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Posted: 6/18/2002 4:40:25 AM EDT
[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27991[/url] "We don't understand why this is a controversy," Dr. Ergun Caner told the Dallas Morning News. "This is something you have in Hadith; this is something in Islam's teaching Ð something we were taught as children." Dr. Caner, who was born a Muslim, is on the faculty of Criswell College in Dallas. With his brother, Dr. Emir Fethi Caner, who teaches at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C., he has written the book, "Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs."
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 4:50:02 AM EDT
'Islam was founded by a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives – and his last one was a 9-year-old girl.' Hmmm. So let's compare the lives of the Prophets - on the one hand we have Issa (Jesus), who the Koran says was the most righteous man to have ever lived, on the other hand, we have 'the great prophet, Muhammad'...who seems to have had a problem with, well, sin. Unspeakable sins. Unthinkable sins. Did Aisha really want to bed down with a 52 year old man? What must one think about a 52 year old man who wants to bed down with a 9 year old girl? From another site: "Muhammad was 52 and Aisha was 9 when they married and sexually consummated their marriage. Muhammad followed an Arab custom in marrying a child who had her first menstrual cycle. [b]This action must be questioned, regardless of it being a cultural norm, because Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent[/b]: a girl is judged an adult following her first menses, and is eligible for marriage and sexual relations. Thus Muslim men are allowed to marry and have intercourse with young girls who have happened to have an early first menstrual cycle. [b]As will be shown, this leads to physical and psychological damage to the child[/b]." See remainder of article at:[url]http://answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm[/url] Eric The(Shocked)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 4:55:36 AM EDT
From the Encyclopedia of Islam (on 'Aisha'): "Some time after the death of Khadija, Khawla suggested to Muhammad that he should marry either Aisha, the 6 year old daughter of his chief follower, or Sawda Zama, a widow of about 30, who had gone as a Muslim to Abyssinia and whose husband had died there. Muhammad is said to have asked her to arrange for him to marry both. It had already been agreed that Aisha should marry Djubayr Mutim, whose father, though still pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. By common consent, however, this agreement was set aside, and Muhammad was betrothed to Aisha.... The marriage was not consummated until some months after the Hidjra, (in April 623, 624). Aisha went to live in an apartment in Muhammad's house, later the mosque of Median. [b]She cannot have been more than ten years old at the time and [u]took her toys to her new home[/u][/b]." Eric The(That'sNice,SheKeptHerToys!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 5:31:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 6:19:01 AM EDT by Kar98]
[url]http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm[/url] Girls married at the age of 3 before according to the Jews' Holiest book, the Talmud. In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. The French penal code raised the age from 11 to 13 only a century ago. In England, it was only in 1929 (73 years ago) that the ancient Christian minimum age for the marriage of females, which was 12, was abandoned. The early rock and roll singer Jerry Lee Lewis was considerably older than his 13 year old cousin whom he married in all legality in Arkansas. Since then, the age there has been raised to 16. That marriage lasted for about 15 years and there was never any other "scandal" associated with Jerry Lee Lewis. The story is quite different, however, for his cousin Jimmy Swaggart (the well-known and disgraced tele-evangelist) who married a woman his own age but later publicly confessed that he was an adulterer and a whoremonger. In the seventeenth century, 3 year old girls were burned to death or tortured in Europe for allegedly copulating with demons, witches and sorcerers. [i]The mote that is in the eye of your brother you see; but the beam that is in your own eye, you see not!" When you cast the beam out of your own eye, then you will see how to cast out the mote from your brother's eye." [/i]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 5:39:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: [url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27991[/url] "We don't understand why this is a controversy," Dr. Ergun Caner told the Dallas Morning News. "This is something you have in Hadith; this is something in Islam's teaching Ð something we were taught as children." Dr. Caner, who was born a Muslim, is on the faculty of Criswell College in Dallas. With his brother, Dr. Emir Fethi Caner, who teaches at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C., he has written the book, "Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs."
