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Posted: 9/8/2010 2:32:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 2:33:04 PM EDT by valheru21]
So, a "friend" just got a ticket for "running" a red light on his motorcycle after coming to a complete stop. He stomped on the ground to make the damn sensor notice him. He rolled back and forth. No luck. A car coming from the opposite direction tripped the sensor on the other side. He was making a left. I waited for that car to make a left, and then, I did the un-thinkable... I looked both ways, and proceeded through the red light.

I've been through this light before a few hundred times - if it was sensing my motorcycle, I'd have gotten the green light first (since I was there first).

Needless to say, there is always a cop around when you need one... and, right behind me are the shiny blue lights. It has always been my understanding that if the sensor isn't working, one can cautiously proceed through the intersection with no cross traffic after coming to a complete stop and trying to make the light work. It seems some states have laws like this. My question is... is there a law like this for Mississippi that I can use as an affirmative defense for the red-light law. The trooper was polite, but sadly uninformed. He told me that Mississippi doesn't have smart-lights when I explained what I was doing.

MS paint for your viewing pleasure.

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:34:57 PM EDT
In Minnesota stop lights are basically like stop signs for cycles.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:35:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 2:41:10 PM EDT by bigshooter81]
FUUUUUUUU.....
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:35:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:37:54 PM EDT
SC allows it.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:37:55 PM EDT
Right left right would be the only other way ?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:38:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:39:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 2:40:30 PM EDT by bigshooter81]
First triple tap!
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:39:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:39:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By valheru21:
So, a "friend" just got a ticket for "running" a red light on his motorcycle after coming to a complete stop. He stomped on the ground to make the damn sensor notice him. He rolled back and forth. No luck.

Arent most of them magnetic?

Ive always read that the fix it is to glue a small speaker magnet to the bottom of the bike.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:42:03 PM EDT
Guess you were supposed to sit there all fucking afternoon?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:42:41 PM EDT
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-06-10-red-light-laws_N.htm



North Carolina passed a similar law in 2007. Wisconsin (2006), Idaho (2006) Arkansas (2005), Tennessee (2003) and Minnesota (2002),




Aint google grand?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:43:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By valheru21:
So, a "friend" just got a ticket for "running" a red light on his motorcycle after coming to a complete stop. He stomped on the ground to make the damn sensor notice him. He rolled back and forth. No luck. A car coming from the opposite direction tripped the sensor on the other side. He was making a left. I waited for that car to make a left, and then, I did the un-thinkable... I looked both ways, and proceeded through the red light.

I've been through this light before a few hundred times - if it was sensing my motorcycle, I'd have gotten the green light first (since I was there first).

Needless to say, there is always a cop around when you need one... and, right behind me are the shiny blue lights. It has always been my understanding that if the sensor isn't working, one can cautiously proceed through the intersection with no cross traffic after coming to a complete stop and trying to make the light work. It seems some states have laws like this. My question is... is there a law like this for Mississippi that I can use as an affirmative defense for the red-light law. The trooper was polite, but sadly uninformed. He told me that Mississippi doesn't have smart-lights when I explained what I was doing.

MS paint for your viewing pleasure.

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr82/valheru21/Myticket.jpg

"Friend" eh?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:43:39 PM EDT
I work on traffic signals for our town, I might be able to answer your questions.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:44:32 PM EDT
Just because you got to the light first doesn't necessarily mean you will get the through movement before the opposite lane gets the left turn. In almost every instance the protected left movement is the lead portion of the light phasing. You may have gotten there and let the computer know there was a call, but in all instances there is some sort of delay for the change of the light, especially on the through movement.

Now if you set at the light and it went through the other directions, then you might have an argument.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:44:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 2:46:04 PM EDT by bill3508]
I've had to do it many times. Supposed to be treated as a bad signal and go once conditions are safe.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:45:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 2:47:51 PM EDT by SpacemanSpiff]
Originally Posted By Silence:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
So, a "friend" just got a ticket for "running" a red light on his motorcycle after coming to a complete stop. He stomped on the ground to make the damn sensor notice him. He rolled back and forth. No luck.

Arent most of them magnetic?

Ive always read that the fix it is to glue a small speaker magnet to the bottom of the bike.


yes, they are magnetic loops, I dont think any of them actually use weight sensors.

never tried the speaker magnet it might be worth a try. My bike doesnt trip a lot of the sensors either.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:45:26 PM EDT
Vehicle detectors in the ground at lights detect ferrous metals not weight.

