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Posted: 7/22/2002 10:13:13 AM EST
Ok, so i was shooting yesterday. I had put about 10 shots through it and all of a sudden "BOOM"! Thank god I was not injured in any way. The floorplate fell off the mag the explosion was so hard and i could not could not cycle the action back. The bottom of the bolt carrier was cracked off and i tried like a sonofabitch to get the bolt and carrier free but no dice. My Bushy's only 8 months old. At least 2000 rounds through it. I was (gasp) using Wolf, but I have never had a problem with it before. I keep it really clean too. You guys have any ideas?
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:14:57 AM EST
Did you find the round that did this? What did it look like? What is the head stamp?
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:16:00 AM EST
It's still jammed in the chamber.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:23:17 AM EST
Dang. Glad you are in one piece. I would imagine something like this makes you change your drawers. Geez. Please let us know what you find out.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:29:11 AM EST
[url]http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/troubleshootingfaqs.asp[/url] "Beware the dangers of CHEAP AMMO!... If you shoot enough cheap ammo, it'll happen to you. The rifle is just ticking along, then BAM! The bolt is stuck forward and the magazine blows down out of the rifle. Looking up into the mag. well, you see a crack in the bottom of the bolt carrier. You've just had a case head separation. If you are shooting reloads or surplus ammo, you're out of luck. If you have factory ammo, and the box the shells came in, you can write a letter or call the factory, and they will tell you what to do. We have seen case head failures from overloaded ammo, and from bad brass. There is almost no difference in the result, though. When the case head fails in an AR, the gases flow back into the action. They usually bend or break the extractor, flow along the extractor slot, and crack or break the bottom pad of the bolt carrier. The gases vent out mostly through the mag well, usually wrecking the magazine on the way out. Sometimes the bolt cracks, sometimes it doesn't. In extreme cases, it can crack or break the barrel extension. Many times the bolt catch will break off and the upper receiver will crack by the ejection port. Usually the lower will survive, but sometimes they crack somewhere at the top of the mag well, usually in the front. The front half of the case will remain stuck in the chamber. This is a sure sign of an ammunition failure. If the rifle had failed, the bolt lugs would all be sheared off, the stock would be blown off, the gun would probably be blown in half. We've never seen it happen, and we hope we never do."
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:31:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By PhatForrest: You guys have any ideas?
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Use all of the money you saved by buying Wolf ammo to fix your rifle and then start buying UMC .223
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:33:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By gardenWeasel:
Originally Posted By PhatForrest: You guys have any ideas?
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Use all of the money you saved by buying Wolf ammo to fix your rifle and then start buying UMC .223
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Penny wise, "round" foolish. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:34:11 AM EST
Glad you are not hurt! Send the whole thing to Bushmaster & have them assess the situation. That's my 2cents worth. Then go buy a new Bushmaster?!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:35:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By PhatForrest: I was (gasp) using Wolf, You guys have any ideas?
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ummm, no, i HAVE NO IDEA. perhaps aliens came down and when you were not looking,stuck a tiny bomb in your chamber.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:45:49 AM EST
Case head separation...now that sounds like serious shit! Glad you are ok. Let us know what the final damage report is.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:46:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:54:05 AM EST
sorry, man. It looks like you are fvcked. Perhaps you can save some of the parts... [grenade] I had something like that happen to my HK91 frankengun. The joys of learning how to build a rifle... (see tag line)
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:05:06 AM EST
That's scary as hell! I never shoot Wolf, but i do shoot IMI and SA surplus al the time. And out of my $1500 pre-ban as well as my post bushy. I may rethink that. Glad your OK, must have scared the crap out of you. When I shoot my FA stuff, I always say a little prayer that goes something like no squib, no squib, no squib, no squib, no squib!!!!!![peep]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:16:29 AM EST
No, YOU blew your gun up by using that shitty Russian crap. Jesus....buy a Porsche and run it on Kerosene.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:24:35 AM EST
Wolf Ammo? Ok, what if u use it in a Russian rifle? Is it really that shitty? Just wondering, cause I have, like 500 rounds sitting in an ammo box 7.62 x 39 ready to rock
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:25:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:28:05 AM EST
It's fine in an AK..just like Diesel filtered through an old pair of underwear is fine for a tractor...just don't run it in an AR!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:29:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By COZ_cal_45acp: Wolf Ammo? Ok, what if u use it in a Russian rifle? Is it really that shitty? Just wondering, cause I have, like 500 rounds sitting in an ammo box 7.62 x 39 ready to rock
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naw, it's all i shoot out of my AKs, but they were made for crap like that!!!!!!! i shot it ONCE out of a bushmaster. ONCE!!! didn't care for the wear on the extractor or lacquer in the chamber. don't shoot it out my ARs anymore.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:04:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By quietshoez:
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naw, it's all i shoot out of my AKs, but they were made for crap like that!!!!!!! i shot it ONCE out of a bushmaster. ONCE!!! didn't care for the wear on the extractor or lacquer in the chamber. don't shoot it out my ARs anymore.
