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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/30/2002 11:36:44 AM EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- China and Russia have faced repeated U.S. sanctions for their arms sales, but a largely unheralded player in what Washington considers the troubling proliferation game is Israel, one of the closest U.S. allies. The Jewish state, recipient annually of $3 billion in U.S. aid, is second only to Russia as a weapons provider to China, U.S. congressional investigators say. Some experts fear sensitive U.S. technology may show up via Israel in systems sold by China to Iran and North Korea, which President George W. Bush termed "axis of evil" states after the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. "Israel ranks second only to Russia as a weapons system provider to China and as a conduit for sophisticated military technology, followed by France and Germany," according to a recent report by the U.S.-China Security Review Commission, a panel established by Congress to examine security and economic relations between the two countries. "Recent upgrades in target acquisition and fire control, probably provided by Israeli weapons specialists, have enhanced the capabilities of the older guided missile destroyers and frigates" in the Chinese navy's inventory, it said. The commission, which holds hard-line views on China, cited Israel as a supplier to Beijing of radar systems, optical and telecommunications equipment, drones and flight simulators. This creates an ironic possibility: In the event of war, China, with weapons supplied or enhanced by Israel that may have been supplied or enhanced by the United States, would face Taiwan, armed with U.S.-made jets and other military hardware. In November 2000, China promised not to assist any country in developing ballistic missiles that could be used to deliver nuclear weapons and to enact strict export-control rules. But Beijing only just now published the export rules and in the interim, the CIA said Chinese firms provided dual-use missile-related items, raw materials, and/or assistance to several countries of proliferation concern, including Iran, North Korea, and Libya. Two senior U.S. officials told Reuters there has been little attention given to China-Israel arms ties since Bush took office. Issues that could draw criticism of Israel are sensitive in America, where pro-Israel interests wield considerable clout. "It is a concern when anybody sells the Chinese advanced systems -- and the Israeli systems are very advanced -- that we might, at one point, find ourselves opposite those systems in the hands of the Chinese," said one senior U.S. official. The Washington Times in July said U.S. intelligence identified an Israeli-made anti-radar weapon, the unmanned "Harpy" drone, deployed with Chinese forces opposite Taiwan. Added a senior U.S. official, "Before the Israelis get in another situation where they are crosswise with us, they'll think twice about it -- the last flap still reverberates." Six years ago, U.S. government reports accused Israel of illegally transferring U.S. technology from the largely U.S.-funded Lavi fighter plane program to China. China's new F-10 fighter jet is said to be nearly identical to the Lavi.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:15:43 PM EDT
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/02/usmil0215.htm So...what's your point Adolf98...errrr...I mean Kar98...
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:17:58 PM EDT
I always liked the Chinese. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:27:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:31:28 PM EDT
I am with Shotar, we just need to leave the Chinese alone and stop asking any questions. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:35:18 PM EDT
[b]Golly Gee !! Not an 'Israel Firster' in site (sight) ??[/b]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:41:48 PM EDT
You know I always liked to help out those Palestinians as much as I could. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:46:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By William_J_Clinton: You know I always liked to help out those Palestinians as much as I could. Bill C. [smoke]
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Look Bill, get your story straight. [b]Last I heard you were gonna have your Secret Service detail die in a ditch to protect Israel !![/b]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:48:36 PM EDT
That's what I said, but don't be fooled my friend. You should pay attention to my actions, not my words. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:53:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By William_J_Clinton: That's what I said, but don't be fooled my friend. You should pay attention to my actions, not my words. Bill C. [smoke]
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Fair enough. From now on I'll observe your actions through Monica's head !! NO, NO - I mean through Monica's eyes !!
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 1:56:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By William_J_Clinton: That's what I said, but don't be fooled my friend. You should pay attention to my actions, not my words. Bill C. [smoke]
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Fair enough. From now on I'll observe your actions through Monica's head !! NO, NO - I mean through Monica's eyes !!
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Here again this argument loses it's validity due to it's resort to a type of name calling. You should have relied on the fact that I always asked Isreal to concede land to Palestine. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:00:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By William_J_Clinton:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By William_J_Clinton: That's what I said, but don't be fooled my friend. You should pay attention to my actions, not my words. Bill C. [smoke]
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Fair enough. From now on I'll observe your actions through Monica's head !! NO, NO - I mean through Monica's eyes !!
