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Posted: 2/24/2010 10:16:24 PM EDT
I have a modem in the house feed via cableone high speed internet service. My wireless router just died. I have a empty 2 inch plastic conduit running underground from the house to my shop. Roughly 40 feet. The house and shop have a aluminum mylar layer of insulation that blocks wireless access through the walls. I need a new wireless router in the house that will allow me to hard wire another wireless access point out in the shop via the underground conduit and then hard wire to another wireless access point on the outside of the shop to feed a patio/deck area.

I've looked around our tiny town and all that is available locally is simple wireless routers at Walmart.

What equipment do I need to pull this off and what is a good single mail order source to buy it from?

Thanks AC
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 10:21:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 10:25:31 PM EDT by Rorsach-NL]
As far as i know, every wireless router also has a couple of ports for cat5 cable. Use one of these to run the cable to a wifi repeater (range expander) in your shop.

Remember to check with your ISP if the router/modem you're going to buy is compatible with their settings and be sure that the repeater is compatible with your router.
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 10:33:32 PM EDT
I've got a Belkin Wireless N that can act as an access point. Daisy chain them together. Look for WAP (I think) capability.
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 10:41:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 10:44:20 PM EDT by Izzman]
I'm pretty sure almost all wireless routers can be turned into APs by simply logging into them and turning off DHCP.

ETA:  Just plug one into the other, not using the WAN port.  I have a linux box as a router, and a linksys wireless router plugged into that acts as an AP only.

Also, newegg.com for all your computer needs.
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 11:13:24 PM EDT
linksys from Radiio Shack will do what you want I am running hardwired from 100 ft away
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 11:16:19 PM EDT
DD-WRT will turn most of the Linksys wireless routers into relay stations.



Thus eliminating the need to hardwire between routers.



One can then connect hardwired OR wireless clients to either router.



P.S. Turning off DHCP has nothing to do with it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 1:26:03 AM EDT
I will second using DD-WRT, it is very powerful, a bit more secure than the stock Linksys firmware, and offers exactly the kind of configurability you will need for your network.

Recommendations:

1) Get the Linksys WRT-54GL ($59.99each at Newegg.com) and flash with DD-WRT (not super difficult, but it can be tedious... PM me if you want assistance)
2) Plug the router in the house (HouseRouter) into your Cable Modem.
3) Run your CAT 5 Cable(s) to the Shop location, you probably want to run separate cables for the Shop (ShopAP) and Patio (PatioAP) units and plug them both into the house router, daisy chaining Router (HouseRouter) to Router (ShopAP) to Router (PatioAP) can cause problems in some (rare) instances. You will likely want to turn off the DHCP services on the Shop and Patio APs; multiple DHCP servers can cause massive amounts of havoc on any network.  
4) Set your wireless security to the highest available (WPA2-AES PSK for most home users); you will probably want to duplicate the Wireless SSID and WPA-2 PSK Keys across the HomeRouter and the Shop and Patio APs.
5) Set the Channel of each Wireless Radio to something other than 6 if you live in a populated area: Channel 6 is the default for 99% of all routers, and can get very "noisy" in some areas.
6) You may want to set each Wireless Radio in your network to a different channel (it can be helpful when determining if you have a connectivity problem with one router and you need to isolate the problem).
7) Consider setting the Patio router to a Very Low transmit power to limit the range to a smaller area if you live in a densely populated area and do not wish your network to broadcast its presence (Not transmitting your SSID is not really a valid defense anymore).
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 8:12:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 8:15:05 AM EDT by Soybomb]
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
DD-WRT will turn most of the Linksys wireless routers into relay stations.

Thus eliminating the need to hardwire between routers.

One can then connect hardwired OR wireless clients to either router.

P.S. Turning off DHCP has nothing to do with it.

If he has probablems getting a signal in the structure that isn't much help.  There's no need to complicate this iwth firmware flashing and the like.  Use the lan port and turn off dhcp.  You can now think of it as a wireless switch that allows you to build out from it.

Grabbing another generic wireless router (personally I like linksys) and turning off dhcp is the solution I'd go with.  Configure the new router with an IP address different than the first router and also outside the range of its dhcp pool (might also write this on a piece of masking tape and stick it to the bottom so you know what it is if you ever want to log into the router in future to fiddle), then turn off dhcp on the new router.  Take it to your workshop and plug a wire in connecting one lan port on each router.  You can plug any wired clients in the workshop to the remaining lan ports.  Lather, rinse, repeat.
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 10:25:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 10:29:48 AM EDT by Dave_A]







Originally Posted By Soybomb:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:



DD-WRT will turn most of the Linksys wireless routers into relay stations.
Thus eliminating the need to hardwire between routers.
One can then connect hardwired OR wireless clients to either router.
P.S. Turning off DHCP has nothing to do with it.




