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Posted: 3/27/2009 10:56:20 AM EDT
Let's say you are in a public place. There are 50 or so adults* doing whatever and crazy guy pulls a weapon (machete, axe, gun) and starts cutting people down.

As far as I am concerned (I CCW everywhere) I am making a beeline to the exit. If crazy is in my way he will get dealt with, otherwise fuck all those dumb ass sheep, I am gone.

If God placed me next to the exit, I am going to use it. God didn't place me in the gunstore or CCW class. If you don't want to exercise your rights it sucks to be you.

What says the hive?




*if children are involved, homie is getting dealt with even if I have to rot in the pen.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 10:58:34 AM EDT
If I think I can get the drop on him, I'll try. I don't think I could sleep well at night knowing all those people were killed and I could have done something about it, but didn't.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 10:58:45 AM EDT
I'd take the shot if I could do so safely.

No matter what I could do or couldn't do legally, if I had a way to stop/reduce the number of innocent people from getting slaughtered, I would. And I assume most men would as well.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 10:59:17 AM EDT
IMO morally such a person is a coward.

It's not illegal to be a coward.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 10:59:56 AM EDT
This comes up from time to time... to time... to time... to time...

In the end, most seem to agree, and I concur, that it's gonna end up being a judgment call on your part.

Just make sure that you can live with the consequences of whatever it is that you choose to do.


(Now, if I'm with loved ones... you're on your own. Sorry. )
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:00:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:01:49 AM EDT by VBC]
It would depend what he had. If he's spraying an automatic rifle fire and I only have my pistol, fuck that.

If he's got a knife or machete, I'd try to drop him.

Pistol vs. pistol, I don't know.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:00:58 AM EDT

Just an opinion... In the scenario you've created, making a beeline for the exit while others are being injured/killed would eat me like a cancer for the rest of my life... I would have to engage... Sheep, sheepdog, wolf, that sort of thing comes to mind...

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:01:03 AM EDT
I think I would take the shot.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:03:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:03:59 AM EDT by Pegdraggin]
Originally Posted By Tannim:
IMO morally such a person is a coward.

It's not illegal to be a coward.



+1. A legally armed individual who could stop a mass-murder but chose to save his own ass instead is a POS in my book. I won't even try to candy-coat my opinion in this regard.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:03:10 AM EDT
Honestly don't know what I'd do until I get to the situation.

I'd like to think that I'd eliminate the threat period.............but then again......with all the people running....gunshots won't make the crowd any less rowdy.


if I'm with family......probably just go if God placed us next to the exit. If God put us right next to the guy to drop him....then so be it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:03:59 AM EDT
I say fuck those who don't take personal responsibility. I carry a gun to protect ME and mine. I work to feed ME and mine.


Those that said they would save the others should never bitch about welfare again.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:06:40 AM EDT
in this case? fuck it I'm foing outta there!!! sorry but if it's a packed area then I don't want to be responsible for trying to hit the asshole.

If I can't but laughing boy hasn't seen me I'd find a place to hide and if he finds me and tries to kill me then it's open season.

Opening up in a crowd is a bad idea.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:07:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:07:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:11:12 AM EDT by g21fan]
Evil will triump when good men do nothing.

Morally, a very cowardly way of thinking. We are our brother's keeper and not to prevent harm when able is reprehensible.

As for me, I'm going to do all I can to stop him, even if it gets his attention away from others to me so others may escape.

Consequenses be damned. I will stand before a judge and God with a clear conscience.


ETA: Welfare and being attacked is not compatible. Seems as you do not value human life with your statements.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:08:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RckClimber:
I'd take the shot if I could do so safely.

No matter what I could do or couldn't do legally, if I had a way to stop/reduce the number of innocent people from getting slaughtered, I would. And I assume most men would as well.


+1
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:09:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:09:52 AM EDT by TGFB]
Originally Posted By g21fan:
Evil will triump when good men do nothing.

Morally, a very cowardly way of thinking. We are our brother's keeper and not to prevent harm when able is reprehensible.

As for me, I'm going to do all I can to stop him, even if it gets his attention away from others to me so others may escape.

