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Posted: 8/24/2004 10:22:14 AM EST
I have seen, once before, a thread where some jerk was trash-talking about the US Military and was advised something along these lines:

"There is no specific rule in the COC, but we at AR15.com will not tolerate the bashing of honorable military troops"

That is a good rule.

I am one of the first to criticize dishonest or bad police officers. As an ex-LEO, I believe that they bring shame to an honorable profession and ought not to be tolerated.

But I am so weary of the constant cop-bashing on AR15.com that I can hardly stand it.

Why do we put up with this?

Honorable police officers put on a uniform and bravely serve their country and countrymen, just like any military trooper. Police work is an honorable profession, one that we as patriotic people ought to support.

While I have no problem with discussing the few bad cops, just like we condemned the few bad soldiers in the Iraqi prison scandel, we all know that the few bad soldiers do not represent the vast majority of good troopers in the military.

There ought to be a rule in the COC regarding law enforcement officers that shows them the same respect as is shown to our military people.

Good cops ought to be respected here. Just like good troops.

You're a fair man, Mr. Ed. I'll leave the wording to you.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:23:20 AM EST
IBTL.

(Sorry O_P)

I kinda, sorta agree with you, to a point.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:24:31 AM EST
if you dont like it, dont read it

people have a right express themselves within the rules set up by the owners of this site.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:24:35 AM EST
Who's Mr Ed?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:27:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I have seen, once before, a thread where some jerk was trash-talking about the US Military and was advised something along these lines:

"There is no specific rule in the COC, but we at AR15.com will not tolerate the bashing of honorable military troops"

That is a good rule.

I am one of the first to criticize dishonest or bad police officers. As an ex-LEO, I believe that they bring shame to an honorable profession and ought not to be tolerated.

But I am so weary of the constant cop-bashing on AR15.com that I can hardly stand it.

Why do we put up with this?

Honorable police officers put on a uniform and bravely serve their country and countrymen, just like any military trooper. Police work is an honorable profession, one that we as patriotic people ought to support.

While I have no problem with discussing the few bad cops, just like we condemned the few bad soldiers in the Iraqi prison scandel, we all know that the few bad soldiers do not represent the vast majority of good troopers in the military.

There ought to be a rule in the COC regarding law enforcement officers that shows them the same respect as is shown to our military people.

Good cops ought to be respected here. Just like good troops.

You're a fair man, Mr. Ed. I'll leave the wording to you.



I agree to a point but, open discussion should be allowed. Once a gag order is in place, it is far easier for the other team to win.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:27:48 AM EST
If we can't say white guys lose at track & field, we most certainly shouldn't be able to cop-bash.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:29:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:30:05 AM EST
cop bashing all cops aint right.

I am with you ole' pain-in-the-ass, sorry, ole' painless,

They do lay it out there every day and for a lot less than I would do it for.

You never know- that cop you bash today, may be the very one who saves your ass tomorrow

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:30:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I have seen, once before, a thread where some jerk was trash-talking about the US Military and was advised something along these lines:

"There is no specific rule in the COC, but we at AR15.com will not tolerate the bashing of honorable military troops"

That is a good rule.

I am one of the first to criticize dishonest or bad police officers. As an ex-LEO, I believe that they bring shame to an honorable profession and ought not to be tolerated.

But I am so weary of the constant cop-bashing on AR15.com that I can hardly stand it.

Why do we put up with this?

Honorable police officers put on a uniform and bravely serve their country and countrymen, just like any military trooper. Police work is an honorable profession, one that we as patriotic people ought to support.

While I have no problem with discussing the few bad cops, just like we condemned the few bad soldiers in the Iraqi prison scandel, we all know that the few bad soldiers do not represent the vast majority of good troopers in the military.

There ought to be a rule in the COC regarding law enforcement officers that shows them the same respect as is shown to our military people.

Good cops ought to be respected here. Just like good troops.

You're a fair man, Mr. Ed. I'll leave the wording to you.


As an LEO I agree with your post to a point, BUT I see some of the bashing as an opportunity to present the other side. I got a little pissed over the LEO's-shouldn't-have-formal funerals nonsense, but these guys have a right to their opinion just like we do.
After all, its just the internet.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:30:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 10:35:44 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:32:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:35:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:36:14 AM EST
I think most of the generalized cop-bashing is hyperbole or overenthusiastic argument. The really nasty stuff comes from a couple of sour, bitter, obsessed goofballs who are ignored by most of us. The worst ones to me are the posts that start "Cops are . . ." or "All cops. . . ."

The "two categories of citizen" arguments raise legitimate questions, though they invite mutual escalation. For some reason, the insinuation infuriates LEOs, and the perceived fact infuriates the people who are hooked on that issue.

The one problem that I see is that the cop-bashers' arguments frequently become so venomous that the cops leave the thread (understandably) and engaging discussions die.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:36:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 10:40:19 AM EST by HKocher]
I have a lot of respect for the profession, but I don't agree with OP this time (sorry).

Hey, I have friends and family that are lawyers, but lawyers get beat to hell on ARFcom and no one complains. Same goes with doctors and many other professions.