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The lacquer build up is a myth. I heated up an empty case with a propane torch for about 30 seconds. I took a Q-tip and dragged in across the surface to see if it was tacky. It wasn't. I've shot thousands of rounds of Wolf through my Bushy with zero problems. It is slightly under powered than most .223 ammo, but have never heard of a catastrophic failure before. I like it. I shoot it.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:05:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By quietshoez: naw, it's all i shoot out of my AKs, but they were made for crap like that!!!!!!! i shot it ONCE out of a bushmaster. ONCE!!! didn't care for the wear on the extractor or lacquer in the chamber. don't shoot it out my ARs anymore.
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The lacquer build up is a myth. I heated up an empty case with a propane torch for about 30 seconds. I took a Q-tip and dragged in across the surface to see if it was tacky. It wasn't. I've shot thousands of rounds of Wolf through my Bushy with zero problems. It is slightly under powered than most .223 ammo, but have never heard of a catastrophic failure before. I like it. I shoot it.
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Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:12:45 PM EST
Wow. Glad you're OK... Seeing as this has happened to others before, I, an admited ammo negat, must ask the following: I have a reasonable supply of Selier & Bellot .223 ammo that I purchased about three years ago. Is this stuff any good? I had a NASTY experience with some Georgia Arms Canned Heat 9mm in my Beretta 92FS and DID NOT ENJOY the incident (The gun's fine...barely). After that, I got rid of all my "suspect" ammo and purchased the S&B on the advice of a friend. So, is my friend full of it? What would you suggest for QUALITY, WELL-MADE, RELIABLE, and of course EFFECTIVE ammo for the AR? (If you know the answer for the AK and 9mm, I'm listening, too!) Thanks!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:17:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By az_larry: When I shoot my FA stuff, I always say a little prayer that goes something like no squib, no squib, no squib, no squib, no squib!!!!!![peep]
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Hey, man, I didn't touch it! [:D]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:36:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By USNA91: Wow. Glad you're OK... Seeing as this has happened to others before, I, an admited ammo negat, must ask the following: I have a reasonable supply of Selier & Bellot .223 ammo that I purchased about three years ago. Is this stuff any good? I had a NASTY experience with some Georgia Arms Canned Heat 9mm in my Beretta 92FS and DID NOT ENJOY the incident (The gun's fine...barely). After that, I got rid of all my "suspect" ammo and purchased the S&B on the advice of a friend. So, is my friend full of it? What would you suggest for QUALITY, WELL-MADE, RELIABLE, and of course EFFECTIVE ammo for the AR? (If you know the answer for the AK and 9mm, I'm listening, too!) Thanks!
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223 - Win Q3131A 7.62x39 - SA surplus 9mm - Winchester 100rd bulkpack from WallyWorld. $10.95. QS
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:43:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By USNA91: Wow. Glad you're OK... Seeing as this has happened to others before, I, an admited ammo negat, must ask the following: I have a reasonable supply of Selier & Bellot .223 ammo that I purchased about three years ago. Is this stuff any good? I had a NASTY experience with some Georgia Arms Canned Heat 9mm in my Beretta 92FS and DID NOT ENJOY the incident (The gun's fine...barely). After that, I got rid of all my "suspect" ammo and purchased the S&B on the advice of a friend. So, is my friend full of it? What would you suggest for QUALITY, WELL-MADE, RELIABLE, and of course EFFECTIVE ammo for the AR? (If you know the answer for the AK and 9mm, I'm listening, too!) Thanks!