Consequenses be damned. I will stand before a judge and God with a clear conscience.


As will I, I read the bible as well. There is nothing in Leviticus about cowards going to hell.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:09:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TGFB:
I say fuck those who don't take personal responsibility. I carry a gun to protect ME and mine. I work to feed ME and mine.


Those that said they would save the others should never bitch about welfare again.


There's a total difference between $$ being taken away from for the government to give to welfare rats, and manning up to do what you can to help innocent people.

Two roads to take. One of a man (and a decent human being), and the other of a selfish coward.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:09:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
If I think I can get the drop on him, I'll try. I don't think I could sleep well at night knowing all those people were killed and I could have done something about it, but didn't.


This
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:10:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pegdraggin:+1. A legally armed individual who could stop a mass-murder but chose to save his own ass instead is a POS in my book. I won't even try to candy-coat my opinion in this regard.


No offense but I hope you have fun in court if you hit a nun or some baby,shooting in a crowded area is a big risk-cops get hung if they screw up and hit a civvie how do you think you'll fair?

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:10:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:14:16 AM EDT by runcible]
Originally Posted By g21fan:
We are our brother's keeper...


This is the justification for the welfare state.

I do not agree.

What's that quote?

"When all men are my brother, then I have no brother"?

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:13:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:13:34 AM EDT by g21fan]
I don't agree with long-term or career welfare either. It is intended to get you on your feet as it did my wife and I once.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:14:06 AM EDT
I'm nobody's keeper unless I'm on the clock, but I believe that there's a social contract between the members of a society ––or maybe between the members of a given culture.

Even though many/most would run for the door, if it was my wife or sister or mother who was there at the time instead of me, I would hope that someone with the mindset, training and equipment to deal with the threat would do so, as I would.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:15:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kronos2720:
Originally Posted By Pegdraggin:+1. A legally armed individual who could stop a mass-murder but chose to save his own ass instead is a POS in my book. I won't even try to candy-coat my opinion in this regard.


No offense but I hope you have fun in court if you hit a nun or some baby,shooting in a crowded area is a big risk-cops get hung if they screw up and hit a civvie how do you think you'll fair?



And I hope you have fun living out the rest of your days knowing you could have prevented a mass homicide, but chose to run instead, in fear of both harm and legal ramifications.
I'd rather be dead.

As for shooting innocents... I didn't say I'd start blasting indiscrimantly. Since in the given scenario the BG is taking out people repeatedly and at random, I don't see how attempting to stop him could be worse than doing nothing.


Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:15:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:17:00 AM EDT by jbombelli]
I used to be of the opinion that I would drop the guy in a situation like that. But over the years, as I've continually slammed my head into the wall of stupidity that is Liberal America, I no longer have that opinion. I have grown weary of this constant struggle just to keep the rights I have. They're not fucking privileges, they're fucking RIGHTS.

Now, if somebody is murdering others, and it's not a direct threat to me or mine, I'm not doing shit to help. Chances are most of victims voted for gun control, or politicians who promote gun control, anyway. Or at the bare minimum do not exercise their rights to defend themselves, instead hoping others will do it for them. Fuck them. Let them die. That's what they get.

I really don't care if somebody thinks I'm a coward or a POS over it. The bottom line is this: we are all individually responsible for our own safety and well-being. If you're not going to arm yourself to protect yourself and your loved ones from the evil that exists in the world, then fuck you. Don't come crying to me. It's not my problem.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:16:09 AM EDT
If I'm by myself or w/ other adults, do what I can to stop him. If I'm just w/ my son then my job is to get him to safety. I can't take a 7yo into harms way so he takes priority.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:16:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
I'm nobody's keeper unless I'm on the clock, but I believe that there's a social contract between the members of a society ––or maybe between the members of a given culture.

Even though many/most would run for the door, if it was my wife or sister or mother who was there at the time instead of me, I would hope that someone with the mindset, training and equipment to deal with the threat would do so, as I would.