Like it or not, no matter what you do, someone here is not going to like your profession. A nun could post here, and some jackass would come along and flame her for calling in life.

Not to flame, but it seems like SOME of the police officers have a thin skin around here. YES, the constant bashing gets old fast. However, if they just ignored the threads instead of jumping into the flame fest, this type of stuff would die off much faster.

Last thing we need at ARFcom are more protected classes of people...
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:38:39 AM EST
Well while you're at it, why not just add the rule that you are not allowed to start a thread asking another member a question.
Thats considered "calling out" a member and even though nothing is in the COC, its a no no.
Or at least to some mods........maybe......well really not sure....when in doubt, just lock it !!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:40:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:40:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I think most of the generalized cop-bashing is hyperbole or overenthusiastic argument. The really nasty stuff comes from a couple of sour, bitter, obsessed goofballs who are ignored by most of us. The worst ones to me are the posts that start "Cops are . . ." or "All cops. . . ."

The "two categories of citizen" arguments raise legitimate questions, though they invite mutual escalation. For some reason, the insinuation infuriates LEOs, and the perceived fact infuriates the people who are hooked on that issue.

The one problem that I see is that the cop-bashers' arguments frequently become so venomous that the cops leave the thread (understandably) and engaging discussions die.



Sometimes, though, its fun to argue !!!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:42:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 10:43:27 AM EST by furball75]

Originally Posted By P806:
Who's Mr Ed?



A horse of course


(but to be acctual mr.Ed was a zebra)
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:44:18 AM EST
OP, I'm afarid I must disagree. I like to have these guys out in front where they can be seen for what the are. Yes, it's pretty disgusting, but consider this.

Far better the open antagonist than some guy who is all smiles and standing behind you with a knife up his sleeve.

I stand on record here, I think the posting of a thread just so Eric can score some obscure libertarian viewpoint (that no one could give a rat's ass about) over a good man's violent death smacks of ego tripping, elitism, and just plain poor manners.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:53:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By furball75:

Originally Posted By P806:
Who's Mr Ed?



A horse of course


(but to be acctual mr.Ed was a zebra)



CORRECT!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:56:24 AM EST
Hoily shit... I agree with EricTheHun on something.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:59:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Hoily shit... I agree with EricTheHun on something.



Thanks, Ben.

If that doesn't convince Eric of the error of his ways, I don't know what will.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:59:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:59:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:05:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 11:06:53 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:08:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:09:02 AM EST
Does anyone still believe in freedom of speech?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:09:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 11:11:30 AM EST by TxLewis]

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
OP, I'm afarid I must disagree. I like to have these guys out in front where they can be seen for what the are. Yes, it's pretty disgusting, but consider this.

Far better the open antagonist than some guy who is all smiles and standing behind you with a knife up his sleeve.

I stand on record here, I think the posting of a thread just so Eric can score some obscure libertarian viewpoint (that no one could give a rat's ass about) over a good man's violent death smacks of ego tripping, elitism, and just plain poor manners.



I assume you mean ERICtheHUn? Well, Johninbunnyville, you can say alot of things about ERIC. But one thing you can not say is that he is rude or an elitist. And don't EVER bad talk his windex.

But ego trippng, elitism, poor manners, talk about the pot calling the kettle.......


TXL
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:14:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Does anyone still believe in freedom of speech?




Posting derogatory comments of a racial, religious, or sexual nature.


That's right out of the COC.

Does it limit "freedom of speech"?

Of course it does.

But the owners (and most of us) believe that some speech is vile enough that they don't want it on this site.

Freedom of speech is not the issue.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:15:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:15:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:17:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
There's a large minority of people here who hate authority in any uniform. They don't mind the military because they're a thousand miles away but they hate the police with their heart and soul. I believe there's a large sub-set of them who are the dopers as the paranoia and hate for the police is pretty strong among the dopes I knew. Some just hate all forms of authority because they can't comply with any law not in the Constitution - whether it be seat belts or taxes.



Well said.

I agree completely.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:19:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:23:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:24:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Does anyone still believe in freedom of speech?




Posting derogatory comments of a racial, religious, or sexual nature.


That's right out of the COC.

Does it limit "freedom of speech"?

Of course it does.

But the owners (and most of us) believe that some speech is vile enough that they don't want it on this site.

Freedom of speech is not the issue.



It absolutely is the issue! You are talking about removing the ability of members of an internet forum to criticize the enforcement arm of government! You are talking about putting special protections on a class of Arfcommers!

I say no special protection for police! If the criticism violates the existing COC rules then the Mods can lock the thread. Other than that, LET THEM SPEAK! You can rebut if you want!

And BTW...My check is in the mail!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:27:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 11:39:04 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]
We should have a rule forbidding bashing of software engineers. Wahhh it isn't fair.



seriously, I don't much like the people that bash cops here either but I don't think we need any more rules.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:33:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:36:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:36:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i'll ban the very next guy that bashes a bicyclist, fellow road racer, tourist, mountain biker...or anyone that just plain old wants a heroic viking funeral...without bagpipes.

and i get to ban those that bash engineers, also! we serve mankind!

and 'i' get to determine exactly what 'bashing' is.

and i also get to determine what 'is' is.

and i also get to wear the cool viking helmet with the horns.

and i get to make up other nifty rules as i see fit!



