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Posted: 8/16/2004 11:38:34 PM EST
There is more to this story (trust me), however, me and you don't have "the need to know"....yet.


Navy says Kennedy jets were damaged in mishap

The Virginian-Pilot
© August 17, 2004

The Navy has acknowledged that two jets were damaged during an incident last month when the carrier John F. Kennedy collided with a fishing dhow in the Persian Gulf.

Navy officials said that the Mayport, Fla.-based carrier made a hard left turn trying to avoid the dhow, causing one plane that had just landed to slide into another that was parked.

An investigation continues into the collision, which resulted in the sinking of the dhow. No survivors or remains from the small boat were recovered. No one in the aircraft, or aboard the Kennedy, was hurt.

The accident occurred at 10:30 p.m. July 22 while the Kennedy was recovering aircraft from an earlier launch, officials have confirmed.

Operating in international waters at night, the Kennedy detected the dhow before it was struck but was in the midst of an F-14 Tomcat landing and maintained its course and speed until the plane landed.

Only then did the ship alter course, causing the carrier to pitch, sending the skidding F-14 into the side of a parked F/A-18 Hornet, according to a statement released Monday by the 5th Fleet in Bahrain.

The investigation is being led by Rear Adm. Evan M. Chanik.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=74445&ran=248839
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:40:59 PM EST
Fuck, another Tomcat damaged. Hopefully it was fixable.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:42:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
There is more to this story (trust me), however, me and you don't have "the need to know"....yet.




Come on, I promise not to tell!

-Was the dhow intentionally in the carriers path?

-Chock full of explosives?

-Drunk helmsman or something?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:48:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
There is more to this story (trust me), however, ****me and you*** don't have "the need to know"....yet.



Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:57:30 PM EST
man I really need to stay up on the news.... didn't even know this had happened!
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 12:05:22 AM EST
www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=22506&archive=true

Search under way after vessel hits USS Kennedy

By Kendra Helmer, Stars and Stripes
European edition, Saturday, July 24, 2004

The U.S. Navy is continuing to search for survivors from a small boat that collided with the USS John F. Kennedy in the Persian Gulf on Thursday.

The aircraft carrier was conducting night-flight missions in support of operations in Iraq when a dhow struck its starboard side at about 10:20 p.m., said Cmdr. Jamie Graybeal, 5th Fleet spokesman, in a telephone interview from Manama, Bahrain.

No Kennedy personnel were injured, and Graybeal said an investigation is under way that may determine how the dhow managed to approach the carrier.

Graybeal said that at this time there is nothing to indicate the incident is anything more than an accident.

The carrier and HMS Somerset, a British warship, launched helicopters and small boats to search for dhow crewmembers. Also assisting are Navy P-3 Orion maritime patrol aircraft from Bahrain.

A debris field has been located, but no survivors or remains have been found. Graybeal said he did not know the size of the dhow or how many people may have been aboard.

The Kennedy, deployed to the U.S. Central Command’s area of responsibility under the command of the 5th Fleet, arrived in the gulf earlier this month. The Mayport, Fla.-based carrier flew its first operational mission in the gulf July 10, Graybeal said.



Originally Posted By LPDtactical:
man I really need to stay up on the news.... didn't even know this had happened!

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:08:07 AM EST
We don't need the mo board for this. We'll just eyeball it in...
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:13:28 AM EST
Prob not much left after going "Under" a 100,000 ton carrier and through those 30' props.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:19:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:54:27 AM EST
<<Navy JAG hat on>>

What was the visibility?

Was the JFK bridge team aware of the presence of the dhow before the collision?

Did JFK attempt Channel 16 Bridge-to-Bridge comms with the dhow at any time? If so, was there a response?

Did the dhow maneuver at any time before the collision?

Why did JFK not give the inbound Tomcat a wave off and go around until they were clear of the dhow?

Was the dhow acting in a suspicious or threatening manner in any way?

Was the Captain of JFK on the bridge at the time of the collision?

Who had the Conn at the time of the collisions? When did he/she take the Conn?

What were the exact rudder/engine orders from the time of first sighting of the dhow until after the collision?

Did the JFK have the dhow in sight BEFORE the ships were determined to be "in extremis"?

What was the course, speed and target angle of the dhow?

At what time, if ever, did the JFK nav team in CIC and pilot hourse recognize that the dhow was CBDR and that the imminent danger of collision existed?