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Here again this argument loses it's validity due to it's resort to a type of name calling. You should have relied on the fact that I always asked Isreal to concede land to Palestine. Bill C. [smoke]
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I'll check with Monica, Sox and the spirit of Buddy-the-Dog and get back on this.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:04:00 PM EDT
Please leave Buddy out of this, he is an innocent friend. I miss him still. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:05:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:08:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar: I didn't know rubber pads constituted sophisticated technology?
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I quite agree. But the original post was talking about target acquisition and fire control, radar systems, optical and telecommunications equipment, drones and flight simulators, an Israeli-made anti-radar weapon, the unmanned "Harpy", and China's new F-10 fighter jet, said to be nearly identical to the largely U.S.-funded Lavi fighter plane.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:13:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar: I was thinking of subdudes earlier post regarding tank treads. At any rate I really know only what I read about the aircraft technology sales. It would however seem inappropriate to sell this sort of technology to China. On the other hand it may not be all dumb. If they have our technology perhaps they also installed our back doors to that technology. Is it better that the use a technology with weaknesses known to us, or that they develope their own that we are less familiar with. How Machiavellian.
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Perhaps it may be difficult to exploit a hypothetical weakness ?? You can bet the Chinese will do the obligatory 20% mod/enhancement.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:14:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shotar: How Machiavellian.
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Dammit! I had this really nice quote from "the Prince" that made your post look utterly stupid, but by the time the page loaded, it slipped my mind entirely. *kicks up sand* Here, that's all I can deliver at the moment. Please feel properly insulted, if you please.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:39:51 PM EDT
Buddy committed suicide! He had enough of that loveless bitter power first family as well as all that bullshit that was flying around. He also got nervous when that chinese guy kept coming by the new place in NY and dropping off bags of money.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:40:08 PM EDT
Hmmmm, I think we have more reason to believe that the US can trust Israel more than it can trust, say, former President Bill Clinton. At least insofar as giving any sort of secrets away to the Chi-Coms. And there's a whole list of good old-fashioned American companies that were eager to sell their technologies to Beijing for the almighty Dollar. What are the poor Israelis to think? Eric The(Huh?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:41:32 PM EDT
I'm starting to think you guys don't like me. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:49:22 PM EDT
I always knew Clinton was a [:K]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 2:54:17 PM EDT
Please as I have stated before I am no troll. I only offer you more information, that you may learn something new. Bill C. [smoke]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 3:21:12 PM EDT
EricThe(IsraelDamageControl)Hun
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 3:46:33 PM EDT
How dare you all question Israeli motives for turning U.S. weapons technology to the Chinese. You must all be [i]anti-semites[/i]. [IMG]http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif[/IMG] [(:|)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 4:26:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PoliticalScience: How dare you all question Israeli motives for turning U.S. weapons technology to the Chinese. You must all be [i]anti-semites[/i]. [IMG]http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif[/IMG] [(:|)]
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[:D]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 4:30:40 PM EDT
What were the Americans' motives for selling rocket technology to China? What was Clinton's motive for permitting Doral and the other US companies to sell technology to China? What was the Clinton's Administration's motive for changing the final authority on technology sales to foreign countries from the Department of Defense to the Department of Commerce? Hmmm, am I just being anti-American, now? Eric The(IThinkNot)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 4:34:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: What were the Americans' motives for selling rocket technology to China? What was Clinton's motive for permitting Doral and the other US companies to sell technology to China? What was the Clinton's Administration's motive for changing the final authority on technology sales to foreign countries from the Department of Defense to the Department of Commerce? Eric The(Not)Hun[>]:)]
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[b]Money ??[/b]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 4:35:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2002 4:39:01 PM EDT by mattja]
You have to ask yourself what reason does Israel have not to sell technology to China? They have to weigh the chances of those same weapons being used against them. They also have worry about losing US aid. Perhaps they feel the odds of the US cutting off aid is so low, they can do whatever they like with impunity? Or perhaps they feel the profit potential from selling weapons is far greater than US aid? My feeling is they are convinced their actions will never come back to haunt them. They could be wrong. They are a sovereign nation and have the right to trade with whomever they please. That does not mean that there will not be repercussions or that their actions will not hurt them in the long run.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 4:39:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: Perhaps they feel the odds of the US cutting off aid is so low, they can do whatever they like with impunity?