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I ordered the book from Amazon after I saw this the other day. Looking forward to reading it, it was not an expensive book.....
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 5:41:34 AM EDT
"The mote that is in the eye of your brother you see; but the beam that is in your own eye, you see not!" When you cast the beam out of your own eye, then you will see how to cast out the mote from your brother's eye." " excellent. we say, "make sure you remove the 2x4 from your own eye before removing the splinter from your brother's eye.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 6:30:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98: Girls married at the age of 3 before according to the Jews' Holiest book, the Talmud.
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So you must be a muslim sympathizer? I thought the Jewish holy book is the Torah. One thing Christianity doesn't teach that these savage muslims do, eliminate those who don't "convert" to muslim beliefs.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 6:33:35 AM EDT
So what, [b]Kar98[/b], as recently as 1945, the Germans were throwing children in gas chambers as young as...well, newborns, I suppose! And they [u]weren't[/u] doing it for Christian, Jewish, or Islamic motives either, now, were they? So how old do [u]you[/u] figure children should be before they should be thrown into ovens with their parents? What was wrong in 654 AD, was wrong in 1654 AD, and was wrong in 1854 AD, [u][b]wherever[/b] it occurred[/u]! Right? Once again, the sites you visit are a gas! (No pun intended) Eric The(Non-SituationalEthicsGuy)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:11:01 AM EDT
I'll give the creator of the "Answering Christianity" website credit for one thing: even he thinks Louis Farrakhan is a con artist. [:D] [url]http://www.answering-christianity.com/noi.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:28:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ipschoser1: So you must be a muslim sympathizer?
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Where the hell did come up with [i]that[/i] stupid idea?
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:33:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 7:34:21 AM EDT by Kar98]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: So what, Kar98, as recently as 1945, the Germans were throwing children in gas chambers as young as...well, newborns, I suppose!
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What is it with you and your unhealthy obsession with the Nazis?
So how old do [u]you[/u] figure children should be before they should be thrown into ovens with their parents?
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You are one sick animal for even suggesting that.
Once again, the sites you visit are a gas! (No pun intended)
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Good, because your "sense of humor" could suck the chrome right off a trailer hitch.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:35:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:46:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 7:47:14 AM EDT by Kar98]
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: No offense but some people pay attention to the things you have written in past threads.
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You obviously aren't one of them, because IF you would pay attention, you might have noticed that I pretty much despise ALL religions of [i]The Book[/i].
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:50:36 AM EDT
Post from Kar98 -
What is it with you and your unhealthy obsession with the Nazis?
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Mine? [:D] But note that I didn't say 'Nazis', I said 'Germans.'
You are one sick animal for even suggesting that.
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Hmmm, you may need help with your English, my friend, I 'suggested' nothing! If you inferred that I did, you may need to ask yourself why. But you still failed to answer my questions, as usual.
Good, because your "sense of humor" could [u]suck the chrome right off a trailer hitch[/u].
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Is that a phrase that's used in your family a lot? Sucking chrome off trailer hitches has some rather unhealthy aspects. You should seek some professional help about this habit. Eric The(Sassier'NUsual)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:52:52 AM EDT
This is probably gonna get me banned, but I am just thinking out loud. This is the first thought that crossed my mind... We all know how ugly those Muslim women are. Having sex with a 10yo girl is probably the only way hit one that is half way decent looking. My apologies in advance to everybody that I know this will offend.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:53:46 AM EDT
Let's say it together, Eric: "L-A-M-E", lame.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 7:53:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:07:40 AM EDT
Post from Kar98 -
Let's say it together, Eric: "L-A-M-E", lame.
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Hmmm, that's correct, but, [b]no[/b] it's not [u]spelling[/u] abilities that you're lacking but basic reading comprehension, possibly. But 'T-H-A-N-K-S', thanks, anyway! Eric The(Appreciative)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:16:56 AM EDT
That's even lamer than your last one. *yawns* What's next, you start kicking up sand? You're a very boring and tiresome person.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:26:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:29:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98: That's even lamer than your last one.