If he has probablems getting a signal in the structure that isn't much help.  There's no need to complicate this iwth firmware flashing and the like.  Use the lan port and turn off dhcp.  You can now think of it as a wireless switch that allows you to build out from it.
Grabbing another generic wireless router (personally I like linksys) and turning off dhcp is the solution I'd go with.  Configure the new router with an IP address different than the first router and also outside the range of its dhcp pool (might also write this on a piece of masking tape and stick it to the bottom so you know what it is if you ever want to log into the router in future to fiddle), then turn off dhcp on the new router.  Take it to your workshop and plug a wire in connecting one lan port on each router.  You can plug any wired clients in the workshop to the remaining lan ports.  Lather, rinse, repeat.







Turning off DHCP has *NOTHING* to do with weather a router functions as a router/wireless AP (the default mode), a bridge, or just another switch.
DHCP (Distributed Host Control Protocol) is just a method for passing out IPs to clients.
WITHOUT disabling DHCP:
1) If you hook a wireless router up to another wireless router, by way of an Ethernet cable from a LAN port on the first router to the second's 'WAN' or 'Internet' port, the first router will provide the second with an IP over DHCP, leading to the following
[WAN]



|



[FIREWALL/ROUTER DEVICE 1]––––>Clients on default IP range.



|



[FIREWALL/ROUTER DEVICE 2]––––>Clients on default IP range
NOW. If the default IP ranges are the same (Say, because both routers are the same brand), *THEN* you will have problems, but not because of 'DHCP', rather because both routers are going to be configured for the same IP range (192.168.1) and you will have an IP conflict. The 'fix' for this, is to change 'ROUTER 2' to a different IP range (say, 192.168.2.0 instead of 192.168.1.0).
2) If you hook a wireless router up to another wireless router, by way of an Ethernet cable from LAN port to LAN port (this assumes a crossover cable, or the router having automatic crossover switching), then the second router will function as a switch. Wireless clients MAY or MAY NOT be able to connect back to the 'first' router, depending on the programming of the router in question.
The IP conflict situation also still potentially exists. Specifically, if you have 2 identical routers, you will have 2 identical IPs (one per router) both answering as Default Gateway. One of them is hooked up to DSL. The other, to nothing. Some routers may not activate the default-gateway IP unless there's a live connection... Others will have it 'up' all the time.
Disabling DHCP won't 'solve' this, but entering 2 different IP ranges WILL.
With that out of the way, the DD-WRT solution
DD-WRT has the advantage over the '2 routers and a cable with factory firmware' solution, of allowing bridging.
What bridging does, is make 2 separate physical networks *appear* to be one network (short form, before someone comes in and jabs at me for not using exacting technical terms).
So, if you have 2 DD-WRT routers, with the 2nd functioning as a 'relay-bridge', all of the above is a non-issue. The 'bridge' has no IP itself, and simply integrates everything connected to it into the wireless network that *it* connects to.
Thus, a 'relay bridge' config - provided you can get signal from the AP in the house out (with directional antennas, people have been able to get very long distance connections between 2 Linksys routers) - means anything you plug in (or connect by wifi) to the DD-WRT router in your outbuilding, will appear to be directly connected to the router in the house. And no trenching cable, etc....
It is really, really simple... www.dd-wrt.org explains everything.
Buying the WRT54GL makes it as simple as possible, as the 'L' model is designed for custom firmware like DD-WRT...
For other routers, it may get more complicated....





It *is* wise to turn off DHCP on 'downstream' bridge or switch configurations, to avoid multiple DHCP servers on the same network, *UNLESS* you are doing the '#1' option above (because by having the Lan -> WAN port wired connection, you are actually setting up separate, firewalled networks behind each router.




DD-WRT does this automatically, when you select a configuration other than 'AP' or 'Relay' (Eg, 'client bridge' or 'relay bridge')...




But DHCP has nothing to do with what 'mode' the router operates in.

 
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 2:19:35 PM EDT
@Dave_A

My only concern with bridging two or more DD-WRT devices wirelessly is the increase in latency and waste of bandwidth caused by the bridging; there is also the matter of causing a packet storm across the wireless interfaces.

He's already for the conduit and if I read it correctly, the cabling too, why not use it?  

Your points on DHCP are well taken, but that is probably not what ACWelder wants he proably wants everything on one network, and doesn't want to have to create a routing table so all devices can communicate: Linksys WRT54-GL Routers use 192.168.1.1, if any bridging or daisy chaining were to be done, the IPs of each device would need to be set to different addresses:

HomeRouter=192.168.1.1 (Stock)
ShopAP=192.168.1.2 (Altered)
PatioAP=192.168.1.3 (Altered)
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 9:42:28 AM EDT

It is really, really simple... www.dd-wrt.org explains everything.

Buying the WRT54GL makes it as simple as possible, as the 'L' model is designed for custom firmware like DD-WRT...



