in confinement. She spends her days sweeping streets and planting flowers, her family said.

Robin Harman said her daughter had dreamed of following her father into a career as a homicide detective. Now she does not want to have anything to do with law enforcement, Robin Harman said.

"She just moved out two years ago," Robin Harman said. "She has no clue what people are really like. She thinks everyone is good."

Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:21:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 6:27:27 AM EST by Mr_Fabulous]
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4925942/



Graham, a veteran of the House Judiciary Clinton impeachment hearings in 1998, had his sound bites honed to a sharp, quotable edge: “I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.”

A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, “We’re talking about rape and murder here, we’re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.”



http://www.drudgereport.com/

But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them “hard to believe.”

“There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “... It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.”

Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:23:42 AM EST
No, I am not defending them, I am just not passing judgement on them. What I am saying is that this is no different than anything else that has gone on. This shit shouldn't even be on the news. It should have been handled in house. What I am asking is how in the hell can someone judge these guys without haveing actuallly been here and seen the atrocities they have done to us.

That is the point I am trying to get across.

JH94
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:28:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mr_Fabulous:
Soldiers do not rape boys and murder prisonors, criminals do. To attempt to justify what happened there is shamefull.





The remnants of the Clinton military perhaps?
AB
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:34:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 6:36:40 AM EST by vito113]
So what are we saying here?

Spec. Sabrina D. Harman, a military police officer, is claiming in her 'defence' she knew nothing about the Geneva Convention, she also seems to have zero knowledge of the UCMJ.

Biggest worry I have about this whole shitfest is this,

Supposing some GI got picked up on a charge by one of these MP's… drunk or whatever. These f**kwits would probably beat him and abuse him too because nobody told them not to. Military Police have a lot of authority over the rest of the Army, they are supposed to enforce discipline… that's their job. Would you, if you were serving in the Military, want to be liable to arrest and detention by these idiots?

Andy
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:36:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
What I am asking is how in the hell can someone judge these guys without haveing actuallly been here and seen the atrocities they have done to us.

JH94



These were not combat soldiers and the pictures of their actions explain what happened very clearly.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:36:46 AM EST
Vito,

You bring up a good point. Do you think the situation that these guys were in induced this behavior? I do.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:38:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 6:40:04 AM EST by JarHead94]

These were not combat soldiers and the pictures of their actions explain what happened very clearly.


They recieve 20 to 90 incoming mortar/rocket rounds a day and you don't call that combat? Who the hell are you......John J. Rambo?
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:41:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By albob:

Originally Posted By Mr_Fabulous:
Soldiers do not rape boys and murder prisonors, criminals do. To attempt to justify what happened there is shamefull.





The remnants of the Clinton military perhaps?
AB



Why would you post a statement like that?
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:42:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By JarHead94:

These were not combat soldiers and the pictures of their actions explain what happened very clearly.


They recieve 20 to 90 incoming mortar/rocket rounds a day and you don't call that combat? Who the hell are you......John J. Rambo?



Give me a break.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:45:49 AM EST



Give me a break.



Well, its OK not to believe me. But I speak the truth.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 6:57:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 6:58:11 AM EST by Epsilon]
OKay. Lets look at how modern Russia handles terrorists. Remember when terrorists held the theater in Moscow hostage? Theyre reports that the anti terrorist group that stormed the theater took no prisoners, that if they saw ANY terrorist they put a bullet in his head no questions asked. But what about their "Geneva Convention" rights? Where was the outcry?

Yes, what those soldiers did was stupid. But those terrorist deserve to be dead in the first place.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:07:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 7:09:06 AM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
Vito,

You bring up a good point. Do you think the situation that these guys were in induced this behavior? I do.



Probably, from what I have seen and read, what we have here is a group of what we call "Weekend Warriors" here in Britain. Part-timers who join the reserves etc for a bit of 'excitement' and usually don't expect to actually end up in a shooting war. The training is basic, but as long as they just do 'wargames' once a year and stuff, not a problem.

What seems to have happened here is that the Command has posted these people into a postion without fully grasping or realising the very limited training they may have had, like I say, not a problem on manouveres with Umpires to call 'time out' if they get it wrong. Then, what seems to have happened is that , CIA or whatever say, 'soften up these prisoners' little realising that they are not talking to 'real' MP's who understand what is meant. ie Sleep depivation, shouting at them and stuff. These MP's seem, with no clear training to guide them, to have fallen back on their experience of High School hazing for guidance, and if you look at what appears to be shown in the pictures, that is exactly what we see.

