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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/27/2001 7:32:37 PM EDT
I was inspired to post this question here from a thread at TFL. It's a good question and I want some AR15 input on the question. If I had enough experience I would contribute myself. Overrated Pistol: Underrated Pistol: Overrated Rifle: Underatted Rifle: What are the most overrated/underrated cartridges for rifles and handguns?
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:37:46 PM EDT
[pistol] I think many revolver cartriges are being overlooked especially the .357 Magnum. I would take it over almost any standard pistol cartridge except maybe the .45 ACP. [sniper] I think the .223 is a little overrated. It is great for its purpose, wounding enemy soldiers, but it is not the best hunting round.
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:39:47 PM EDT
over pistol 44mag-45/454 will do so much more under pistol 38super/9x23 its 357 ballistics in a auto. The rifle is easy 223/5.56 for both.It wont doas much as some think/but does more than the others think.
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:41:06 PM EDT
Most overrated pistol: The S&W DAO Airweight Most Underrated Pistol: The Glock 27- it rocks! Most overrated Rifle: The FN FAL- overpriced ...blab blab blab Most Underrated rifle: The Ruger 10/22 Most overrated cartridge in history: Using the .22lr as a "man-stopper." Most underrated cartridge in history: the .380 as a man stopper (.380 killed more people over the last decade than any other caliber-even though I don't think it packs enough punch to do it quickly enough).
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:44:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:45:55 PM EDT
OP / Desert Eagle (Only looks good in Hollywood) UP / Hi Power 9mm Browning OR / AK 4 to 6 MOA at 100 yards yah right UR / FAL/G3 308 OrCar. / 270 / 280 Handgun 44 Mag (Nice but has been by passed) UrCar 223 and 9mm
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:48:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556: Most overrated pistol: The S&W DAO Airweight Most Underrated Pistol: The Glock 27- it rocks! Most overrated Rifle: The FN FAL- overpriced ...blab blab blab Most Underrated rifle: The Ruger 10/22 Most overrated cartridge in history: Using the .22lr as a "man-stopper." Most underrated cartridge in history: the .380 as a man stopper (.380 killed more people over the last decade than any other caliber-even though I don't think it packs enough punch to do it quickly enough).
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Where was/is your sorce on that 380 stuff?? I would think it would of been 9mm
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:57:52 PM EDT
Over-rated handgun: any Glock They're fine for guarding doughnuts and packing around, but they're not sacred. Most under-rated caliber: .223 Rem. It's good out to 300 yds with a 55 gr. bullet. Put a 70 gr. match bullet on it and you're good to about 700 - 800 yds. Much beyond that, and I'm going to call them in or get closer myself. Watched a James Bond movie last night. That Walther PPK in .380 ACP is a bit over-rated I think. VERY European to carry a weenie gun caliber though. I like a Makarov which is a knock-off of the Walther, but it's a commie gun and that has some cachet. I like a 38 SPL, under rated, but it's easy to reload, cheap to shoot, and effective enough. Best rifle? I think maybe the AR is a work of art. Best handgun . . . of all time . . . 1911. Of course it all depends on what you're doing with these guns. Like shoes, you don't wear combat boots to the Prom.
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:57:57 PM EDT
Most Overrated pistol cartridge: .45 ACP " " " : 1911. Most Underrated pistol cartridge: .380 ACP " " " : Beretta M9. Most Overrated rifle cartridge: .30-06 Government " " " : Winchester Model 70 bolt-actions. Most Underrated rifle cartridge: 7MM Rem.Mag. " " " : Remington 7400 autoloaders.
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 8:09:33 PM EDT
Over rated pistol: 9mm Under rated pistol: .32acp Over rated rifle: 7.62x51mm Under rated rifle: 5.56mm
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 8:14:24 PM EDT
I had heard the most deadly round is the .22, because it is universal throughout the world. I would think the 12GA would be second again because of universality. Plus both rounds are over 120 years old. BTT I too think the 9mm Hi-Power is underated. It has finally been overtaken but from 1935 to 1975, I think it was the pinnacle of pistols. [pistol] The 1911 is overrated, but it has to be because the gun press totally overdoes it on this pistol.
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 10:10:40 PM EDT
Those who think the 1911 is over rated, don't understand the 1911. 9mm is for "city boys."