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Stick with an insult but DOUBLE IT!
*yawns*
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You show how bored you are with a conversation by typing your bodily reactions to it? Hmmmmm.
What's next, you start kicking up sand?
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Only when you are standing in Achmed's sandbox.
You're a very boring and tiresome person.
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"Asshole for the Truth"? Yes. Boring? You can't seem to get enough.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:33:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mejames: This is probably gonna get me banned, but I am just thinking out loud. This is the first thought that crossed my mind... We all know how ugly those Muslim women are. Having sex with a 10yo girl is probably the only way hit one that is half way decent looking. My apologies in advance to everybody that I know this will offend.
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Do Google searches on the following ugly Arab women: Christina Leardini Queen Rania of Jordan Yasmin Ghaury Just for starters. Some of them clean up real nice, actually.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:37:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98: Let's say it together, Eric: "L-A-M-E", lame.
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I don't see anyone picking up your chant. Could it be because it was L-A-M-E....
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:40:21 AM EDT
Well, let's see [u]your[/u] routine, [b]Kar98[/b]! How are you gonna entertain us today? Shall I move back the furniture? [:D] Oh, I know, how about another 'incomplete' post from the 'ElectronicIntifadah' website? That worked wonders the last time you tried it! Eric The(YouKnowMe?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:40:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:42:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: No offense but some people pay attention to the things you have written in past threads.
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You obviously aren't one of them, because IF you would pay attention, you might have noticed that I pretty much despise ALL religions of [i]The Book[/i].
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You quote far-fetched and unsupported lies from anonymous, online muslims to support your attacks on Jews.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:46:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Eric The(YouKnowMe?)Hun[>]:)]
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Yes, see my sig :) End of discussion.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:55:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rn45:
"We don't understand why this is a controversy," Dr. Ergun Caner told the Dallas Morning News.
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It's a controversy because .....
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No, what the author of the above quote was getting at is that they, the book's authors, do not understand what the controversy is among those attacking the Southern Baptist guy's comments. They made the point that Islamic documents clearly spelled out the fact that Muhammed did in fact marry and have sexual intercourse with a child, and that he did in fact question whether he himself was possessed by a demon. How can such well documented facts be a source of controversy? Simple, some folks don't wish to acknowledge the skeletons in their own closets. As far as Allah not being Jehovah, THAT is controversial, but ONLY when you divorce the question from flawed human interpretations of divinity. Jehovah, Yaweh and Allah are one and the same Creator. That different cultures and individuals have variously and often erroneously misinterpreted God and His desires for us has no bearing on who He Is. The truth in the Reverend's saying is that the Allah that terrorist muslims claim is telling them to kill all non-muslim infidels (as well as muslims who are insufficiently faithful) is Not the true Allah. It is either a failed human interpretation (or maliciously malinterpreted or plain made up) interpretation or an outright poseur intentionally leading Muslims into rebellion against Allah. By ancient Hebrew sources, Lucifer was the brother of Gabriel (Jibril) Michael and Raphael. How hard would it be for a such a powerful being to disceive a human into believing it was something it was not? For good reason is Lucifer refered to as the Father of Lies. However, the preacher's delivery leaves A LOT to be desired and is custom designed to draw fire.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:57:48 AM EDT
Whenever Eric is stymied by facts, he always attacks the sender personally. The fact remains.......most cultures, *including* Western ones, considered VERY young girls marriageable until the last century or so. Getting back on topic, this makes Mohammed worse for marrying a 9 year old, how?
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 8:58:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By ipschoser1: So you must be a muslim sympathizer?
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Where the hell did come up with [i]that[/i] stupid idea?