When I was with the Military, I went on an escape and evasion course, and as part of it we were subjected to training in resisting interogation. They chased our asses round, and made us go through hell, but nothing of this nature was used. Sure, I had to run round in the buff, was not fed and was cold and dead tired, but 'man pyramids' were not part of the process. The process was designed to make you dog tired and break down your resistance to questioning so you would sing like a Canary so you would be allowed to sleep, not embarress you and make you mad at them.

It's interesting to note from history, that most shooting and abuse of POW's was usually at the hands of second line troops. The front line combat troops would often kill you outriight as you tried to surrender, but if you did get them to accept your surrender they usually treated you decently. The REMF's however, not having been in direct combat, often tried to be 'macho' with POW's and brutalised them.

Just my thoughts…

Andy
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:08:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 7:11:27 AM EST by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By JarHead94:


I just want those of you who are condeming these soldiers to know this: Unless you have carried a gun in this shithole of a country (where you can't even use the water to brush your teeth with), tried to help these peop----excuse me, these FUCKING TERRORISTS, lived day in and day out in fear for your life over here, seen your buddies or fellow countrymen blown to hell and their charred remains hung from a bridge, then you need to STFU.
.



I totally agree. Since I'm a civillian I have no rights to criticize the military whatsoever. I certainly don't have the right to criticize the ones who beat and raped prisoners. Forcing prisoners to masterbate in public seems bad to me, but again I'm a civillian and can't judge such things. Those military people are so far above me due to their status as military people that I can't judge them.

My question is this though? Why do we still allow us pathetic lowly civillians to vote or own guns? It just makes me sick to think that pathetic untrained scum like us, who are neither powerful military men or police officers have rights in this country.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:12:41 AM EST
Of course if I did have the right to criticize powerful military people, I'd say that the soldiers involved with this incident are some sick scum who should be put on trial and sentenced like the criminals who they are.

I'd also say that military people like JarHead who try to cover up for them are a disgrace to this country.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:13:11 AM EST

My question is this though? Why do we still allow us pathetic lowly civillians to vote or own guns? It just makes me sick


No too sure I follow you there, SouthernShark.......please explain. I am not trying to put these soldiers on a pedestal, I don't think they would feel superior to anyone. I just think if there was no such animal as CNN, then this would be much lower key.

JH94
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:16:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
I am sick and tired of it. I almost puked listening to our Senate last night. Now I am even hearing these comments here. They are "Not Soldiers", they broke the rules of the "Geneva Convention"????? WTF, over? I was under the impression that this was a war on Terrorism and that this board was comprised of patriots.......guess it is time for a reality check, huh?

I just want those of you who are condeming these soldiers to know this: Unless you have carried a gun in this shithole of a country (where you can't even use the water to brush your teeth with), tried to help these peop----excuse me, these FUCKING TERRORISTS, lived day in and day out in fear for your life over here, seen your buddies or fellow countrymen blown to hell and their charred remains hung from a bridge, then you need to STFU.

No matter what these armchair soldiers and generals back home think, I stand behind the soldiers, right or wrong. I didn't no the Geneva Convention applied to Terrorists. Also, before you jump on my ass, you have your right to your own opinion, just as I have the right to voice the opinion I just posted. I just thought you may want to hear it from someone over here. My apologies in advance if you are offended by this thread.


I have seen the prison with my own eyes. I know how much incoming that place takes daily, just as every member of the Coalition does. Those guys have it tough. I am not judging them. Until I have been in thier shoes, I won't. What I am saying is that nobody sitting in a 3 piece suit with VIP accomodations, living a much better life than these young soldiers; and sure as hell some civilian that has never worn a uniform in combat has the right to pass judgment. Period

Thanks for letting me rant......let the flames begin.




If I'm reading this correctly your actually defending this morons? As a ex Vet, I for one hope they lock these ass wipes up and throw away the key. They did a grave misjustice to America and any soldier who has ever been captured. My opinion: Simple minded people who had their first taste of power, and abused it.