When was the dhow first logged in by the CIC surface module team? Did they run a plot and pass the results and recommendations to the bridge watch team?

Did the OOD call the captain to inform him of the contact?

Were all members of the bridge watch team and CIC surface module team fully qualified to stand those watches?

Was the main propulsion system fully operational at the time of the collision? What was the status of the plant at the time of the collision? How many boilers were on line and connected? How many screws were turning and providing thrust? Was the plant cross-connected? What was the max speed available?

Was the rescue boat launched?

Was the angel helo up at the time of the collision?

Where was the plane guard escort at the time of the collision? Did the escort have the dhow in close control and a track developed?

Why was the escort not used to "shoulder" the dhow away from the path of the CV?

<<Shoot...I could go on all day. There is usually MUCH more to one of these than meets the eye and that must be the case here.>>

A collision at sea can ruin your entire day?
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:57:19 AM EST
Thats gotta be one hell of a sight from the dhow.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:07:01 AM EST

Note to self. Stay away from US aircraft carriers conducting flight ops at night.


I am disturbed that any type of ship can get that close to one of our carriers without our consent.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:13:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 6:15:14 AM EST by u-baddog]

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
Note to self. Stay away from US aircraft carriers conducting flight ops at night.


I am disturbed that any type of ship can get that close to one of our carriers without our consent.



This is what is going to cause the real shit storm.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:02:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
Note to self. Stay away from US aircraft carriers conducting flight ops at night.


I am disturbed that any type of ship can get that close to one of our carriers without our consent.



Yup...that is not good.

I remember playing tag with carriers at night. It was bad enough that the coneheads driving the flattop wouldn't even adhere to their own captain's standing orders and were prone to make crazy maneuvers without calling us up on the radio ahead of time...or JUST as they put their rudder over; no...when they decided to begin flight ops, often all hell broke loose as she searched for the wind. But, that is the law of gross tonnage.

I vividely remember one night on the midwatch when I had the Deck and I had a new enswine on watch with me as JOOD. He had his head buried in the bridge radar repeater, watching the screen and I was glued to the CV 2000 yards ahead, trying to figger out what the hell she was doing.

Sudenly, without sending us the normal and usually required tactical signal, the birdfarm turned hard right, making what ended up being a 270deg turn and about to cut me in half! When I noticed her lights changing, she was already well into the turn (Carriers have so many damn lights it is often difficult to discern the running lights...those light required by law to indicate a ship's status and course.) My JOOD was even slower in figuring out she was turning in on us...and by the time he did, I was already reacting. With scary memories of USS Evans/HMAS Melbourne in my mind, I yelled left full rudder and all engines ahead flank 3! This would put my "ass to the blast" to avoid the danger.

Things were beginning to cascade out of control fast now...

Just as we began our turn and I was buzz-buzz-buzz-buzzing the CO in his cabin to come to the brige NOW, the CV finally called me on bridge-to-bridge radio and asked our course, speed and intentions! SOMNOFABITCHIN CARRIER PUSSY!!! I just kept turning inside of the bastard and kept coming up to speed as fast as my jets could spool up. As I did so, I grabbed the radio mike and told him in a pissed off mood my rudder is LEFT and I'm coming to 30 knots, to course XXX. Since we always did plane guard with all four engines driving both shafts, we were out of Dodge quickly. After we got about 6,000 yards ahead, and the CV was slowing wayyyyyy down, we backed off and returned to station.

Boy...was my CO pissed off. Didn't do anything though...the carrier guy was a very senior O-6 on his way to flag.

Livened up what was otherwise a slow midwatch
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:35:09 AM EST
THe CV was the RAM (restricted in her ability to manuver) vessel and the boat regardless of her type (fishing) was lower on the pecking order. Wouldn't surprise me if the crew was down below asleep or drunk.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:52:38 AM EST
yeah, how did a little boat get that close? but even if the little boat was somehow authorized to be there it better realize mr big ass aircraft carrier is not going to stop for him.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:58:30 AM EST
ok who else just saw "KENNEDY RAN IT OVER" and clicked here expecting more drunken driving tales with teddy?

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 10:14:01 AM EST
I'm suprised it was allowed to get past the escorts too...

That could have been bad news if someone was trying to pull another 'Cole' on us, but this time blew up a CV...
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 10:17:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:
Maybe they should rename it the "Ted Kennedy".