So you hope someone steps up instead of you stepping up and arming your loved ones to prepare for the given situation?
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:17:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jbombelli:
I used to be of the opinion that I would drop the guy in a situation like that. But over the years, as I've continually slammed my head into the wall of stupidity that is Liberal America, I no longer have that opinion. I have grown weary of this constant struggle just to keep the rights I have. They're not fucking privileges, they're fucking RIGHTS.

Now, if somebody is murdering others, and it's not a direct threat to me or mine, I'm not doing shit to help. Chances are most of victims voted for gun control, or politicians who promote gun control, anyway. Or at the bare minimum do not exercise their rights to defend themselves, instead hoping others will do it for them. Fuck them. Let them die. That's what they get.

I really don't care if somebody thinks I'm a coward or a POS over it. The bottom line is this: we are all individually responsible for our own safety and well-being. If you're not going to arm yourself to protect yourself and your loved ones from the evil that exists in the world, then fuck you. Don't come crying to me. It's not my problem.




We are out there. We THINK for ourselves.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:18:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Even though many/most would run for the door, if it was my wife or sister or mother who was there at the time instead of me, I would hope that someone with the mindset, training and equipment to deal with the threat would do so, as I would.


This I would agree with.

I don't have nearly the level of skill or expertise to engage an active shooter with any expectation of success... especially one more heavily armed than me.

On the other hand, if I were walking my dog, and I saw a house on fire, and a woman screaming, "My baby's in there!"... I'd go in.

No other bystander is going to have a better shot at getting down the hall without protective gear than I will. It's what I do for living.

In that instance, I'd go in, and let the chips fall where they may.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:20:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jbombelli:
I used to be of the opinion that I would drop the guy in a situation like that. But over the years, as I've continually slammed my head into the wall of stupidity that is Liberal America, I no longer have that opinion. I have grown weary of this constant struggle just to keep the rights I have. They're not fucking privileges, they're fucking RIGHTS.

Now, if somebody is murdering others, and it's not a direct threat to me or mine, I'm not doing shit to help. Chances are most of victims voted for gun control, or politicians who promote gun control, anyway. Or at the bare minimum do not exercise their rights to defend themselves, instead hoping others will do it for them. Fuck them. Let them die. That's what they get.

I really don't care if somebody thinks I'm a coward or a POS over it. The bottom line is this: we are all individually responsible for our own safety and well-being. If you're not going to arm yourself to protect yourself and your loved ones from the evil that exists in the world, then fuck you. Don't come crying to me. It's not my problem.


Well said.

As for me, I CCW to protect myself and my family. I don't carry to be a hero.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:20:59 AM EDT
I think you're an idiot.

Sometimes even good prepared people need help. Hopefully no one will ever get the jump on you before you can draw, otherwise some CCW may assume you're a liberal idiot who deserves what you brought on yourself.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:21:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:22:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pegdraggin:
Originally Posted By Kronos2720:
Originally Posted By Pegdraggin:+1. A legally armed individual who could stop a mass-murder but chose to save his own ass instead is a POS in my book. I won't even try to candy-coat my opinion in this regard.


No offense but I hope you have fun in court if you hit a nun or some baby,shooting in a crowded area is a big risk-cops get hung if they screw up and hit a civvie how do you think you'll fair?



And I hope you have fun living out the rest of your days knowing you could have prevented a mass homicide, but chose to run instead, in fear of both harm and legal ramifications.
I'd rather be dead.

As for shooting innocents... I didn't say I'd start blasting indiscrimantly. Since in the given scenario the BG is taking out people repeatedly and at random, I don't see how attempting to stop him could be worse than doing nothing.




Sorry but I've been in malls when there packed,and knowing how one gunshot/knifing could result in a stampeade my thought is always "know where the exits are,find one with haste and get out" is plan #1

If the rest have their heads so far up their asses to not have this plan then for you,I'll be alive and outside.

Besides anyone sees you in a mad rush with a gun and you become the next insane person trying to kill everybody,always a chance then may jump you.......

Between bystanders and getting attacked by the mob the chances of you coming out good are pretty

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:23:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By runcible:
This comes up from time to time... to time... to time... to time...