I have WRT54GL routers in hand.

There is no www.dd-wrt.org

Did you mean www.dd-wrt.com ?

Link Posted: 3/8/2010 9:45:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
DD-WRT will turn most of the Linksys wireless routers into relay stations.

Thus eliminating the need to hardwire between routers.

One can then connect hardwired OR wireless clients to either router.

P.S. Turning off DHCP has nothing to do with it.


QFT
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 9:45:20 AM EDT
How do you run the cable through the pipe?

Think the Olympics used ferrets for that before.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 9:59:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
DD-WRT will turn most of the Linksys wireless routers into relay stations.

Thus eliminating the need to hardwire between routers.

One can then connect hardwired OR wireless clients to either router.


I have to connect via cable. The aluminum mylar insulation in the shop blocks the signal from reaching the unit in the shop.


Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:01:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2010 10:01:51 AM EDT by Admiral_Crunch]
Get a WAP that supports an external aux antenna.  Put the WAP in your house, and run the antenna wire through the conduit to the garage.  That way, you only need one WAP.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:02:40 AM EDT
KISS....one wireless router w/internal switch ports and two acces points. Use the router as your MDF and your shop as your IDF. Run 2 cables through your underground, terminating one at the WAP location in your shop and one for the patio/deck area. Now, configure each WAP with a seperate SSID and use WPA for your security. All devices can pull from the same DHCP pool. Set your wireless devices to connect to each wireless network as necessary. You won't have a seamless transition if you walk from house to yard to shop while surfing, but you will have a network connection in the three locations.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:03:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:
Get a WAP that supports an external aux antenna.  Put the WAP in your house, and run the antenna wire through the conduit to the garage.  That way, you only need one WAP.


Or this.

Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:04:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By marksman121:
How do you run the cable through the pipe?

Think the Olympics used ferrets for that before.


Pull it through with a fish tape.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:09:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By marksman121:
How do you run the cable through the pipe?

Think the Olympics used ferrets for that before.



Hopefully the guy that ran it included a string in the pipe. If not, a 50' fish tape will work or you can suck an appropriately sized balloon through it with a vacuum. Glow sticks would also work if there aren't too many sharp bends.

Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:13:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dracster:
Originally Posted By marksman121:
How do you run the cable through the pipe?

Think the Olympics used ferrets for that before.



Hopefully the guy that ran it included a string in the pipe. If not, a 50' fish tape will work or you can suck an appropriately sized balloon through it with a vacuum. Glow sticks would also work if there aren't too many sharp bends.



Cable is already run.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:18:53 AM EDT
why is everyone overcomplicating this?

setup your router
run cat5 to workshop
plug WAP into router
setup WAP to use same wireless settings

done.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:20:08 AM EDT
I have 3 WRT54GL routers in hand. I understand I need to flash them all with DD-WRT in order to turn 2 of them into wireless access points?

Do I need to install the supplied software that came with the routers first before doing the DD-WRT thing?

Reading through the DD-WRT info on this router now. http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Linksys_WRT54GL

Looks like I need to flash the mini version first and then upgrade.

So much fun.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:22:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2010 10:29:22 AM EDT by hellbound]
Originally Posted By ACWelder:
I have 3 WRT54GL routers in hand. I understand I need to flash them all with DD-WRT in order to turn 2 of them into wireless access points?

Do I need to install the supplied software that came with the routers first before doing the DD-WRT thing?

Reading through the DD-WRT info on this router now. http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Linksys_WRT54GL

Looks like I need to flash the mini version first and then upgrade.

So much fun.


STOP

you don't need DD-WRT or wireless repeating or any of that bullshit... i am 99% sure you can use the stock linksys firmware to do EXACTLY what you want to do... if you still want to upgrade firmware Tomato is much easier

take one router, make it your primary in the house... take one outside and plug the CAT5 into the primary router. configure the workshop router as a WAP. disable routing and DHCP as someone else said. set the primary route to the IP of the primary router. Then configure the wireless security identical to the primary router.

next time you need computer help, go to Urban Commandos forum, NOT GD...
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:41:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2010 10:42:14 AM EDT by ACWelder]
Originally Posted By hellbound:

STOP

you don't need DD-WRT or wireless repeating or any of that bullshit... i am 99% sure you can use the stock linksys firmware to do EXACTLY what you want to do... if you still want to upgrade firmware Tomato is much easier

take one router, make it your primary in the house... take one outside and plug the CAT5 into the primary router. configure the workshop router as a WAP. disable routing and DHCP as someone else said. set the primary route to the IP of the primary router. Then configure the wireless security identical to the primary router.

next time you need computer help, go to Urban Commandos forum, NOT GD...


I posted on Urban Commandos forum. Didn't know there was such a place here. Thanks

Here is new thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=124&t=1009837&page=1



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