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 2:46:41 AM EDT
Over rated pistol: Glock Under rated pistol: CZ-52 Over rated rifle: ??? Maybe a Styer Scout, I haven't shot one yet. Under rated rifle: Mosin-Nagant Hilljack
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 3:33:03 AM EDT
BusMaster--Fallschirmjaegar, Please expound on your statements regarding .45 and the 1911. What handgun and caliber do you own?
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 4:00:29 AM EDT
Overrated pistol: Glocks, in general. Underrated pistol: SIG/Sauer, in general Overrated pistol cartridge: 9mm Underrated pistol cartridge: .41 Magnum Overrated rifle: Winchester Model 70 Underrated rifle: US Carbine, .30 M1 Overrated rifle cart: 7.62x39 Underrated rifle cart: .303 British
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 5:17:27 AM EDT
I have my own opinions on most stuff and think that most fire arms and cartridges have a nitch but the 9mm as a military personal defense round is over rated. Under rated is the Tokorov, pistol and caliber.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 5:39:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Captain Obvious:
Originally Posted By dissipator556: Most overrated pistol: The S&W DAO Airweight Most Underrated Pistol: The Glock 27- it rocks! Most overrated Rifle: The FN FAL- overpriced ...blab blab blab Most Underrated rifle: The Ruger 10/22 Most overrated cartridge in history: Using the .22lr as a "man-stopper." Most underrated cartridge in history: the .380 as a man stopper (.380 killed more people over the last decade than any other caliber-even though I don't think it packs enough punch to do it quickly enough).
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Where was/is your sorce on that 380 stuff?? I would think it would of been 9mm
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38 Special???????
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 6:13:41 AM EDT
Most Overrated Pistol: Desert Eagle in any caliber Most Underrated Pistol: S&W Model 66 .357 magnum. Most Overrated Rifle: HK M91/93/94 Most Underrated Rifle: Winchester M94 .30-30 rifle. Sir Hacksalot
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 6:31:31 AM EDT
I think due to it's sheer numbers the .22 is the most underrated round/rifle/pistol around. I read again just the other day that more prople had been killed with a .22 than all the other calibers combined! If this is true then there is not much room for argument. This may just be Internet wisdom being quoted.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 6:34:23 AM EDT
Overrated rifle- M14: I like them, but the FAL would have served the average grunt better. Underrated rifle- M1 carbine: A great lightweight weapon for close in fighting, the M16 of it's day. Overrated pistol(s)- Glocks: In my extensive experience with them, they are far from the be-all, end-all in reliability, accuracy, or ergonomics. Underrated pistol- Browning HP: Possibly the most ergonomically perfect pistol ever designed, and the MKIII series will feed nearly any bullet profile reliably.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 6:47:51 AM EDT
Overrated handgun/caliber: M92 9mm Underrated " " " " " : Dan Wesson .357 Overrated rifle/caliber : AK47 7.62x39 underrated " " " " " " : M1 .30 carbine Rew
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 7:23:14 AM EDT
Overrated Pistol: H&K USP Underrated Pistol: Browning Hi Power Overrated Rifle: M1A/M14 Underatted Rifle: Savage 10FP Overrated Pistol Cartridge: 357 Mag Underrated Pistol Cartridge: 10mm Overrated Rifle Cartridge: 7.62x39mm Underrated Rifle Cartridge: 223
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:06:17 AM EDT
overrated pistol: Desert Eagle underrated pistol: browning hi-power overrated rifle: ak 47 underrated rifle: Marlin 336 series overrated pistol cart: 45 acp underrated pistol cart: 38 special overatted rifle cart: your favorite magnum underated rifle cart:30-30
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:32:21 AM EDT
Anybody who thinks that the .45 ACP is over-rated needs to go back in history to find out why it was made/designed in the first place. As for the 1911 as the primary weapon that uses it,.... .... [b]ask those who have used it during the war.[/b] Those so called experts who writes articles in gun rags do so in the comforts of their offices and maybe a few sessions at the range under stress free condition. [size=3]Totally different when someone is shooting back at 'ya![/size=3]
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:50:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By riddler: Anybody who thinks that the .45 ACP is over-rated needs to go back in history to find out why it was made/designed in the first place.