If you can see the square saw cut in the ground put your bike on one of the corners as that is its most sensitive area most likely to detect you being there.
All aluminum and you can have problems.....corner of the loop in the ground is your best bet.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:46:36 PM EDT
My car is small and occasionally won't trip the sensors for 2 of the redlights on the way home. At 3-5AM with no cross traffic, I "run" those lights regularly. Of course I stop, look, and wait to see if the light will sense me. If not I'm going through.


If an officer stops me, I hope I can explain the situation. If he wants to ticket me for it on the way home from the hospital at 0 dark thirty, well then he's a dick, and I'll take my ticket and figure it out later. I can't sit for a half an hour waiting for a larger car to come along and trip the light for me.


This is in MS too. Sorry, I cannot speak about the legality of the issue.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:48:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thorshammerblow:
Just because you got to the light first doesn't necessarily mean you will get the through movement before the opposite lane gets the left turn. In almost every instance the protected left movement is the lead portion of the light phasing. You may have gotten there and let the computer know there was a call, but in all instances there is some sort of delay for the change of the light, especially on the through movement.

Now if you set at the light and it went through the other directions, then you might have an argument.


There is no dedicated left-turn lane. Normally, I'd agree with you, but, as I said, I've been through this light a bunch of times (in a car and a bike). It was not sensing my bike.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:49:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff:
Originally Posted By Silence:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
So, a "friend" just got a ticket for "running" a red light on his motorcycle after coming to a complete stop. He stomped on the ground to make the damn sensor notice him. He rolled back and forth. No luck.

Arent most of them magnetic?

Ive always read that the fix it is to glue a small speaker magnet to the bottom of the bike.


yes, they are magnetic loops, I dont think any of them actually use weight sensors.

never tried the speaker magnet it might be worth a try. My bike doesnt trip a lot of the sensors either.


Well, I tried rolling over the whole strip a few times. Seriously, I gave it a solid college try.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:49:33 PM EDT
WI is after 1 minute you're GTG. They just change it a couple of years ago. Take it to court you'll get it dismissed. The light sensors don't go by weight is a change in a magnetic field that triggers it. Sometimes my Tacoma won't trigger a light either, ground clearance is the reason. I can get it to change if place my Craftsman Hand carry tool box on the pad. Good luck. I'm 260 plus my H-D and still have issues, they're not weight activated.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:49:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I don't think there is such an exception here in Texas.

But I know of several lights where the weight of my motorcycle is not enough to cause the light to change.



When I use to ride, my HD plus me was not enough to trip the sensors.

The sensors are MAGNETIC, not pressure or weight based.

There's not enough steel in most bikes to trip them.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:50:27 PM EDT
Most sensors in the road work off of inductance. There is a wire buried in the road in a loop. the inductance of this wire is measured, and when an object that changes the inductance of the wire approches, ( big hunk of metal) the sensor is tripped. Or something like that. ha. Some motorcycles arent disruptive enough to the "field" of the inductor.
Has nothing to do with weight. The magnet trick does sound like it may help. ???
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:51:32 PM EDT
I don't think there is an exception here in FL either, I have had to put my
kickstand down on the coil to get it to change and have also had that
method fail. I have ran the red a few times and avoided those lights
since. I feel making the left on red is safer than pulling back into the straight
lane. One time the light would not change and I pulled up in front of
the line and waved the car behind me up to over the coil. The driver was
freaking out and would not pull up. I just ran the light.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:52:21 PM EDT
I have two 1/4"x1" rare earth magnets I got from Applied Magnets glued to my skid plate. Cheap and works like a charm. Strong little fuckers!
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:52:26 PM EDT
A red light is a red light.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:54:17 PM EDT
Yup, but a piece of aluminum will trip the sensor.

Originally Posted By krustyone:
Most sensors in the road work off of inductance. There is a wire buried in the road in a loop. the inductance of this wire is measured, and when an object that changes the inductance of the wire approches, ( big hunk of metal) the sensor is tripped. Or something like that. ha. Some motorcycles arent disruptive enough to the "field" of the inductor.
Has nothing to do with weight. The magnet trick does sound like it may help. ???


Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:54:33 PM EDT
stick some magnets on the bottom of your bike.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:54:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge_Runner_5:
A red light is a red light.


correct, it is the same as a cop standing there telling you to stop
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:59:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge_Runner_5:
A red light is a red light.


So he should have sat there until he died of dehydration?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:00:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff:
Originally Posted By Silence:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
So, a "friend" just got a ticket for "running" a red light on his motorcycle after coming to a complete stop. He stomped on the ground to make the damn sensor notice him. He rolled back and forth. No luck.

Arent most of them magnetic?