Sorry, I know that was bad...




how about the "Cutty Sark"
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 10:51:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:
Maybe they should rename it the "Ted Kennedy".

Sorry, I know that was bad...


There is more to this story (trust me), however, me and you don't have "the need to know"....yet.


Would like to know the rest of the story though.



Kennedy works fine . . .

Teds isn't the only Kennedy with "issues" operating vehicles. JFK got his boat run over, a brother & son had plane "issues", and some cousin had a run-in with a tree while skiing . . .

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 12:08:00 PM EST
Did I see a brown shoe input? Restricted in her ability to maneuver? that has applied to the John F. Canopener since she was launched.

I sure as hell wouldn't assume that a dhow could recognize the RAM lights on a carrier at night.

The safe assumption is that the dhow is on Iron Mike and isn't going to maneuver, in other words expecting a dhow to maneuver in accordance with YOUR interpretation of the rules is like assuming that Aviators follow the rules about hooch on board. (Spare me the sob stories about they really deserve it). The safe assumption is that the carrier bridge team has minimal time as a bridge team and is used to getting their own way. Rule of Gross Tonnage and Brown Shoes conning.

One of my reserve unit XO's was Navigator on the Evans and had just moved his stateroom the week before and survived, he shows up in the movies of the incident. I was also on a Belknap class cruiser and saw what the JFK could do to a friend.

We had "Barber's Iron Box" when plane guarding, no closer than 5000yds ahead, 2000yds abeam or 1000 yards astern unless the CO was on the bridge, if in any doubt call the CO, turn away and add speed. Woe be unto any OOD, JOOD and the CICWO if the box was violated. The turn away and add speed applied whenever a carrier was in sight.

Like it or not, you can't blow up any civilian vessel that just happens to be ther, it sounds nice in a counter-terrorism mode, but doesn't work in reality. In international waters, they have as much right to be there as you do. (To wit see my previous discussions on the Liberty and why the attack was illegal, not to mention ill-advised. Also tactically and strategically a failure, the target remained floating but that's another discussion.)

However running over other ships is a bad habit that carriers are well known for, and the crew on the dhow should have been worried about that once they saw the bird farm come over the horizon. If a carrier can hit an innocent victim it will, is a primary Law of the Sea that every sailor should learn.

The carrier (don't assume you are stand-on and take no actions)should have made adjustments early and watched what the dhow did, if it maneuvered to decrease the cpa, assume hostile and take appropriate actions to avoid. A little forehandedness could have avoided this.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:40:34 AM EST
Was the dhow loaded with explosives? How did it get so close to the carrier without being detected?

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:14:39 PM EST
Don't know, we'll probably know more after the Skipper of the Kennedy has been fired....


Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
Was the dhow loaded with explosives? How did it get so close to the carrier without being detected?

GunLvr

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:20:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:54:09 PM EST
What the hell happened to the carrier's escort screen? Given the current world conditions, one of the escorts should have engaged the ship with the 5 inch mount, or at least given a warning shot that would wake up those drunken/sleeping fucks on the fishing boat. They are there to protect the carrier, correct?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:00:36 PM EST
Allah Akbar!!!!!....blub
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:28:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:
What the hell happened to the carrier's escort screen? Given the current world conditions, one of the escorts should have engaged the ship with the 5 inch mount, or at least given a warning shot that would wake up those drunken/sleeping fucks on the fishing boat. They are there to protect the carrier, correct?



We don't have enough ships to provide the carriers the same number of escorts as we did 15 years ago. And forget everything you've seen from WWII movies there is no curtain of steel around a carrier.

A ship or boat in international waters not showing hostile intent, just severe stupidity, fairly close to a carrier doesn't not warrant the death penalty. An explosive laden dhow isn't really a threat to a ship designed to take Soviet cruise missiles and still launch planes.

Bridge to bridge? Ever try to contact a dhow on BTB? If it's even on, they mainly use it to talk about where the fising is good and how much they caught that day. They have no concept of a working channel, and contrary to international rules they rarely have an English speaker.

I remember a couple of years ago playing OPFOR for KENNEDY the whole battle group just about ran over a small sailboat. The sailboat was just out there floating along when a battle group and just about the entire OPFOR were all manuevering with a three mile radius of the poor guy.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:43:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By dport:

We don't have enough ships to provide the carriers the same number of escorts as we did 15 years ago. And forget everything you've seen from WWII movies there is no curtain of steel around a carrier.