In the end, most seem to agree, and I concur, that it's gonna end up being a judgment call on your part.

Just make sure that you can live with the consequences of whatever it is that you choose to do.


(Now, if I'm with loved ones... you're on your own. Sorry. )


Especially if it's a guy with a knife, think of the headlines.

"See, now just one law abiding citizen with a gun could have prevented all this."

Hey, if Feinstein says "never waste a good tragedy" or whatever he mantra is, we need to fight back with the same.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:23:40 AM EDT
You know, the more I think about it, the more I find this thread really ironic. Every time there's a mass shooting etc, the members here scream about how if SOMEBODY there had been armed, there would be less casualties. We get our panties in a wad especially if it's in a state or location that doesn't allow CWP. Yet it appears that many of the member here would tuck tail and run, even if they could do something to stop the threat...
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:25:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TGFB:
I say fuck those who don't take personal responsibility. I carry a gun to protect ME and mine. I work to feed ME and mine.


Those that said they would save the others should never bitch about welfare again.


Welfare is committed by the state, and you need to be able to see the difference between state-enforced wealth redistribution and kind, voluntary, personal acts. It is not hypocritical for a man to be against welfare by the government, but choose to work in a private soup kitchen for the homeless on the weekends (or insert your favorite example of voluntary personal charity here). Please don't confuse the two issues.

For me, it all comes down to my gut-check on the probabilities in the situation. It's a really complicated decision, and I'm just going to have to trust that my instincts will choose the right thing at the time. Some examples of how I hope I would react:

1) If it's just me and a store clerk in a stop-n-rob, and I think I could either get away clean, or save the clerk with about 95% certainty of me dying: fuck no, I'm not gonna die to save a single unprepared store clerk.

2) On the other hand, if I felt even 75% sure that I could stop the shooter without taking a bullet and save the clerk, I certainly would.

3) In a crowd, everything multiplies out. I think I would take on a 75% chance of death willingly to stop a shooter in a crowd of 50 people. That's a lot of lives on the line.

4) If the potential victims meet some definition of "specialness", I might even take on a 99%+ chance of death to stop the threat. Special would probably mean any children, any family members or friends, and in all honesty, probably any really hot chick too .

Most real-world situations are going to be in some grey area inbetween, and I think I'll let my instincts make the call, and hopefully I'll make a call I can live with.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:26:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TGFB:
So you hope someone steps up instead of you stepping up and arming your loved ones to prepare for the given situation?


I bought my wife a Glock 19 and took her to a two day shooting class with me.
I bought my mother a Glock 19 and got her hooked up with training from a pipehitter friend of mine.
My sister lives 1000 miles away, and my father has taken her shooting. I don't know if she has a heater or not.

I don't just hope in a vacuum. I do what I can to prepare, and then I hope that others will display the same initiative and backbone that I have.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:27:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TGFB:
I say fuck those who don't take personal responsibility. I carry a gun to protect ME and mine. I work to feed ME and mine.


Those that said they would save the others should never bitch about welfare again


Saving people from being murdered = supporting welfare
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:27:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By TGFB:
So you hope someone steps up instead of you stepping up and arming your loved ones to prepare for the given situation?


Please don't lecture Jarhead_22 about "stepping up". It will end poorly for you.



What poor ending comes about for making personal attacks?
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:27:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:28:30 AM EDT
I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I ran while others died.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:28:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
If I think I can get the drop on him, I'll try. I don't think I could sleep well at night knowing all those people were killed and I could have done something about it, but didn't.



Probably this!........sometimes you have to step up and be the Shepherd!
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:29:48 AM EDT
I'm intervening regardless of the circumstances. Maybe even on behalf of TGFB's family. I would hope if my family were there, some of you would do the same.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:29:51 AM EDT
Knowing how I am, regardless if I were buck naked, hung over, and had diarrhea, and only my wits to fight with, I could not flee.

I would fight to the best of my ability, even if it were only to allow a few more to escape before I were killed.