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bingo
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 4:42:21 PM EDT
I don't care for [u][b]anyone[/b][/u] that gives U.S. weapons technology to the Chinese. My assessment: Bill Clinton (gives technology to Chinese) = Piece of Shit Israeli Politicians (gives technology to Chinese) = Piece(s) of Shit I will make apologies for neither. [(:|)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 4:51:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2002 5:19:09 PM EDT by EricTheHun]
Post from PoliticalScience -
Bill Clinton (gives technology to Chinese) = Piece of Shit Israeli Politicians (gives technology to Chinese) = Piece(s) of Shit
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Actually, [b]PoliticalScience[/b], it was not Israeli politicians that sold anything to the Red Chinese, but Israeli companies. In 1996, the Israeli government notified the Clinton Administration that it had been asked by an Israeli company for a license to export the Phlacon air warning system to Red China. Instead of dissuading the Israeli government from granting the license, the Clinton Administration sat on its hands and proceeded to let the Phalcon deal go through. Suddenly, in 2000, and a US Election year, the Clinton Administration determined that selling the Phalcon system to Red China probably wasn't a good idea, and instructed Israel to withdraw its license. Which Israel promptly did, even though even more sensitive technology was still being sold by the US to Red China with the Clinton Adminsitration's blessing.
I will make apologies for neither.
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You don't have to. The Israelis stopped when requested. The US companies?? Well, who knows? And, if you remember the article you cited this morning, it was the Israeli government that prosecuted the Israeli arms dealer and got a conviction and a 16 year prison term for the POS! When's the last time an American citizen has been successfully prosectuted and imprisoned for doing the same thing? Eric The(Yeah,Right!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 5:05:44 PM EDT
You may want to get your facts straight. The F1 is NOT a Lavi clone. The F1, is basically a Mig 17. The Israelis upgraded the cockpit. They did the same for India. Israel did cancel the Phalcon sale as ETH mentioned at our request, while the US sold AWACS to our good friends the Saudis. Double standard here. Israel doesn't hold a candel to our arms sales if thats your problem. Although I think you as usuall are always looking for an excuse to bash Israel and Jews. As far as Israel being our allies, Israeli F-15s have been training with our pilots (A-10s, F117s and F16s) for the last 2 weeks here at Davis Monthan AFB.The formations of US and Israeli aircraft were a thing of beauty to see. I suppose it would give little adolf I mean Kar heartburn.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 5:42:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Eric The(IThinkNot)Hun[>]:)]
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I know that.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 5:49:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By az_larry: You may want to get your facts straight. The F1 is NOT a Lavi clone. The F1, is basically a Mig 17.
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If you scroll back up, you will see that mention was made of the ChiCom F-10 fighter, not a F-1.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 6:01:00 PM EDT
99% of countries that recieve aid are ungrateful. What's really frustrating is that the US is stupid enough to keep giving money away. Too bad our former leaders were too stupid to stop other countries from developing weapons of mass destuction. Truman should have made an edict to the world- If you develop weapons of mass destruction, we will drop A-bombs on your capitals. He could have prevented the entire Cold War, not to mention what's to come.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 6:06:15 PM EDT
I would be interested to see just how much Chinese military hardware hostile states such as Syria, Iran and Iraq buy. The Chinese were caught red-handed upgrading Iraq's air defense radar systems not too long ago, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't sell them more stuff. After all, Iraq's Scuds were originally made in China. Just think, now Iraq can buy Israel-enhanced electronics on those Scuds to fire at Israel. Instead of it raining Scuds a mile apart they might actually be able to hit their targets now. Compared to the Jews in the US, Israeli Jews aren't very bright.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 6:06:45 PM EDT
Still not a Lavi clone, more like an SU-27. No match for our aircraft even with upgraded avionics. And China would never take on Taiwan as long as it's under our protection.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 7:09:40 PM EDT
Post from Kar98 -
I know that.
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I doubt that. Eric The(ComeAgain)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 7:54:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Eric The(ComeAgain)Hun[>]:)]
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Mt 25.13
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 9:12:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2002 9:27:03 PM EDT by Raptor22]
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 9:27:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 10:27:11 PM EDT
I don't know what in the hell you people are all worried about. I am sure that israel made china sign an agreement that none of the weapons systems they bought would ever be used against the U.S. or U.S. interests.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 11:15:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from PoliticalScience -
I will make apologies for neither.
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You don't have to. The Israelis stopped when requested.
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Why were they doing it the first place? [(:|)]
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