Well ok that is your opinion, mine as a ex vet is that it is no big deal, they did no big offense and you all that claim they did are just overly sensitive people. IMO
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:20:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
They recieve 20 to 90 incoming mortar/rocket rounds a day



excuse me for being ignorant of the situation but why can't this be stopped
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:23:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By: SouthernSHark
I'd also say that military people like JarHead who try to cover up for them are a disgrace to this country.



That, sir, is your opinion, and your are welcome to it. Alot of my friends have died to make sure you keep that right. BTW, I am not in the military anymore, nor have I claimed to still be in. I am a civillian contractor for the DOD here.


Originally Posted By Cyanide
Well ok that is your opinion, mine as a ex vet is that it is no big deal, they did no big offense and you all that claim they did are just overly sensitive people. IMO



My feelings exactly........maybe one someone back home would like to come over and go out on a convoy and see how friendly they treat us here.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:32:05 AM EST
I pose an interesting question for those so quick to comdemn these alleged acts: Would you approve of treating the enemy Terrorists this way if it could have stopped September 11th from happening ?
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:41:15 AM EST
Victory is the only thing that will stop the inhuman acts of war. We might keep these incidents down by shining a bright light on them but they will still happen until the day we leave. You have to live with the fact that our actions in this vein will be relatively few in comparison to others. That and the fact that others cannot even undertake a difficult task such as this. They couldn't afford it and don't have the resources.

What's most eerie about this whole thing is the silence of the leaders of Arab countries. Wonder why?

The arab in the street and the media are complaining but in some ways not as much as here in the US.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:44:36 AM EST
Absolute BULLSHIT!
I haven't been to Iraq, but that doesn't negate the things I've learned in 15 years of service.
We agree to the rules and then, because things get tough, you cry "But, but, WE'RE AT WAR!!!"
The conventions, rules, regulations and LAWS are there for a reason. They were written exactly for situations like this and now we're enforcing them. PERIOD!

If good order and military discipline don't suit you, there are other careers.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:47:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By SouthernShark:

Originally Posted By JarHead94:


I just want those of you who are condeming these soldiers to know this: Unless you have carried a gun in this shithole of a country (where you can't even use the water to brush your teeth with), tried to help these peop----excuse me, these FUCKING TERRORISTS, lived day in and day out in fear for your life over here, seen your buddies or fellow countrymen blown to hell and their charred remains hung from a bridge, then you need to STFU.
.



I totally agree. Since I'm a civillian I have no rights to criticize the military whatsoever. I certainly don't have the right to criticize the ones who beat and raped prisoners. Forcing prisoners to masterbate in public seems bad to me, but again I'm a civillian and can't judge such things. Those military people are so far above me due to their status as military people that I can't judge them.

My question is this though? Why do we still allow us pathetic lowly civillians to vote or own guns? It just makes me sick to think that pathetic untrained scum like us, who are neither powerful military men or police officers have rights in this country.



What?
You don't think you have the right to an opinion about OUR military. It's still OUR country, ALL OF OURS. The military ultimately comes under civilian authority, and that's for a reason. What else don't you feel qualified to have an opinion about? Were you ever a cop? No? Well, there goest that opinion. You probably weren't a garbage collector either, but refusing to have an opinion about that is stupid.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:50:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:
So what are we saying here?

Spec. Sabrina D. Harman, a military police officer, is claiming in her 'defence' she knew nothing about the Geneva Convention, she also seems to have zero knowledge of the UCMJ.

Biggest worry I have about this whole shitfest is this,

Supposing some GI got picked up on a charge by one of these MP's… drunk or whatever. These f**kwits would probably beat him and abuse him too because nobody told them not to. Military Police have a lot of authority over the rest of the Army, they are supposed to enforce discipline… that's their job. Would you, if you were serving in the Military, want to be liable to arrest and detention by these idiots?

Andy



Everything in this situation stems from the Lack of LEADERSHIP (pretty much none) that this Brigade had! Proper Leadership up the Chain of Command in the Brigade would have insured everyone was briefed or trained in the following and Signed that they understand:

1. Briefed by a preferrably a JAG Officer on the Geneva Convention especially the Articles dealing with prisoners.
2. Briefed on the UCMJ!(I remember haveing a brief every year on the UCMJ)
3. Briefed on AR-190- Enemy Prisoners of War, Retained Personnel, Civilian Internees and Other Detainees
4. Briefed on other Army Regs and Field Manuals that pertain!