A ship or boat in international waters not showing hostile intent, just severe stupidity, fairly close to a carrier doesn't not warrant the death penalty. An explosive laden dhow isn't really a threat to a ship designed to take Soviet cruise missiles and still launch planes.



That's messed up man. How much more do carriers cost now? And they are protected with less escorts then their World War 2 counterparts?

Death penalty aside, in a combat zone, the rules have to change a little. Especially considering the nature of the combat. At the least, a warning shot over their bow would have gotten their attention. But probably no one here has the details of the situation, although the whole story will probably come out sooner or later. No use second-guessing until then.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 8:38:09 PM EST
This is fucking ironic. Kennedy's revenge??


Kennedy gets run over by Japanese destroyer.

USS Kennedy runs over dhow.


[homer] dhow! [/homer]
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 8:58:07 PM EST
I was in the CBG the Kennedy relieved. We had a grand total of 4 actual warships, including the carrier, in the battle group. One CV, one DDG, one FFG, and the CVN.

And, I recall many a time we cruised by one of these dhows with less than 500 yards to spare. I used to watch them go by from the hanger bay .
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:49:54 PM EST
Not sure exactly where the incident occured but the sake of discussion, I'll assume that the area was not and is not a Combat Zone in actuality or legally. In other words, ships (including dhows) on their lawful occasion in International Waters, especially those of neutrals and/or non-combatants (you know like the Liberty) are not liable to be sunk with or without warning just because they happen to be in the area.

In conditions short of total war, when everything floating in the enemies zone is assumed hostile and a target - example being WWII in the Pacific. If it was up around Japan for most of the war, it was theirs and a target. Is it really that easy, NO, for example in European waters and the Med, the UK, France, Germany, Italy and the US operated submarines and other small combatants, merchant shipping, etc. (and don't forget neutral Spain) Recognition and identification , obviously becomes a major challenge. Clearly, the Gulf Waters are far more similar to the the Med for most of the war, not Japanese waters.

There are a variety of ways you can declare the area a combat zone or exclusion area, these methods include declaring MerZones, and the countries and Navies in the area know how to do it, and the diplomatic mechanism is in place. That said would the the countries be actually able to exert control over the dhow fleets? Probably not. In other words, it's up to the CVBG commander to sanitize the waters around his ships.

I think we can safely assume that a variety of people failed in their assigned duties. Lookouts on the carrier and all the other ships should have seen and reported the contact, CICs should have been tracking it based on both visual reporting and possibly radar plots, bridge conning teams should have been visually tracking it up until it became obscured by ship structure, and they (hopefully) have enough lookouts reporting.

That said even if all the radars are working, and all the lookouts are working correctly, if there are a shitload of contacts, keeping things correctedly correlated between radar contacts, NTDS type automatic contact tracking, and visual report aint eassy. As a JG, I once respectiably told an embarked Admiral to go ask his staff Sr Chief OS, who was sitting at the Flag Plot NTDS console for CPA (Closest Point of Approach) information for other ships in the column, I was just too damn busy tracking contacts headed for US and OUR ship , and reporting and coordinating with our bridge, the other ships were responsible for themselve. We were heading into Hong Kong at the time, I was Shipping Officer in CIC, and we were going to be tying up at the military headquaarters and the amphibs were all going to be anchoring out. The Admiral thanked me for reminding him that he did have his own assets for that info. luckily my Ops Boss went over and helped him. If too many cooks were stirring the soup, it could get really confusing quick.

You probably have at least one Admiral and staff on board. Carrier Group , maybe another for the Battle Group if not the same, maybe an area CINC, and then you have an Aviator as the Carrier CO, and a whole bunch of officers from both the carrier crew and probably some embarked Air Group officers trying to get their CIC and Bridge qualifications completed, and the actual OOD, JOOD, maybe Assistant JOODs, or JOODs Under Instruction. Like it or not the guys running the show as far as driving are probably not really career experienced ship drivers like you find on most of the other ships. and when things start to get confusing, the bubble can get dropped.

Remember your first driving lessons?

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:08:07 AM EST
I can tell you this but not much more.....

The accident was under review by an admiral sent from the Pentagon on board the Kennedy.
He has since left, but the investigation continues.