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No offense but some people pay attention to the things you have written in past threads. Just a thought though. Your on one side or the other and people will associate you as one on the other side now, like it or not. I'm sure your an all around nice muslim sympathizer. Be glad your not thought of as a muslim extremist sympathizer. Big difference there.[:D]
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Thanks for the cover fire, ilikelegs. I've been off line for a while this morning, work you know. [:D] I still think kar98 is a mulim sympatizer even after his lame attempt to deny it.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:04:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 9:04:53 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
People with biases are willing to repeat things that they know to be lies. When your bias is so strong, that you are willing to sacrifice your integrity, you've lost. (the fact that his wife was a nine-year-old is true, whether or not that makes him a pedophile is cultural revisionism.)
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:09:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98: [url]http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm[/url] Girls married at the age of 3 before according to the Jews' Holiest book, the Talmud. In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. The French penal code raised the age from 11 to 13 only a century ago. In England, it was only in 1929 (73 years ago) that the ancient Christian minimum age for the marriage of females, which was 12, was abandoned. The early rock and roll singer Jerry Lee Lewis was considerably older than his 13 year old cousin whom he married in all legality in Arkansas. Since then, the age there has been raised to 16. That marriage lasted for about 15 years and there was never any other "scandal" associated with Jerry Lee Lewis. The story is quite different, however, for his cousin Jimmy Swaggart (the well-known and disgraced tele-evangelist) who married a woman his own age but later publicly confessed that he was an adulterer and a whoremonger. In the seventeenth century, 3 year old girls were burned to death or tortured in Europe for allegedly copulating with demons, witches and sorcerers. [i]The mote that is in the eye of your brother you see; but the beam that is in your own eye, you see not!" When you cast the beam out of your own eye, then you will see how to cast out the mote from your brother's eye." [/i]
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The sins perpetrated by members of a society should not be construed as invalidating the society as a whole or the religion it purports to follow. Religions have institutionalized behaviors that many of us would consider abhorrent today. Many have been rationalized in theological terms. To that I simply comment that humans are immensely fallible people capable of great rationalization. I suggest that religious directives that seem at odds with other religious directives may be discounted as erroneously interpreted or socially accepted practices that were rationalized into the religion to protect self-interests. Religious practices evolve over time as societies mature. Often past practices must evolve out of current practice. Child marriage is one such practice. It is a social practice that societies sought to "make right" with their faiths. Then as now politics played a significant role in shaping religious practices. Such young betrothals have virtually ALWAYS been political or social tools intended to cement ties between families, tribes, kingdoms and empires. Likewise abominations like the Inquisition and Witch hysterias. Human religious institutions are also political institutions often populated by and manipulated by people with scant faith and selfish intentions. Again the failures of human institutions do not invalidate God and True Faith. God plays no part in that and bears no responsibility for how we fraudulently and self-servingly use His name and Word. The rebellions of humans are ours alone to bear.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:14:32 AM EDT
Very intelligent and well thought-out post.
Originally Posted By icemanat95: Religions have institutionalized behaviors that many of us would consider abhorrent today.
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That one I would have phrase a tad differently: [i] [ALL] Religions have [in the past and the present] institutionalized behaviors that many of us would consider abhorrent today.[/i]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:15:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 9:31:05 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:17:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:24:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: Whenever Eric is stymied by facts, he always attacks the sender personally. The fact remains.......most cultures, *including* Western ones, considered VERY young girls marriageable until the last century or so. Getting back on topic, this makes Mohammed worse for marrying a 9 year old, how?
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WOW, first post on this topic and you are jumping on ETH already. GIVE IT A REST... The only ones that seem to care what you think are yourself and kar98
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:25:01 AM EDT
One last thing. It may be important to seperate the Torah from the Talmud. The Torah is variously either literally the first five books of the Old Testament, or more loosely, the entire Old Testament. The Torah is one thing, the Talmud is something else. The Talmud is an additional work(s) that support the Torah and instruct Jews as to how to interpret the Torah in their daily lives. The Talmud is to Torah as our laws are to the Constitution. And herein lies the problem. How well have the Talmudic scholars through the ages interpreted Divine Law?