But none of this happened due to incompetant Leadership starting at the Brigade Commander on down. Still, any real soldier would have recognized that the conduct happenning in that prison was wrong regardless if they were trained/briefed, fortunately we had a few soldiers with common sense who said NO!

Also had the troops been trained and briefed properly (signatures stateing they understood), these POS troops could be hit with the full force of the UCMJ (slam, bam, thankyou mame)!!!
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 7:59:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mr_Fabulous:
Soldiers do not rape boys and murder prisonors, criminals do. To attempt to justify what happened there is shamefull.



Worthless cocksuckers are criminals wearing the uniform of my beloved military.



5sub
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:03:25 AM EST
Having been in Iraq I guess I'm qualified to speak.
What was shown in the pictures does not amount to torture in my eyes. I do not know if the detainees were taken as EPW's or just anti-coalition streetfighters without the protection of the Geneva Convention.
What strikes me is that these soldiers are reported as being worried about what was going on, yet they continued to be involved. Maybe after one of these sessions they should have asked somebody if what they were doing was right.
I won't judge their actions only because I don't know the whole story. However, if they are guilty they should be punished under the UCMJ along with everyone in the chain of command who allowed this activity to go on.

Just some humble thoughts from an 11B who has had too many run-ins with power mad MP's.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:10:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 8:19:25 AM EST by KC-130 FLT ENG]
I would like to add my bit here too....

After seeing the photos, I'm not too upset. Hell, if you have been to SERE training you've endured similar "abuse". Let's not forget these prisoners were not run of the mill Iraqi citizens scooped up off the street, they were the hard case insurgents that did have potential information that could be used to save American lives.

The troops who took and posed in the pics were incredibly stupid. They really should have known better. But the pics don't outrage me at all really.

Look at what we've seen:

A trailer park bitch pointing and laughing at some dude's crank. That happens every saturday night here in the states. Hell it's prolly happened to half the Arfcom memebers at one time or another.

A pile of hooded naked guys. Sounds like a Robert Byrd birthday party to me...

Posing with a dead haji. Now that's a crime. I did that myself when I was a cop and got called to a gang shooting.

Being forced to simulate gay sex. I think a hardened fighter could get over that trauma.

Being led around on a leash by a chick. People pay for that shit. Hell we ought to send that guy a bill.

This is hardly cruel and sadistic. Stupid, not cruel and sadistic. Now ambushing a convoy bringing food to Falluja and hanging burnt and mutilated bodies up to the delight of a mob, that's cruel and sadistic.

Let's keep some perspective here.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:16:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By KC-130 FLT ENG:
This is hardly cruel and sadistic. Stupid, not cruel and sadistic. Now ambushing a convoy bringing food to Falluja and hanging burnt a mutilated bodies up to the delight of a mob, thta's cruel and sadistic.
Let's keep some perspective here.



Rumsfeld:
Apparently the worst is yet to come. There are lot more pictures and many investigations underway. . . If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe. Be on notice. . .
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:20:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
What's most eerie about this whole thing is the silence of the leaders of Arab countries. Wonder why?

The arab in the street and the media are complaining but in some ways not as much as here in the US.



Because the Arab Street knows that the prisoners who allowed themselves to be posed like that are complete pussies. And they hate pussies even more than they hate Jews.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:24:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
Because the Arab Street knows that the prisoners who allowed themselves to be posed like that are complete pussies.



"hard case insurgents" street-fighting pussies. Gotcha.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:34:20 AM EST


I don't condone what several of these soldiers did.
I also think that our soldiers/US contract/civilian people who were captured by the Iraqi, had it worse. And little or nothing says about it.

BTW, Geneva Convention is an over-used term. It seems like no one follows it, and the terrorists certainly don't have that term in their vocabulary.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:40:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:00:00 AM EST
start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=9&aid=D82E7LE80_story

WASHINGTON - Pentagon officials rejected an Army plan last year to send an experienced military lawyer - who is also a Republican member of Congress - to help oversee the unit blamed for prisoner abuse at the Abu Ghraib complex outside Baghdad.

That left the prison complex, which holds up to 7,000 Iraqis, without an onsite lawyer to guide interrogations and treatment of prisoners.