The Kennedy had been in the Gulf only for 12 days when it struck the dhow during night flight operations. It was the "night shift" carrier.
Current Gulf carrier ops have one ship taking the lead from 7am to 7 pm (day shift), and one taking the lead from 7pm to 7am (night shift).
During those times the work schedule is flipped, meaning that the night shift boat is running duty section watches during the day as most of the crew sleeps.

Someone on the Kennedy’s crew spotted the dhow, but not a watch (oops).

The ship was maneuvering to avoid contact with the dhow, but had to wait to recover the F-14.
I guess the F-14 was really on final - meaning that it was probably over the fantail when the dhow was spotted, and once it was aboard the ship when hard rudder over.
More than just the two aircraft got messed up, I heard that a lot of "gear adrift" went flying.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:22:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By LWilde:
I remember playing tag with carriers at night. It was bad enough that the coneheads driving the flattop wouldn't even adhere to their own captain's standing orders and were prone to make crazy maneuvers without calling us up on the radio ahead of time...or JUST as they put their rudder over; no...when they decided to begin flight ops, often all hell broke loose as she searched for the wind. But, that is the law of gross tonnage.

I vividely remember one night on the midwatch when I had the Deck and I had a new enswine on watch with me as JOOD. He had his head buried in the bridge radar repeater, watching the screen and I was glued to the CV 2000 yards ahead, trying to figger out what the hell she was doing.

Sudenly, without sending us the normal and usually required tactical signal, the birdfarm turned hard right, making what ended up being a 270deg turn and about to cut me in half! When I noticed her lights changing, she was already well into the turn (Carriers have so many damn lights it is often difficult to discern the running lights...those light required by law to indicate a ship's status and course.) My JOOD was even slower in figuring out she was turning in on us...and by the time he did, I was already reacting. With scary memories of USS Evans/HMAS Melbourne in my mind, I yelled left full rudder and all engines ahead flank 3! This would put my "ass to the blast" to avoid the danger.

Things were beginning to cascade out of control fast now...

Just as we began our turn and I was buzz-buzz-buzz-buzzing the CO in his cabin to come to the brige NOW, the CV finally called me on bridge-to-bridge radio and asked our course, speed and intentions! SOMNOFABITCHIN CARRIER PUSSY!!! I just kept turning inside of the bastard and kept coming up to speed as fast as my jets could spool up. As I did so, I grabbed the radio mike and told him in a pissed off mood my rudder is LEFT and I'm coming to 30 knots, to course XXX. Since we always did plane guard with all four engines driving both shafts, we were out of Dodge quickly. After we got about 6,000 yards ahead, and the CV was slowing wayyyyyy down, we backed off and returned to station.

Boy...was my CO pissed off. Didn't do anything though...the carrier guy was a very senior O-6 on his way to flag.

Livened up what was otherwise a slow midwatch



I think that may have been a good story. Next time please remember some of us dont speak Navy, hell we struggle at Engrish.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:29:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 12:29:35 AM EST by CavVet]

Originally Posted By KA3B:
I guess the F-14 was really on final - meaning that it was probably over the fantail when the dhow was spotted, and once it was aboard the ship when hard rudder over.
More than just the two aircraft got messed up, I heard that a lot of "gear adrift" went flying.



IS this where someone inserts that pic of a carrier "on two wheels" doing a hard ass turn?

Man I wish you semen (sorry) seamen spoke english.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 1:40:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 1:42:24 AM EST by LWilde]

Originally Posted By CavVet:


Sorry...you are entirely correct. I'll try to fix...


Originally Posted By LWilde:
I remember playing tag with carriers at night. It was bad enough that the coneheads driving the flattop The bridge watch on the carrier. wouldn't even adhere to their own captain's standing orders written orders by the CO directing his bridge and combat information center teams how to drive his ship and exactly what to do in just about every possible situation involving safe navigation and in the case of the carrier, flight ops. All of the watchstanders must read and sign acknowledging they've done so. Then, you are liable under the law if something goes wrong.)and were prone to make crazy maneuvers without calling us up on the radio ahead of time...or JUST as they put their rudder over; no...when they decided to begin flight ops, often all hell broke loose as she searched for the wind. But, that is the law of gross tonnage.

I vividely remember one night on the midwatch 0000-0400when I had the Deck Officer of The Deck, the man in charge of everything while the CO is off the bridge. Legally responsible and ACCOUNTABLE under the law.and I had a new enswine and ensign...an O-1 butter bar in the Army...newby on watch with me as JOOD Junior Officer of the Deck...under instruction dude.. He had his head buried in the bridge radar repeater, watching the screen and I was glued to the CV the carrier2000 yards ahead, trying to figger out what the hell she was doing.