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:29:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 9:36:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: ...your kids are pretty feed up with you as well.
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Yuck! Feed your kids right or they grow up with Mad Human Disease!
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:11:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dukota:
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: Whenever Eric is stymied by facts, he always attacks the sender personally. The fact remains.......most cultures, *including* Western ones, considered VERY young girls marriageable until the last century or so. Getting back on topic, this makes Mohammed worse for marrying a 9 year old, how?
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WOW, first post on this topic and you are jumping on ETH already. GIVE IT A REST... The only ones that seem to care what you think are yourself and kar98
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Gee could it be? Hanna=Kar98 Isn't it interesting how individuals who take German terms for their screen names here seem to behave in a certain pattern?
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:14:20 AM EDT
I would hate to be a child of Hannah_Reitsch. Can you imagine the fits and rampage at home with this woman ? Talk about issues. [>:/]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:16:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Gee could it be? Hanna=Kar98
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Nope.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:17:07 AM EDT
ilikelegs, and Dukota: The screeching of "Eric's little minions" will certainly NOT shut me up. AGAIN, can you try to stay on topic and not make a personal attack when you fail to disprove facts? In case you have forgotten: The topic is child marriage, remember? Unless you have more to add on topic, you are simply trolling and breaking board rules, like your role model.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:24:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: ilikelegs, and Dukota: The screeching of "Eric's little minions" will certainly NOT shut me up. AGAIN, can you try to stay on topic and not make a personal attack when you fail to disprove facts? In case you have forgotten: The topic is child marriage, remember? Unless you have more to add on topic, you are simply trolling and breaking board rules, like your role model.
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You should have remembered that when you posted here for the first time Mrs. hypocrite. No one said anything about you shutting up, it was how unstable and irratic your emotions are during your posts. Nice of you to contribute and stay on topic for your two replies to this post. You brought a lot of insight to the discussion.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:34:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bug_splatter: I would hate to be a child of Hannah_Reitsch. Can you imagine the fits and rampage at home with this woman ? Talk about issues. [>:/]
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and then:
You should have remembered that when you posted here for the first time Mrs. hypocrite. No one said anything about you shutting up, it was how unstable and irratic your emotions are during your posts. Nice of you to contribute and stay on topic for your two replies to this post. You brought a lot of insight to the discussion.
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Yes, your comments were certainly contributing to the topic as well. I see you have also attended the "baffle em with personal attacks when you have no facts" school of debate. However, you failed yet again to comment on the topic. CHILD MARRIAGE. Try again.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:37:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:38:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:38:56 AM EDT
Looking back in time and attempting to apply today's rules and morals is historical and cultural revisionism. It's intellectually dishonest. So is repeating things that you know are untrue, or are from suspect sources, just because they support your ideas.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:43:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: Whenever Eric is stymied by facts, he always attacks the sender personally. The fact remains.......most cultures, *including* Western ones, considered VERY young girls marriageable until the last century or so. Getting back on topic, this makes Mohammed worse for marrying a 9 year old, how?
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I commented on Eric's behavior because the topic had gone WAY off track. The rest of my first post is *clearly* on topic. If you have a personal problem with me, you know where you can put it. Now, can you answer the question I posed in my first post, or are you going to make more misogynist remarks? I resubmit: The fact remains.......most cultures, *including* Western ones, considered VERY young girls marriageable until the last century or so. This makes Mohammed worse for marrying a 9 year old, how?
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:45:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr: Bug, stop the personal shit with Hannah, and go on debating the topic,please.
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Sorry Hannah, Im sure your a wonderful person. As to the topic. Would you allow your daughter to get marreid at age 9 or atleast start having sex at this age ?
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:47:40 AM EDT
Hannah's right. Revisionism is ignorant. Using revisionism to smear contemporaries is dishonest.
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