Funny comments, campybob.

Why don't you bash honorable military troopers and see how well that goes over?

Go ahead. I dare you.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:37:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:41:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 11:42:13 AM EST by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i'll ban the very next guy that bashes a bicyclist, fellow road racer, tourist, mountain biker...or anyone that just plain old wants a heroic viking funeral...without bagpipes.

and i get to ban those that bash engineers, also! we serve mankind!

and 'i' get to determine exactly what 'bashing' is.

and i also get to determine what 'is' is.

and i also get to wear the cool viking helmet with the horns.

and i get to make up other nifty rules as i see fit!



Funny comments, campybob.

Why don't you bash honorable military troopers and see how well that goes over?

Go ahead. I dare you.



OK,

To hell with any cop or any soldier that cannot take criticism from the American people! We have a first amendment right to freedom of speech, and that is there SPECIFICALLY to criticize the government and it's agents.

If you are a soldier or cop, and you are not serving with the express intention of defending that right, then please resign. Your service is unwanted!

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:47:11 AM EST
To hell with any individual who believes that their career field and job position is somehow or another related to social stature. That's really the core of my attitude towards politicians, cops, military, attorneys, doctors, software engineers, and those damn sanitation workers.

When you sit on the toilet, stinky shit comes out of your ass just like the rest of us.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:47:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i'll ban the very next guy that bashes a bicyclist, fellow road racer, tourist, mountain biker...or anyone that just plain old wants a heroic viking funeral...without bagpipes.

and i get to ban those that bash engineers, also! we serve mankind!

and 'i' get to determine exactly what 'bashing' is.

and i also get to determine what 'is' is.

and i also get to wear the cool viking helmet with the horns.

and i get to make up other nifty rules as i see fit!



Funny comments, campybob.

Why don't you bash honorable military troopers and see how well that goes over?

Go ahead. I dare you.



OK,

To hell with any cop or any soldier that cannot take criticism from the American people! We have a first amendment right to freedom of speech, and that is there SPECIFICALLY to criticize the government and it's agents.

If you are a soldier or cop, and you are not serving with the express intention of defending that right, then please resign. Your service is unwanted!




No. You misunderstood.

I, along with you and many others, will quickly jump on a bad cop (or soldier).

What I was talking about is those that are "good and honorable", and are serving to the best of their ability.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:55:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 11:58:02 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:58:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

No. You misunderstood.

I, along with you and many others, will quickly jump on a bad cop (or soldier).

What I was talking about is those that are "good and honorable", and are serving to the best of their ability.



What's the deciding factor? Most of the debates here about cops have been debates over whether or not the cop acted appropriately. When a cop shoots a dog, and one side says he was out of line and the other side says he was just doing his job, who becomes the arbitor of right and wrong in that case?

What standard is to be used? Whether or not the cop was charged with a crime? What if the cop SHOULD have been charged with a crime, but wasn't? Is that prohibited speech?

It's a slipperly slope, and I am against setting one foot on it.

Sorry, OP. Not trying to dis on "The Law", I just don't think we should open pandora's box on this issue!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:00:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:02:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:07:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 12:10:52 PM EST by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:07:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
NO MORE RULES!

Can't some of you people stand up on your own without having mommy come save you?





+1 I can't add anything worthwhile so I just say +1 to ilikelegs post. I don't think we need more rules and ad another protected class. Police are already a protected class and so are their dogs.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:08:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 12:14:42 PM EST by magnum_99]
I, for one, am disturbed at the "free pass" many want to give those who served in the military simply because they served. While most honorable is the ideal of military service, it is disingenuous to assume that all those who served had honorable intentions as the basis for their enlistment or that they served honorably at all.

Moreover, I tend to get quite annoyed as well with, what I'll call, "miliatary eliteism," that comes from some of those that profess to have "been there and done that." That is to say, some seem to think that they are the sole repositories of wisdom and knowledge for anything "tactical" and that anyone who did not serve has no right to challenge their thinking or knowledge regarding these subjects.

I believe that the two ideas are related.

ANY citizen of this country has a right and a DUTY to question governmental power and the exercise thereof.

And if that means questioning the use of troops, and their actions, then so be it.

No disespect to those who have served honorably, but the discussion of politics and use of troops sometimes requires criticism of their actions, even down to a particular unit or individual.


Moreover, the lesson of John Kerry should be teaching us all that sometimes it just may be appropriate to post the question, "what is honorable service, and what does that entail."

I am quite disheatened that some say we should NEVER question or debate the nature or character of a person's service and that ANY service is honorable.

No way Jose. No free passes. It demeans those who DID serve with honor. John F'ing Kerry is a slap in the fact to all those who bled to earn their purple hearts.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:08:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 12:09:58 PM EST by hound]
Damn I love former cubans more everyday, see ya soon buddy.

edited to say former cause he is really red, white, and blue on the inside.
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