Sudenly, without sending us the normal and usually required tactical signal, the birdfarm carrierturned hard right, making what ended up being a 270deg turn 3/4 of a full circleand about to cut me in half! When I noticed her lights changing, ships are required by law to have certain lights on the hull and masts that show other ships your target angle...or course relative to the ship looking at you. The problem with carriers is that they also have lots of deck, hanger and island lights which can sometimes confuse escorts trying to stay in position but not get run over!she was already well into the turn (Carriers have so many damn lights it is often difficult to discern the running lights...those light required by law to indicate a ship's status and course.) My JOOD was even slower in figuring out she was turning in on us...and by the time he did, I was already reacting. With scary memories of USS Evans/HMAS Melbourne On 3 June 1969, Melbourne cut the Evans in half, killing 73 American sailors. The investigation determined that most of the blame was due to the poor seamanship and multiple mistakes on the part of the bridge watch team in Evans. in my mind, I yelled left full rudder and all engines ahead flank 3as fast as you can go in a Spruance class destroyer! This would put my "ass to the blast" to avoid the danger.

Things were beginning to cascade out of control fast now...

Just as we began our turn and I was buzz-buzz-buzz-buzzing the CO in his cabin to come to the brige NOW, the CV finally called me on bridge-to-bridge radio and asked our course, speed and intentions! SOMNOFABITCHIN CARRIER PUSSY!!! I just kept turning inside of the bastard and kept coming up to speed as fast as my jets main propulsion on a Spruance consists of four LM-2500 gas turbines. These are modified GE CF6 jet engines designed to put out 20k shaft HP. Each screw has two engines. Normal cruising is on one or two engines. When operating with a carrier we used all four...just in case.could spool up. As I did so, I grabbed the radio mike and told him in a pissed off mood my rudder is LEFT and I'm coming to 30 knots, to course XXX. Since we always did plane guard with all four engines driving both shafts, we were out of Dodge quickly. After we got about 6,000 yards ahead, and the CV was slowing wayyyyyy down, we backed off and returned to station.

Boy...was my CO pissed off. Didn't do anything though...the carrier guy was a very senior O-6 on his way to flag.

Livened up what was otherwise a slow midwatch




I think that may have been a good story. Next time please remember some of us dont speak Navy, hell we struggle at Engrish.


Does this help?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 2:37:51 AM EST
Helped a million! I really understood and man, what a scary picture!

Im glad you were paying attention. I wonder if there are stats on how many O-1's get people killed?

Thankx!

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:07:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By LWilde:

Does this help?



Wow, I did follow the original story but that director's commentary was awesome!
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:13:15 AM EST
The Capt of the Kennedy just had his entire carrer flushed, he will never make Admiral now
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:40:49 AM EST
I guess I'm one of the few people in the world that can say I've been in a collision at sea (but not the Kennedy one). For example, how many ppl do you know have been in an air crash?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:01:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By reef_runner:
I guess I'm one of the few people in the world that can say I've been in a collision at sea (but not the Kennedy one). For example, how many ppl do you know have been in an air crash?



An actual "crash"? Well.....I know two people, instructor and student, who had to make a partial gear-up landing in a piper something-or-other......that was sort of a crash, although a semi-controlled one. Main gear came down and locked, nose gear didn't lock. I think they finally blamed the maintnance guy for not doing something right.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:29:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By CavVet:
Helped a million! I really understood and man, what a scary picture!

Im glad you were paying attention. I wonder if there are stats on how many O-1's get people killed?

Thankx!




They are NEVER supposed to be put in a position where their limited knowledge and experience puts their fellow crewmembers at great risk. Occasionally, a water-walker will join the ship and prove himself to the CO well enough to be left alone to drive the ship...but usually it takes a couple of years and another stripe to qualify.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:42:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
The Capt of the Kennedy just had his entire carrer flushed, he will never make Admiral now



Possibly not...

Usually you are entirely correct. A collision at sea usually is the death knell of the CO's career.

There may be some mitigating circumstances here though.

Go back and read my long list of what the JAG officers are going to ask at the Court of Inquiry.

Did Kennedy ever "see" the dhow...either on radar or visually? If the small boat was never seen at all until the last second, then it might be a factor.