It was developed to replace the .38 ( I believe this is the correct caliber) pistols that were not cutting it as man stoppers at the time. It is the people who say the idiotic things about the 45 acp, " kicks like a mule, will put a hole in ya the size of a softball,get hit with that and it will knock ya off your feet" that make it overrated, it doesn't do any of those. Personally I like it but it is overrated that doesn't mean it is bad
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:55:11 AM EDT
Overrated pistol - .40 S&W - Why not just get the 45 acp if you really want a big bore? Accuracy of .40 is not as good as .45 or 9mm, if it's high capacity you want go w/ 9mm w/ some GOOD ammo. Underated pistol - .357 Sig Overrated rifle - .30 carbine for its pathetic trajectory, accuracy & power. Underated rifle - 6.5x55 swede. Not all that popular but damn fine accuracy, flat shooter, moderate recoil.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 9:41:56 AM EDT
Overrated Pistol: Glock(Any) Underrated Pistol: HK P7 series/USP Overrated Rifle: ALL Winchester Lever Actions rifle and carbines Underated Rifle: 7.62x39 AR15 Overated handgun cartridge: 40 S&W Underated handgun cartridge: +9mm Overated rifle cartridge: 30-06 Underated rifle cartridge: Federal TAP 5.56 Just my .02. There are guns I hate more, but they get less PR, there are guns I like more, but they're more popular. Juggernaut[%(]
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 9:46:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 12:55:41 PM EDT
Overrated Rifle) The M1A Underrated Rifle) The Howa 1500 Overrated Pistol) 1911, duh. Underrated pistol) Glock 20 Overrated Rifle Round) .308 168 Gr BT- Accurate as hell, but punches a caliber "through and through" sized hole Underrated Rifle Round) 6.5X55 Swede- Can do anything with handloads. As flexible as the .270 Overrated pistol round- The 9X19 Underrated pistol round- 9X23 McUZI
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 1:08:22 PM EDT
Cmon guys, would you really take a USGI issued 1911 to war over any modern design? I don't like Glocks, but if my life was on the line I would prefer it to a 90 year old gun that doesn't even have a feed ramp. My gunsmith specializes in 1911's and served as a Marine and he would rather take a modern pistol than the old warhorse. Just not as reliable nor enough capacity.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 1:11:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fallschirmjaegar: Cmon guys, would you really take a USGI issued 1911 to war over any modern design?
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Yes. Not only that, but I do. I carry a 1911 every day.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 1:13:21 PM EDT
I damn sure wouldn't volunteer to be shot by a 1911, but there are better guns out there. Just because a Sherman Tank is lethal dosen't mean that it is any good on a modern battlefield.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 2:02:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By o0o: I damn sure wouldn't volunteer to be shot by a 1911, but there are better guns out there.
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Not for me. The gun fits my hand the best, which allows faster and better pointing, and the trigger allows me excellent accuracy. Perhaps someone else, with different hand and wrist shape might be more natural and accurate with another gun, but the 1911 works the best for me.
Just because a Sherman Tank is lethal dosen't mean that it is any good on a modern battlefield.
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Tanks become obsolete because of armor, engine design and electronics. Guns aren't nearly so complicated.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 2:09:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Not for me. The gun fits my hand the best, which allows faster and better pointing, and the trigger allows me excellent accuracy. Perhaps someone else, with different hand and wrist shape might be more natural and accurate with another gun, but the 1911 works the best for me. Tanks become obsolete because of armor, engine design and electronics. Guns aren't nearly so complicated.