Ive always read that the fix it is to glue a small speaker magnet to the bottom of the bike.


yes, they are magnetic loops, I dont think any of them actually use weight sensors.

never tried the speaker magnet it might be worth a try. My bike doesnt trip a lot of the sensors either.

Ive also heard of guys glueing hard drive magnets to their boots.

I was tempted to do something similar but they changed the law to let bikes run "malfunctioning" lights with "due diligence", plus there were only one or two lights around me that were problems, the rest were set sensitive enough to detect my F4i.

Heck, if you complain enough to the county you can get a bad sensor recalibrated.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:01:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sailmirage:
Vehicle detectors in the ground at lights detect ferrous metals not weight.

If you can see the square saw cut in the ground put your bike on one of the corners as that is its most sensitive area most likely to detect you being there.
All aluminum and you can have problems.....corner of the loop in the ground is your best bet.


Around here, the newer intersections are camera sensed:
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:02:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dunragit:
Originally Posted By Ridge_Runner_5:
A red light is a red light.


correct, it is the same as a cop standing there telling you to stop


Luckily, some states are a little more clear-headed with regard to this issue.

I did come to a complete stop and wait until the non-existent cross-traffic had a red-light and the oncoming traffic had proceeded through.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:04:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 3:17:44 PM EDT by electrojk]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I don't think there is such an exception here in Texas.

But I know of several lights where the weight of my motorcycle is not enough to cause the light to change.



There is an exception in Texas. If the light will not change for a motorcycle, it is a malfunctioning light and you can procede through the red if it is safe to do so.
Give me a min. and I will see if I can find the law....


I was wrong.

Sec. 544.0075. CERTAIN TRAFFIC-ACTUATED ELECTRIC TRAFFIC-CONTROL SIGNALS. (a) This section applies only to a traffic-actuated electric traffic-control signal that consists of a traffic-control signal for which the intervals vary according to the demands of vehicular traffic as registered by a detector and that is installed and operating at an intersection.

(b) In addition to any other type of vehicle the presence of which the detector for the traffic-actuated electric traffic-control signal may register, the detector for a traffic-actuated electric traffic-control device to which this section applies must be capable of registering the presence of a motorcycle.

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:06:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By electrojk:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I don't think there is such an exception here in Texas.

But I know of several lights where the weight of my motorcycle is not enough to cause the light to change.



There is an exception in Texas. If the light will not change for a motorcycle, it is a malfunctioning light and you can procede through the red if it is safe to do so.


Give me a min. and I will see if I can find the law....


I appreciate it, but I've found a few state's laws - I'm trying to find one for MS.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:09:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 3:14:30 PM EDT by HBruns]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I don't think there is such an exception here in Texas.

But I know of several lights where the weight of my motorcycle is not enough to cause the light to change.

The sensors are not triggered by weight; they are triggered by the vehicle changing an E-M field (much easier to design and implement). The E-M field is set up by the rectangular "loop" embedded in the pavement.

One way to trigger the sensor is to attach a STRONG magnet to the bottom of your bike. This will usually work.






(I can't believe I'm correcting O_P... it almost feels blasphemous!)

ETA - I see I'm late to the party and several have already made the point about an electro-magnetic field.

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:11:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge_Runner_5:
A red light is a red light.


Not in Tennessee. Bikes can go through red lights after stopping. Like a stop sign.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:13:01 PM EDT
I don't know of any law in AZ like that. I always roll up on top of one of the wires on my bike and never have a problem tripping the light. I have steel rims and if my tire is directly over the wire the steel is just a couple of inches from the loop. Works for me anyway.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:21:50 PM EDT
Killing the engine and restarting is suggested by Virginia DMV to trip the magnetic sensor.

For the camera sensors, I will back up a little and angle the bike. This seems to make a big enough target to trip the camera.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:25:12 PM EDT
I ride a scooter to work (go ahead and flame me) and always have to turn on a red. The sensors rarely notice me.

I'll wait for the light to go through one complete cycle, then go ahead and turn as long as it's clear.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:29:42 PM EDT
Missouri the rule is "A reasonable amount of time".
If the light won't change in a reasonable amount of time you are free to go through it. The kicker is the red light cameras are tied into the sensors. If they do not detect a vehicle they will not fire if you drive through while red. According to what I have been told the camera will record the time of the violation and the times when the light did change. So, if the last change was 5 minutes before you drove through then it would be fairly easy to prove it wasn't changing. If it recording a change 15 seconds before you went through, well, you might not do so well in court.