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223 - Win Q3131A 7.62x39 - SA surplus 9mm - Winchester 100rd bulkpack from WallyWorld. $10.95. QS
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Thanks, QS! Just one thing, though. Should I ditch what I have here? Also, what are SA and WallyWorld? [bracing for comments about stupid questions...]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:45:15 PM EST
SA=South African surplus Wally World = WalMart. I hate the place, but when I can get a 1000rd case of new Winchester 9mm for $110 I choke down my disgust and go get it.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:45:32 PM EST
Out of curiosity, what was the lot number you were using?!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:45:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: SA=South African surplus Wally World = WalMart. I hate the place, but when I can get a 1000rd case of new Winchester 9mm for $110 I choke down my disgust and go get it.
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Oh, yeah....take the Wolf and sell it to a banger at the next gun show.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:48:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:51:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: SA=South African surplus Wally World = WalMart. I hate the place, but when I can get a 1000rd case of new Winchester 9mm for $110 I choke down my disgust and go get it.
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Oh, yeah....take the Wolf and sell it to a banger at the next gun show.
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No Wolfe here, fortunately, though I know quite a few friends who have it. I thought you meant Wal-Mart. It's just that I'm not sure if the ones in South Florida sell ammo like that. Well.....Time to find out! Thanks! And as for the BOOM in question....Pics?
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:58:47 PM EST
I only shoot Federal through my AR but my AK loves Wolf. Gobbles it up like my partners gobble donuts at a dept meeting!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 12:59:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
Originally Posted By Mach1: The lacquer build up is a myth. I heated up an empty case with a propane torch for about 30 seconds. I took a Q-tip and dragged in across the surface to see if it was tacky. It wasn't.
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Hmmm... that's interesting. I wonder where the lacquer went? Look in your chamber. [:O]
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Nope. Clean as a whistle. I have 3000+ rounds of Wolf through my Bushy. I have never used a chamber brush or anything but CLP. Gotta love the G.I. spec chamber and chrome lining. [:)]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 1:52:38 PM EST
Since VAGunnut (Our resident Wolf expert/lover) hasn't responded yet I feel the need to say.... Wolf isn't cheap except for the price you pay. It is good quality ammo and they stand behind their products. I personally don't use wolf in my AR's but I do in AK's. Stop bashing Wolf unless you can tell for certain that it was the cause of the problem.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 1:58:49 PM EST
Thanx for the help, fellows. The armorer at my local PD bought a few from Bushmaster after putting mine through some trials. I dont wanna see something like that happen to those guys. I'm gunna write em a letter and go from there. Thanks again!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 2:14:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By Matrix: Glad you are not hurt! Send the whole thing to Bushmaster & have them assess the situation. That's my 2cents worth. Then go buy a new Bushmaster?!
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Ditto! Don't jack with it...send it to Bushmaster. Oh, Glad you're not hurt!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 2:21:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2002 2:22:09 PM EST by Gunner1X]
[b]W[/b] WILL [b]O[/b] OCCASIONALLY [b]L[/b] LAUNCH [b]F[/b] FLAMES
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:07:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By 7: Wolf isn't cheap except for the price you pay. It is good quality ammo and they stand behind their products. I personally don't use wolf in my AR's but I do in AK's.
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I've never heard of a problem with Wolf in AK's, but it could be argued that AK tolerances are pretty loose.
Stop bashing Wolf unless you can tell for certain that it was the cause of the problem.
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Sorry, but it's a case head seperation. That's an ammo problem, and in this case, the ammo is Wolf. Hopefully they take care of it. I like my AR, so I only use UMC or Winchester Q3131A. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:12:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:28:22 PM EST
I had something like that happen last year(Sherm8404 was a witness to this) on my Rock River Arms LEGP. I was using surplus ammo, NOT WOLF, from Southern Ammunition. Don't remember what headstamp it was but I think the woman shooting next to me was impressed when I calmly removed the exploded mag and inserted a fresh Thermold!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:38:17 PM EST
i guess i must be "lucky". tens of thousands of cheap commie rounds down the pipes of all my firearms. at bulletfest, a gazmillion rounds got smoked with only one kaboom...a full auto m2 carbine running greek .30 carbine ammo. yup...a case separation. but did the ammo get blamed. hell no. no one had checked the chamber, firing pin protusion or headspace in...god knows how long. has this ar had a no-go gage chambered recently? ever? i suggest you contact wolf. they may replace your rifle.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:41:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:57:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2002 4:05:33 PM EST by CAMPYBOB]
i guess we shouldn't be shooting lake city, either... [url]http://assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003187.html[/url] that's 4 blown m-16's in a week from lake city. "Beware the dangers of CHEAP AMMO!... If you shoot enough cheap ammo, it'll happen to you." perhaps we can re-write to say: Beware the dangers of HIGH DOLLAR AMMO!... If you shoot enough high dollar ammo, it'll happen to you. ok, we've seen hirtenburger blow, i've blown primers in s.a., i've watched hand loads fail, lake city kabooms. i've seen ar bolts fail at the cam pin and at the lugs. i've watched a 1911 dump the mag and blow its' grip panels .hmmm? maybe i better just quit shooting altogether.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:07:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: has this ar had a no-go gage chambered recently? ever?