Where was the ship operating? Was she being operated in a safe manner in STRICT accordance with the COLREGS?...The "Rules of the Road"?

If the investigation finds deriliction of duty or negligence on the part of the crew, or material failure that can be attributed to poor maintenance on the part of the crew...then yes, the CO is likely headed ashore permanently.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:56:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:
That's messed up man. How much more do carriers cost now? And they are protected with less escorts then their World War 2 counterparts?


The real question is how much more do the escorts cost. 5in guns are cheap; Aegis is expensive.


Death penalty aside, in a combat zone, the rules have to change a little. Especially considering the nature of the combat. At the least, a warning shot over their bow would have gotten their attention. But probably no one here has the details of the situation, although the whole story will probably come out sooner or later. No use second-guessing until then.

The Persian Gulf is not a combat zone. The ROE over there closely resembles the ROE anywhere else in the world. I'm not sure warning shots are a good idea during flight operations. I seem to remeber aviators being fanatics about FOD.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:04:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Not sure exactly where the incident occured but the sake of discussion, I'll assume that the area was not and is not a Combat Zone in actuality or legally. In other words, ships (including dhows) on their lawful occasion in International Waters, especially those of neutrals and/or non-combatants (you know like the Liberty) are not liable to be sunk with or without warning just because they happen to be in the area.



Very true.


In conditions short of total war, when everything floating in the enemies zone is assumed hostile and a target - example being WWII in the Pacific. If it was up around Japan for most of the war, it was theirs and a target. Is it really that easy, NO, for example in European waters and the Med, the UK, France, Germany, Italy and the US operated submarines and other small combatants, merchant shipping, etc. (and don't forget neutral Spain) Recognition and identification , obviously becomes a major challenge. Clearly, the Gulf Waters are far more similar to the the Med for most of the war, not Japanese waters.


Again very true. What you say matches my experience having just come from the Persian Gulf a little over a month ago.


There are a variety of ways you can declare the area a combat zone or exclusion area, these methods include declaring MerZones, and the countries and Navies in the area know how to do it, and the diplomatic mechanism is in place. That said would the the countries be actually able to exert control over the dhow fleets? Probably not. In other words, it's up to the CVBG commander to sanitize the waters around his ships.


I don't think anyone has control over the dhows. It's like hearding cats. We controlled dhows in a limited area, but it took more surface units than are assigned to a CVBG now and their associated small boats and their helos.


I think we can safely assume that a variety of people failed in their assigned duties.

I don't think that assumption can be made. If you've ever dealt with dhows, and I just got back from 6 months of dealing exclusively with cargo and fishing dhows, you know they are not good radar targets and they rarely display the proper lighting scheme. If they display lights at all.


Lookouts on the carrier and all the other ships should have seen and reported the contact, CICs should have been tracking it based on both visual reporting and possibly radar plots, bridge conning teams should have been visually tracking it up until it became obscured by ship structure, and they (hopefully) have enough lookouts reporting.


Should have, in a perfect world. What was the background lighting? Was it pitch black? Was the dhow's lights, if they had any, lost in the background of the numerous oil platform lights? What were the environmentals? Was there a bunch of radar clutter? Did the operators set the gain down to where small radar targets, like dhows, may have been over looked.


That said even if all the radars are working, and all the lookouts are working correctly, if there are a shitload of contacts, keeping things correctedly correlated between radar contacts, NTDS type automatic contact tracking, and visual report aint eassy. As a JG, I once respectiably told an embarked Admiral to go ask his staff Sr Chief OS, who was sitting at the Flag Plot NTDS console for CPA (Closest Point of Approach) information for other ships in the column, I was just too damn busy tracking contacts headed for US and OUR ship , and reporting and coordinating with our bridge, the other ships were responsible for themselve. We were heading into Hong Kong at the time, I was Shipping Officer in CIC, and we were going to be tying up at the military headquaarters and the amphibs were all going to be anchoring out. The Admiral thanked me for reminding him that he did have his own assets for that info. luckily my Ops Boss went over and helped him. If too many cooks were stirring the soup, it could get really confusing quick.


True, and you sir have some big ones.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:39:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By reef_runner:
I guess I'm one of the few people in the world that can say I've been in a collision at sea (but not the Kennedy one). For example, how many ppl do you know have been in an air crash?