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Ergonomics is a valid reason to prefer one design from the other. Yes, tanks are indeed more complicated than small arms, but the point was that certian devices can still accomplish the same task, but often times, one does it more efficently. The 1911, it's capacity and single action design is a couple of steps behind say a Para LDA, which takes the classic 1911 design, and improves it with modern features (IE- DA Trigger, Double Column mag)- While a Colt Peacemaker may be entirely lethal, a Double Action S&W 66 acomplishes the job better.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 2:48:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2001 2:51:48 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
HANGFIRE--- The 1911/.45ACP IS the BEST COMBAT platform/cartridge ever devised, without a doubt. Key word-COMBAT. My preference is the Beretta 96/.40 S&W. I have a 96 Centurion and a Model 96 full size, both FS models, with the decocking safety. I stated the 1911/.45ACP as overrated because I don't believe it is the end-all of pistols for everyone. The US Postal Service is the oldest Law Enforcement agency in the US, and the Border Patrol is the largest, and both of them chose the Beretta 96/.40 S&W for their issue sidearms. There are tests conclusively proving the .40 to be superior in penetration of hard barriers such as automobile sheetmetal and windshield glass, and I think that was one of the parameters leading to the choice. I call the caliber: .40 Sheetmetal & Windshield. (I recently found an article regarding the choice by the Border Patrol, and the program for the test, but, I can't recall which magazine I read it in...it may have been a "HANDGUNS" issue from a while back). It would also explain why this "CityBoy" would choose this combination, albeit I made my choice prior to knowing about the above mentioned agencies. I just like Berettas and I decided the .40 was better than a 9mm at the time, and Beretta hadn't made their .45 yet. Now that Beretta has a .45, I want one. It will operate similarly to my other pistols, so I won't be uncomfortable with the controls. I would get a 1911 someday for my collection, but, would not use it for protection. I can't argue with history or the many who love the 1911, it's just not my favorite. When I used to buy all the Car/HotRod magazines every month, before I got into Firearms, I got REALLY sick of seeing a Camaro or other Chevrolet on the cover of the magazine...ad nauseum. Finally, I found out the Gun magazines are the same way with the 1911. That got old real quick, but, that's what sells the magazines. I wasn't trying to get anyone riled up, but, I kind of expected a response to my "opinion". That's what is so much fun about this Forum...! I read some of the other posts regarding the rifles and cartidges, and noticed the Howa 1500 and the 6.5x55 Swedish listed. I thought about those two also, and have to agree they are certainly underrated.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 2:49:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By o0o: The 1911, it's capacity and single action design is a couple of steps behind say a Para LDA, which takes the classic 1911 design, and improves it with modern features (IE- DA Trigger, Double Column mag)-
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The Browning Hi Power had a double stack mag back in 1935. No one seemed to consider it a necessity. I still don't. More bullets in the mag are nice, but not necessary. 8+1 should be sufficient for any civilian self defense encounter. That said, I do carry a Para Ordnance P12 alloy frame on occasion. As for the LDA, that is NOT, IMHO an advance but rather a concession to lawyers. Single action is (again IMHO) one of the two best actions for a defense handgun, along with the Glock Safe Action.
While a Colt Peacemaker may be entirely lethal, a Double Action S&W 66 acomplishes the job better.
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Not a good comparison. The Smith allows easier loading and a shot with each pull of the trigger. A 1911 and a "modern" DA load the same way and each fire semiauto. One might argue that a 1911 made with modern materials such as titanium or polymer would be an advance, although I prefer steel for its recoil-absorbing properties.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 2:50:56 PM EDT
Overrated handgun:Desert Eagle Overrated handgun load: .44 Mag Underrated handgun:Ruger P series Underrated handgun load: 10mm auto & .41 magnum Overrated rifle: AK Overrated rifle load: 30.06 Underrated rifle: (drew a blank) Underrated rifle load:6mm Remington
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 3:08:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: [b]The Browning Hi Power had a double stack mag back in 1935. No one seemed to consider it a necessity. I still don't. More bullets in the mag are nice, but not necessary. 8+1 should be sufficient for any civilian self defense encounter. That said, I do carry a Para Ordnance P12 alloy frame on occasion. As for the LDA, that is NOT, IMHO an advance but rather a concession to lawyers. Single action is (again IMHO) one of the two best actions for a defense handgun, along with the Glock Safe Action. [/b] I guess the bone of contention is whether you carry your SA 1911 "cocked and Locked" or not. Sure, a cocked and locked 1911 is put into action with equal speed as it's DA counterpart, but 90% of the 1911 guys I know carry chamber-empty, chosing not to risk the enhanced possibillity of blowing thier leg off with a cocked gun. To say that the Draw-Pull-Bang progression of a double action is equally expeditious as the draw-grasp slide-cock-pull-bang process of a single action is dishonest. DA's are faster, and safer than a cocked'n'locked gun. As far as capacity, more rounds is always better than less rounds. Period. Doublestack mag is better than single stack. [b]Not a good comparison. The Smith allows easier loading and a shot with each pull of the trigger. A 1911 and a "modern" DA load the same way and each fire semiauto. One might argue that a 1911 made with modern materials such as titanium or polymer would be an advance, although I prefer steel for its recoil-absorbing properties.
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[/b] Again, the whole cocked'n'locked thing. If you carry your gun cocked, then, yes. They are similar. But if you carry your 1911 empty, then obviously they aren't.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 7:15:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By o0o: I guess the bone of contention is whether you carry your SA 1911 "cocked and Locked" or not. Sure, a cocked and locked 1911 is put into action with equal speed as it's DA counterpart, but 90% of the 1911 guys I know carry chamber-empty, chosing not to risk the enhanced possibillity of blowing thier leg off with a cocked gun.