Not bravado, it is what I would do.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:30:03 AM EDT
I'd take the shot. He's already made it known he's a threat to everybody in that room by swinging a machete, I don't think I'd be able to live the rest of my life knowing I had 19+1 ways of putting him down and didn't help save some lives.

If anything, you gun him down and we'll have some friggin' ammo to use against the antis.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:30:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kronos2720:
Originally Posted By Pegdraggin:
Originally Posted By Kronos2720:
Originally Posted By Pegdraggin:+1. A legally armed individual who could stop a mass-murder but chose to save his own ass instead is a POS in my book. I won't even try to candy-coat my opinion in this regard.


No offense but I hope you have fun in court if you hit a nun or some baby,shooting in a crowded area is a big risk-cops get hung if they screw up and hit a civvie how do you think you'll fair?



And I hope you have fun living out the rest of your days knowing you could have prevented a mass homicide, but chose to run instead, in fear of both harm and legal ramifications.
I'd rather be dead.

As for shooting innocents... I didn't say I'd start blasting indiscrimantly. Since in the given scenario the BG is taking out people repeatedly and at random, I don't see how attempting to stop him could be worse than doing nothing.




Sorry but I've been in malls when there packed,and knowing how one gunshot/knifing could result in a stampeade my thought is always "know where the exits are,find one with haste and get out" is plan #1

If the rest have their heads so far up their asses to not have this plan then for you,I'll be alive and outside.

Besides anyone sees you in a mad rush with a gun and you become the next insane person trying to kill everybody,always a chance then may jump you.......

Between bystanders and getting attacked by the mob the chances of you coming out good are pretty



Every point you make revolves around one person... YOU. And that's fine. If that's the way you feel, then protect #1 at all costs. As I've said before, I find that attitude distasteful, but it's not my place to tell you what to think.
But don't make the mistake of thinking I'm overlooking the fact that I may be hurt or killed. That isn't news to me. The difference is, that's a risk I'm willing to take.



Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:30:25 AM EDT
I believe/think but don't remember clearly on this but I think the law at least in Arkansas about CCL is that you have a/the responsibility to protect yourself and others that are in harms way. Take that how you may but to me it says that if I am in this type of situation I have the responsibility to try to defend everyone else as well. I don't see it as if I have to charge in blazing away. I would get to cover and try to find or wait for a chance to take the crazy out.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:31:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:34:35 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By jhereg:
If I'm by myself or w/ other adults, do what I can to stop him. If I'm just w/ my son then my job is to get him to safety. I can't take a 7yo into harms way so he takes priority.


I'm totally on board with that. As a parent your #1 priority is to your child.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:31:50 AM EDT
I would step up and end the situation as to the best of my abilities, if i deem it possible, not only for the people in harms way, but for myself also.

If I didnt help, I know it would eat at me and also how could I miss out on an opportunity to show people that CCW is a good thing.

Now if im with a family member, they are going to be told to GTFO of there.

Not to disagree with you getting out of there, theres no responsibility on your part. You will do what you will do and I will do what I will do...
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:32:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By TGFB:
So you hope someone steps up instead of you stepping up and arming your loved ones to prepare for the given situation?


I bought my wife a Glock 19 and took her to a two day shooting class with me.
I bought my mother a Glock 19 and got her hooked up with training from a pipehitter friend of mine.
My sister lives 1000 miles away, and my father has taken her shooting. I don't know if she has a heater or not.

I don't just hope in a vacuum. I do what I can to prepare, and then I hope that others will display the same initiative and backbone that I have.



If everyone was like you there would just be a dead dumbass with a machete, axe, gun in his hand. I will still be running for the door though, so I will have to wait to see the outcome on the six o'clock news.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:32:05 AM EDT
Drop to one knee so as to minimize/eliminate collateral damage and let Crazy Guy in on the 230 grain secret.

I'm not going to have the deaths of those people on my head, Lib sheep or not.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:34:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rangermonroe:
Knowing how I am, regardless if I were buck naked, hung over, and had diarrhea, and only my wits to fight with, I could not flee.

I would fight to the best of my ability, even if it were only to allow a few more to escape before I were killed.

Not bravado, it is what I would do.


RLTW
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