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Recently? It's an 8 month old rifle, and one would expect it was checked by Bushmaster before leaving the factory. After that, maybe not. I wonder how many people actually have go/no-go guages and firing pin protrusion guages and actually check their rifles often. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:12:23 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:31:53 PM EST
Sounds like you had a shell blow the worng way.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:49:18 PM EST
"Recently? It's an 8 month old rifle, and one would expect it was checked by Bushmaster before leaving the factory. After that, maybe not. I wonder how many people actually have go/no-go guages and firing pin protrusion guages and actually check their rifles often." go read the assaultweb post on headspace (ar & m forum). there's a relively new rifle with headspace issues. the owner, in this case, can verify the condition. the heat treatment on a lot (heat, not quantity) of parts can vary significantly. bolts stretch, locking surfaces wear. it never hurts to slap a gage in there every now and again. to answer your question...not nearly enough folks check their rigs. and manufacturers do screw up....rarely, but it does happen. this kaboom may, indeed, be ammo related...and i sure as hell ain't into telling folks what ammo to shoot. just that sooner or later, if you blast enough of anything or any type of hi-po firearm...something weird is gonna happen.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:05:31 PM EST
After shooting Wolf out of a friends (never mine) Bushmaster, the upper reciever was full of green paint flecks. We had shot all but one bullet out of two boxes. Saved that last bullet for disassembly purposes. [thinking] Hey thats what we could use ALL the Wolf 223 for!
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:34:46 PM EST
Maybe the ammo was pre ban, and the rifle was post.... Maybe Rosie snuck in and relpaced your powder with c-4..... Maybe the BATF's new tracking device malfunnctioned.....
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:44:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:57:06 PM EST
All xxxxx ammo is bad! Send to me for disposal! I have shot a bunch of Wolfe and never had a problem. My M-16 eats the stuff pretty rapidly. Same for several pistols and a Thompson. Case failures are rare but do happen in ANY brand ammo. Steel cases, in fact, are a little STRONGER than brass - go figure. People treat their guns like their cars - as long as it runs everything must be fine. Checking critical dimensions, particularly on a new gun or one long in service is just good sense. Careful inspection when cleaning is often overlooked but is very important both for safety and reliability. I have no idea if this incident was the gun, the ammo, or alignment of the planets. That is what investigations are for. Send it to manufacturer and find out. If it is ammo related, contact Wolfe. You may be surprised to find they believe in good customer service unlike some companies. Have you tried whopping butt of rifle on hard surface while pulling back on the charging handle?? That often dislodges the stuck round. Save the pieces parts and the BOX from which the round came as well as a few other cases from same session. All can provide good information as to what happened. I take most of the anti-Wolfe comments with a grain of salt. A few are true, many are not. Like most ammo stories people come to many conclusions difficult to support with fact.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:06:21 PM EST
I've never shot Wolf, the forums here have scared me away from it. As for Winchester 223 Q loads, wallyworld does have great pricing on the stuff, bought 2 40 rnd value packs there for just under 16 bucks after tax, compared to the price of 80 rounds of wolf it was like 3 bucks more, i'll pay pennies on the round for higher quality ammo.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:26:57 PM EST
PCCDP I must not understand your math correctly. (2) 40 rnd packs for $16. sounds like $.20 per round to me. I pay $100 / k for Wolfe or $.10 per round. My way of thinking that is HALF the price of Wally World. By that measure you can replace the upper assembly every 5 cases or so.
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