Or so I have been told....
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:31:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 3:33:01 PM EDT by swingset]

Originally Posted By bill3508:
I've had to do it many times. Supposed to be treated as a bad signal and go once conditions are safe.

That's how it works in Ohio.

You can buy rare-earth magnets to mount under the bike that will trip them, btw.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:32:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 3:33:57 PM EDT by jrollins]
Originally Posted By valheru21:
He told me that Mississippi doesn't have smart-lights when I explained what I was doing.


Best line of the week!


Originally Posted By Mass-Length-Time:
Around here, the newer intersections are camera sensed:
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/signalcam1.jpg

eta - that's interesting, looking at the MD DOT stuff. Most places put cameras in that spot for the entertainment of DOT employees and they don't do jack shit for the signal.
Oh, and the other little things they put up there on the signals are for emergency vehicle pre-emption devices that use frequency or modulation coded IR strobes.


Once you find the proper spot around the sensor, it's fairly easy to trip with a motorcycle. The problem is that they are rarely marked(some signals around the Portland area have a little bicycle symbol painted at the most sensitive spot to help out bicyclists), and sometimes the loops themselves are not visible. Usually you can see the cuts in the pavement and park over the top of them, off the one side is usually better to get the most area of the bike directly over it. If it's been paved over though, you're SOL. I know I have trouble finding the right spot to trip the vehicle sensors at a few fast food drive-thrus, sometimes one bike works fine and another won't do anything.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:42:23 PM EDT
Been to court on this a couple of time's. The key is how long did you wait? If you just assumed that you did not trip the light because the other light went first thats why you got the ticket. You still will probably get a pass from a judge. Just tell the judge you waited a reasonable amount of time and you have had trouble before at that same light. I've always had mine dismissed. But I'm also always patient at lights. I told the judge once that I waited 15 minute's.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:44:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By YoteSlayer69:
Been to court on this a couple of time's. The key is how long did you wait? If you just assumed that you did not trip the light because the other light went first thats why you got the ticket. You still will probably get a pass from a judge. Just tell the judge you waited a reasonable amount of time and you have had trouble before at that same light. I've always had mine dismissed. But I'm also always patient at lights. I told the judge once that I waited 15 minute's.


I waited roughly 3-4 minutes while I was moving the bike around and stomping (apparently in vain) on the ground. This light is very quick about turning the instant you show up at the intersection. It turned immediately when the other car pulled onto the sensor.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:53:32 PM EDT
In Texas, it doesn't appear so:


Can I cross an intersection on a red light if my bike doesn't trigger the light to change?

No, there are no provisions in Texas law that will allow any non-emergency vehicle to bypass a red light. You will need to turn or change lanes legally when safe then find another route. As stated in Texas Transportation Code (TRC) 544.0075 certain traffic-actuated electric traffic-control signals are required to be capable of registering the presence of a motorcycle.
Texas Transportation Code

Linky


I have, however, gone through a red light. There's an intersection back behind my office that I go through when I take the 'back' way to get to the highway to go home. One direction (from the office) has been resurfaced with that tar and gravel bullshit, so I can't see the sensor lines. The other direction has not been resurfaced, so I can stop right on top of the sensor line. I sat there for 5+ minutes one night and the light would not change. Legally, I'd be required to make a right on red, then go down the street, make a u-turn, then come to the intersection and make a right. That's we-todd-did.

There's another sensor at an intersection on the highway that will never sense my bike either. I sat there for FOUR cycles of the light before an SUV came up behind me and was able to get over the sensor.


So I'd sum up that the traffic control signals are apparently NOT able to sense my motorcycle.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:56:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By bill3508:
I've had to do it many times. Supposed to be treated as a bad signal and go once conditions are safe.

That's how it works in Ohio.

You can buy rare-earth magnets to mount under the bike that will trip them, btw.



I'm thinking about ordering some anyway. My bike has a plastic 'tank' cover, and I want to use a magnetic tank bag - so the solution is to mount a few rare-earth magnets to the underside of the tank. Woot.com had some 20mm diameter ones (10 pack) for $5 recently....
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:59:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ridge_Runner_5:
A red light is a red light.

Yep. Either sit there indefinitely or stay home fucking civilian.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 4:04:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:
Killing the engine and restarting is suggested by Virginia DMV to trip the magnetic sensor.

For the camera sensors, I will back up a little and angle the bike. This seems to make a big enough target to trip the camera.

Suicide. Terrible suggestion by any DMV. A motorcyclist aboard a bike NOT RUNNING is a target and not able to move away from an offending vehicle.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 4:10:23 PM EDT
I have the same problem with my lifted truck, it may trip them 1 in 10 tries. I run them too.
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