The top lawyer for the 800th Military Police Brigade, the Army unit in charge of detainees at Abu Ghraib, later came under fire in an Army report about the abuse for being ineffective and "unwilling to accept responsibility for any of his actions."

The rejected lawyer, Rep. Steve Buyer, R-Ind., and other experts say having had a lawyer at the prison might have prevented or at least mitigated the beatings, sexual humiliation and other abuse detailed in photographs and the Army probe.

"It's always good to have a lawyer around so you've got a conscience for the command and an opportunity to vet questions," said retired Army Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, who commanded an armored brigade during the 1991 Gulf War.

Pentagon officials confirmed there was no onsite lawyer at Abu Ghraib, but spokesmen for Army Secretary Les Brownlee and Pentagon personnel officials did not respond to repeated requests for comment Friday. Bryan Whitman, a spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, referred questions to the Army.

Buyer, a strong supporter of the Iraq war and a lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserves, had volunteered to go to Iraq shortly after the invasion in March 2003.

In a telephone interview Friday with The Associated Press, Buyer said military officials all the way up to the Joint Chiefs of Staff had approved his assignment to the 800th Military Police Brigade, which has handled Iraqi prisoners of war since the beginning of the conflict.

Pentagon personnel officials and Brownlee rejected the assignment, saying the Army could fill the requirement another way. Brownlee also wrote to Buyer that his high-profile status could bring danger to the troops around him.

Buyer said he objected to David Chu, the Pentagon's personnel chief, and Charles Abell, Chu's deputy.

"I expressed the importance of having a (lawyer) at the camp," Buyer said. "You have to ask, when you had a qualified officer, and the civilian leaders, Dr. Chu and the secretary of the Army, said no, who did you send in his place?"

Soldiers from the 800th MP Brigade have been accused not only of abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib but also detainees at the Camp Bucca POW facility near Basra in southern Iraq. The military also is investigating a dozen prisoner deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq, some of them in facilities run by the 800th Brigade.

Buyer served as a lawyer at a prisoner of war camp run by the 800th Brigade during the first Gulf War. His duties, Buyer said, included helping the International Committee of the Red Cross monitor conditions and ensuring guards followed international law such as the Geneva Conventions. He said he also questioned some Iraqis suspected of war crimes.

"The 800th MP Brigade performed exemplary service in the Gulf War," Buyer said. "There was no hint of any mistreatment or maltreatment of prisoners. It never happened. They had excellent leadership."

The investigation of Abu Ghraib by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba found serious problems with the brigade's leadership, including its commander, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski.

Taguba wrote that even after the abuse at Camp Bucca in May 2003, Karpinski did not give the unit proper training.

"I could find no evidence that BG Karpinski ever directed corrective training for her soldiers or ensured that MP soldiers throughout Iraq clearly understood the requirements of the Geneva Conventions relating to the treatment of detainees," Taguba wrote.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of the classified report this week.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know a lot of you have been expressing different opinions then what I have. Opinions also seem to be changing as more info comes out.

In another article I read, which I don't have handy, they claimed the interogation techniques used in Iraq, were imported from Gitmo. Noting that an MI 2 star was a proponent of pre-interogation softening.

Sec. Rumsfeld knew of the investigations, and didn't tell President Bush until after the abuse photos were publicily reported.

Sec. Rumsfeld is responsible for much of what is going on in Iraq.

There are also as many as 10 suspicious deaths at Abu Ghraib. One involves an Iraqi Lt General, who had been captured by a SEAL team. He died after several days of "interogation". An autopsy found multiple broken bones, and concluded the death was caused by a severe beating. The CIA claims he was "pre-beaten", the SEAL's say they didn't beat him. Who is more believable?
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:01:01 AM EST
Everyone knows what's going to happen.

The Enlisted people are going to get shit on and the Officers are going to get their retirement.

The most junior Enlisted person is the first one who is charged?
Give me a fucking break, the Commanding Officer or the Officer-in-Charge should be the first one in line.

Bet you 10 to 1 odds that Brigadier General Karpinski is going to get that 0-7 retirement pay every month while Private England is going to spend some time at Levenworth when this is all over.

Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:38:43 AM EST
Those responsible need to be tried and then we move on. What's the problem? No different than any other crime committed by a uniformed person. Thousands of military crimes are investigated and tried every year, this is no different.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:53:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By yakrat101:


Having been in Iraq I guess I'm qualified to speak.