My wife survived a plane crash...I wonder if that makes it almost statistically impossible to happen again???
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 11:19:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 11:20:10 AM EST by The_Neutral_Observer]

Originally Posted By dport:



Sounds like a bloody mess over there in the Gulf.

Restricted waters, oil platforms, neutral merchants, dumbass arabs in junky little boats...
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 11:27:12 AM EST
Now.....a question about the "rules of the road"

CVN meets sailboat under similar circumstances as above (call it a 50-60' yacht, with a 2-4 person 'crew' who have been sailing overnight with the boat on autopilot)

Which one is burdened? The sailboat traditionally has the right of way since it is usually deemed the "less manuverable" vessel, however, a 60' sailboat can still change course a hell of a lot faster than a 100,000+ ton carrier, especially with an aircraft on final.

So who's supposed to move?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 11:30:21 AM EST
and then there's the old story about the argument heard over the radio...

voice 1: "you change course"

voice: 2: "no, you change course"

voice 1: "now you listen, I'm a battleship, YOU change course"

voice 2: "YOU listen. I'm a lighthouse"

<silence>
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:18:46 PM EST
My CG had the CV escort ops for the JFK back in 2000, the DHow's were really hard to detect even with Aegis radar and our sonar suite. Being made out of wood and having sails makes them a little stealthy to both. Lookouts should have seen him on NVGs or maybe a FLIR on an aircraft or mast mounted.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:17:31 PM EST
Never had the pleasure of playing dodge dhow, but I spent enough time with banca boats around the Philippines, dugout canoes longline fishing, you'd get too close and they'ld fire off a Coleman type lantern. Many, especially close to Subic, would figure out(or try) how close you were going to come and not light up, and then get scared and light up when you were almost on top of them. Japanese and Korean (both) fishing boats would often put drifting seines out and not bother to light them adequaately or legally and sometimes close like hell to rescue their nets before you ran into it. the wild ones were the Japanese fishing boats that would speed up and cut close across your bow so that the evil spirits following them would get brushed off onto you. Not that was scary, our CO had been stationed in Japan before and was used to it. You just held course and speed and let them do it. they were good enough to get away with it. I have a picture I took looking down from the bullnose (ring on the extreme point of the bow where mooring or tow lines are run) straight down on to the fantail of the boat.

As far as having a pair, well maybe bigger than the ringknockers academy grads but my letter was in and accepted at the time, but all it was was "Pardon me, sir, but Sr. Chief xxx at the flag console can get you that information faster than I can, I'm tracking our solutions here."

Having a Staff infection, ummh, I mean having a Admiral and Staff embarked , was a challenge at times. We had them on board when the orders were to avoid picking up boat people at almost all costs. Carter and the State Department were convinced that if we made a major effort to not rescue them the VC and North Vietnamese were humanitarian enough not to let them sail. Wrong, that only made the NV happier to let them sail since it greatly increased there likelihood of dying at sea. (That policy, the way the Navy accepted it and a few other things convinced me to resign my Active commission, stayed and retired from the Reserves though). Our CO (an O-6)was bucking for Admiral and our XO had transferred off the Staff, so they were pretty tight with the Staff and the Staff was tight with CINCPAC, etc. We finally ran into a group that we couldn't avoid. I was CICWO (Combat Information Center Watch Officer)and Ship's Intel Officer, "Rules of Engagement" International Laws/Rules" expert (This is why I took on that Israeli ground pounder, in addition to knowing Capt. Mcgonigal, he might have known RoE for Rockthrowing kids, but he knew squat about the seas and ships.). So out Night Orders were to wake up the Ops Boss, held come up to CIC, he'ld relief me and I would go wake up the XO, he'ld have me wake up the Chief of Staff (CSO actually - Bud Edney as a matter of fact), Capt Edney would get up. pull his trousers on over his skivvies and go over and wake up the Admiral to tell him what was happening. After briefing an O-5 or two, two O-6s and an O-7 all in trousers, undershirts, and flip-flops, in the middle of the night, things relaxed a bit. Used to get a little touchy when the Staff Watch Officers interacted directly with our Watch Officers about our shipdriving.

Stopping an aircraft carrier is similar to trying to stop a mile long freight train when somebody is stalled on the tracks. You smile and wave at the wreckage as you go by.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:34:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
I can tell you this but not much more.....



I have enough insight into the investigation to tell you the rest of the story: *SHIT HAPPENS*
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