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Then I would say they need to carry some other kind of gun. Every single person I know who carries a 1911 carries it cocked and locked. IMHO the gun isn't worth carrying if you carry it condition 3...well, hell, IMHO NO gun is worth carrying if you carry it in condition 3.
To say that the Draw-Pull-Bang progression of a double action is equally expeditious as the draw-grasp slide-cock-pull-bang process of a single action is dishonest.
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Well, it would be dishonest if I advocated carrying a 1911 with an empty chamber. I do not, however. If you don't feel comfortable carrying condition one, you should choose a new design IMHO.
DA's are faster, and safer than a cocked'n'locked gun.
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Actually no they aren't. Tests have been done and the SA always comes out on top for speed. As for safety, again, no they aren't. A cocked and locked 1911A1 has three safeties engaged. Most people who carry DA autos carry off safe, leaving only one safety (usually) in place. And people who carry Glocks with a round up the spout don't have any external safeties, although they do have an internal one to guard against.
As far as capacity, more rounds is always better than less rounds. Period. Doublestack mag is better than single stack.
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I will take more rounds if they are available in a gun I am accurate with. If they are not, I will take the single stack. I prefer the feel of a single stack 1911.
Again, the whole cocked'n'locked thing. If you carry your gun cocked, then, yes. They are similar. But if you carry your 1911 empty, then obviously they aren't.
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As I indicated, it is my opinion that there is no other legitimate way to carry a 1911.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 7:39:34 PM EDT
Overrated: 50+ years of spin-you-around-when-hit-on-the-pinky claims of the .45acp Underrated: 2.7mm kolibri auto
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 7:54:54 PM EDT
Some of these 1911 guys would probably prefer taking their .45 to war over an AR-15. Underated: small calibre pistols. I would prefer a Beretta .25 over nothing at all.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 7:56:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SS109: Some of these 1911 guys would probably prefer taking their .45 to war over an AR-15.
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No, but AR15s are very difficult to carry concealed.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 7:57:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2001 8:07:44 PM EDT by gardenWeasel]
For Rik and McUzi, how about a nice 9 X 23 high cap. [img]http://home.earthlink.net/~thegardenweasel/9X23hi.jpg[/img] wish it was mine
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:07:09 PM EDT
Real nice, garden weasel. We were discussing the possibility of a Beretta 10mm Cougar over on BerettaForum.com at one time. Extended bbl.; higher capacity; etc. There is an appeal to this type of firearm, regardless of the platform.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:08:56 PM EDT
So far, everything we have discussed has been splitting hairs over methodology and tactics. Legitimate differences of opinion. But....
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Actually no they aren't. Tests have been done and the SA always comes out on top for speed. As for safety, again, no they aren't. A cocked and locked 1911A1 has three safeties engaged. Most people who carry DA autos carry off safe, leaving only one safety (usually) in place. And people who carry Glocks with a round up the spout don't have any external safeties, although they do have an internal one to guard against.
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I would like to see the tests that claim a cocked'n'locked 1911 is "safer" than a Double Action pistol of any kind. Comparing the 1911's passive safties to the Glockenator system isn't accurate. The Glock has, in essence, a DAO trigger. If you are saying that a cocked 1911 is safer than a 6 pound, 35 degree trigger pull, I would like to see your literature.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:44:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By o0o: I would like to see the tests that claim a cocked'n'locked 1911 is "safer" than a Double Action pistol of any kind. Comparing the 1911's passive safties to the Glockenator system isn't accurate. The Glock has, in essence, a DAO trigger. If you are saying that a cocked 1911 is safer than a 6 pound, 35 degree trigger pull, I would like to see your literature.
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Most 1911s have a trigger pull of about 5-5 1/2lbs. I prefer one of about 4-4 1/2lbs myself, which is what I have on my Gold Match. But you seem to be leaving out the part where the cocked 1911 is also LOCKED. It has an external safety. A Glock doesn't.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 9:00:42 PM EDT
When it comes down to it, I prefer the big safety between my ears to any external safety. I've carried a Glock in condition 1 for years- you could throw the gun against the wall and not have a discharge ( although it's not good for your walls). Carry what conceals and shoots the best for YOU.
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 3:28:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 4:19:27 AM EDT
Over rated: .45 Under rated: 9mm Over rated: AK Under rated: AR
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