However, if they are guilty they should be punished under the UCMJ along with everyone in the chain of command who allowed this activity to go on.




Read the word.

5sub
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:28:12 PM EST



The Iraqis follow the Geneva Convention word for word too don't they.

Was I the only one that saw the video of the three Japanese civilian hostages that the Iraqis threatened to burn alive if Japan didn’t withdraw their troops from Iraq or the video of the four Italian civilian hostages which later was revealed that one was executed, (shot in the back of the neck).

Link Posted: 5/8/2004 8:40:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2004 8:41:20 PM EST by eodtech2000]

Originally Posted By Dan01:


The Iraqis follow the Geneva Convention word for word too don't they.

Was I the only one that saw the video of the three Japanese civilian hostages that the Iraqis threatened to burn alive if Japan didn’t withdraw their troops from Iraq or the video of the four Italian civilian hostages which later was revealed that one was executed, (shot in the back of the neck).




Doesn't matter, they violated AR-190-8 Enemy Prisoners of War, Retained Personnel, Civilian Internees and Other Detainees


1–5. General protection policy
a. U.S. policy, relative to the treatment of EPW, CI and RP in
the custody of the U.S. Armed Forces, is as follows:
(1) All persons captured, detained, interned, or otherwise held in
U.S. Armed Forces custody during the course of conflict will be
given humanitarian care and treatment from the moment they fall
into the hands of U.S. forces until final release or repatriation.
(2) All persons taken into custody by U.S. forces will be provided
with the protections of the GPW until some other legal status
is determined by competent authority.
(3) The punishment of EPW, CI and RP known to have, or
suspected of having, committed serious offenses will be administered
IAW due process of law and under legally constituted authority
per the GPW, GC, the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the
Manual for Courts Martial.
(4) The inhumane treatment of EPW, CI, RP is prohibited and is
not justified by the stress of combat or with deep provocation.
Inhumane treatment is a serious and punishable violation under
international law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

b. All prisoners will receive humane treatment without regard to
race, nationality, religion, political opinion, sex, or other criteria.
The following acts are prohibited: murder, torture, corporal punishment,
mutilation, the taking of hostages, sensory deprivation, collective
punishments, execution without trial by proper authority, and all
cruel and degrading treatment.

c. All persons will be respected as human beings. They will be
protected against all acts of violence to include rape, forced prostitution,
assault and theft, insults, public curiosity, bodily injury, and
reprisals of any kind. They will not be subjected to medical or
scientific experiments. This list is not exclusive. EPW/RP are to be
protected from all threats or acts of violence.
d. Photographing, filming, and video taping of individual EPW,
CI and RP for other than internal Internment Facility administration
or intelligence/counterintelligence purposes is strictly prohibited. No
group, wide area or aerial photographs of EPW, CI and RP or
facilities will be taken unless approved by the senior Military Police

Link Posted: 5/9/2004 4:26:03 AM EST
My entire problem with this mess is that we held ourselves to a higher standard. Every fuckwit on TV was talking about how much better we would be, how much more organized, how improved and all that crap. We hire a bunch of ex-mental paitients for the CIA or some group to use for questioning these people and they go apeshit. Spc. Harmen says it clearly enough, they had no chain of command, whomever was quesioning whatever inmate set the standards for how they were treated. Someone had decided they should be stripped, humilated, starved, scared and abused in whatever fashion.

The idea that an entire wing of a prison could run like this and not a single senior NCO or officer could be questioned is insulting. They are shitting on every junior enlisted kid they can find and trying to call it good.

Yeah, they are fucking terrorists, yeah the russians treat them worse, they do it to themselves and all that crap applys. But, we had idiot after idiot on TV saying we would make it better, we would treat them better, we would improve life for all Iraqi's. We now get to look stupid because of this mess.

Blaming some 20y/o for this mess and trying to ignore the rest of those assholes should be insulting to any decent NCO.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 4:43:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
I am sick and tired of it. I almost puked listening to our Senate last night. Now I am even hearing these comments here. They are "Not Soldiers", they broke the rules of the "Geneva Convention"????? WTF, over? I was under the impression that this was a war on Terrorism and that this board was comprised of patriots.......guess it is time for a reality check, huh?
I just want those of you who are condeming these soldiers to know this: Unless you have carried a gun in this shithole of a country (where you can't even use the water to brush your teeth with), tried to help these peop----excuse me, these FUCKING TERRORISTS, lived day in and day out in fear for your life over here, seen your buddies or fellow countrymen blown to hell and their charred remains hung from a bridge, then you need to STFU.
No matter what these armchair soldiers and generals back home think, I stand behind the soldiers, right or wrong. I didn't no the Geneva Convention applied to Terrorists. Also, before you jump on my ass, you have your right to your own opinion, just as I have the right to voice the opinion I just posted. I just thought you may want to hear it from someone over here. My apologies in advance if you are offended by this thread.
I have seen the prison with my own eyes. I know how much incoming that place takes daily, just as every member of the Coalition does. Those guys have it tough. I am not judging them. Until I have been in thier shoes, I won't. What I am saying is that nobody sitting in a 3 piece suit with VIP accomodations, living a much better life than these young soldiers; and sure as hell some civilian that has never worn a uniform in combat has the right to pass judgment. Period
Thanks for letting me rant......let the flames begin.



Interesting view...err, rant. Keep ranting and I'll keep reading.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 4:59:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
What I am asking is how in the hell can someone judge these guys without haveing actuallly been here and seen the atrocities they have done to us.

That is the point I am trying to get across.

JH94



Anyone who went through boot camp got the basics of handling prisoners. It made it pretty clear you dont abuse them for sport or sexual kinks. I put in plenty of time in the gulf, including Desert Shield and Desert Storm. You dont even need training in laws of war to understand basic human rights.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 5:02:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By yakrat101:
Having been in Iraq I guess I'm qualified to speak.
What was shown in the pictures does not amount to torture in my eyes.



I agree with you. It's not toture. It is however sexual abuse.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 5:21:52 AM EST
In 1970 I had to visit a prisoner at the jail in Da Nang. He, along with about another 150 prisoners were being kept in Conex shipping containers. One small hole was cut in the door. Inside was a cot and a bucket. The containers were set out in an open field. The temperature that day was around 100 degrees outside the steel box.

As training officer in a BCT unit at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo. I was called to the PT field by one of our DI's, a black man. He told me this recruit, also a black man, had refused to do pushups. The recruit wasn't a bad kid, he had fallen in with some hardcases from Chicago who got him to do stupid things.

The kid refused my direct order so off to the stockade he went for 2 weeks. I had to pick him up on his release date. The stockade was built like a barn with a wide center aisle and cells lined up on either side. Each cell had a cot and sink and toilet and was about 8'x10'. He told me when he was brought in, he was ordered to strip and he refused so the MP returned with a high pressure hose and let him have it. He got the message and took his clothes off. They left him wet and naked. A few hours later he complained he hadn't been fed, so they returned with the hose, let him have it again and left him wet overnight, the temperature was about 50 degrees. The next day he complained about no food so he got the hose again. By lunch time he had gotten the message and kept his mouth shut. By the end of the week he had clothes, food and a new attitude.

He told me that if he ever was even about to do anything that would land him back in the stockade I should remind him of the consequences.

Now some here have made the point that the military should not be judged, and that is clearly wrong. But, the mind set is very different from what civilians have. Yes, some go to extremes and must be punished. Officers must be punished for allowing this to happen because poorly disciplined soldiers are the responsibility of their officers.

But when you place people in these types of situations you can't judge them from a civilian perspective, thats why we have the UCMJ - Uniform Code of Military Justice. Let the military do its job of prosecuting these soldier but lets keep the moralistic value judgements to a minimum as most civilians don't understand the mindset.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 5:51:47 AM EST
I agree that the pictures that have popped up and the stories of the soldiers there indicate unacceptable treatment of prisoners by members of our armed forces. I agree that those soldiers and portions of their leadership should be tried under the UCMJ. This is the Way Things Work. The cries by Teddybear Kennedy and the lot to flush everyone from Rumsfeld down are insane though. Election year pot-stirring by people whose idea of "personal accountability" only applies when it furthers The Party and happens to the other guy. We also can't look at this shit through rose colored, suburban tract eyes. POW's cannot expect the same treatment as a democrat's daughter picked up for cocaine, and Bagdhad aint Palm Beach. Perhaps someone can talk Ted into being the congressional guinea pig responsible for researching the psychological trauma associated with having jumper cables hooked to one's johnson. Tell him it'll get him votes with the electrician's union or some shit.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 6:28:02 AM EST
From what I get out of most of the post that are not "happy" with this is you are really upset about the rape and murder, even though some of you are also outraged by the naked piles and womens underwear and sch. The post that I read said the Iraqi gaurds were raping boys. And even so none of it has been proved and like I have said before I can not and will not judge the actions of others in lif threatening situations unless I am there to fully comprehend the gravity of the entire situation not just the view I may have gotten from some ill informed reporter while sitting in my overstuffed lazy boy or from Edward down at the local country club while drinking $100 a shot drinks.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:38:10 AM EST
I can't condone the alleged actions of the MPs and guards, but I'm not in their shoes and don't know what sort of pressure they've been under. I know for sure that if I were a guard and a prisoner were to give me enough shit, that I'd give some back to him at some point.

It's ludicrous in the extreme that the arabs are all up in arms about this, because they ALL routinely abuse THEIR prisoners, and to a much worse extent than anything that any of our troops has ever been accused of.

What, what's good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander? Bullshit. We MIGHT abuse a few prisoners, but those damned dirty arabs ROUTINTELY abuse THEIRS. So they need to shut the fuck up right now.

CJ
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 11:08:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2004 11:14:59 AM EST by QCMGR]

Originally Posted By Kar98:
"The Geneva Convention was never posted, and none of us remember taking a class to review it," Harman said. "The first time reading it was two months after being charged. I read the entire thing highlighting everything the prison is in violation of. There's a lot."



I call Bull sh-t on this. It was a common task 20 years ago and it still is.

www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/stp/21-1-smct/stp21_1.pdf

smct.armystudyguide.com/Skill_Level_1/index.html
smct.armystudyguide.com/Skill_Levels_2-4/index.html
smct.armystudyguide.com/Skill_Levels_2-4/181-105-2001.htm
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 11:45:21 AM EST
Accused Soldier's Dad Blames Leadership

May 9, 2004 02:50 PM EDT


HYNDMAN, Pa. - Yellow ribbons adorned the front porch Sunday at the home of the first U.S. soldier to face a court martial in connection with the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.

Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, 24, a member of the 372nd Military Police Company, will face court martial May 19 in Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Sunday in Iraq.

The family didn't answer their front door Sunday and wouldn't comment when reached by phone.

Earlier, his father, Daniel Sivits, said his son was trained as a truck mechanic, not a prison guard, and would have gotten in trouble had he not followed orders to photograph the abused prisoners.

"Apparently, he was told to take a picture and he did what he was told," Daniel Sivits told The Associated Press in an interview late last month. "He was just following instructions."

Sivits grew up in a military family and "knows how to follow instructions," his father said.

Neighbors said Sunday that Daniel Sivits is a veteran of the Army, Navy and Marine Corps, and is a member of the VFW.

Daniel Sivits, in an interview from April 30, said he thought the abuse scandal stemmed from a lack of leadership.

"All it is (is) lack of leadership, lack of instruction and lack of standard operating procedure and everyone at the top is covering their butts," Daniel Sivits said. "My only question is this: Where was the leadership?"

Jeremy Sivits was charged with conspiracy to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty for negligently failing to protect detainees from abuse and cruelty and maltreatment of detainees, Kimmitt said.

If convicted of all charges, he could face one year in prison, reduction in rank to private, forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay for a year, a fine or a bad conduct discharge, military officials said.

Sivits' hometown of Hyndman has about 1,000 people and is some 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. It's only about 30 miles from the field where United Airlines Flight 93 crashed on Sept. 11, 2001, as passengers fought with hijackers.

It's also close to the Quecreek Mine, where nine miners were trapped hundreds of feet below ground for three days in July 2002.

Mayor Dell Biller said Sunday that Sivits would do "a little devilish thing" once in a while when growing up but he was "a wonderful kid." Biller said he spoke on Saturday with the Sivits, who said they don't know where their son is.

"They have heard nothing since practically day one ... and it ain't right," Biller said. "I can't think this boy would have done something like this without being forced to."

"He wasn't that kind of a boy. I feel there was somebody else behind it," said Thomas V. Cunningham, a neighbor and a former mayor.


start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=D82F8N2G0_story
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