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Posted: 4/25/2013 9:02:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 9:02:45 AM EDT by Waldo]
I watched the movie in spite of knowing fully well how Moore edits, manipualtes and lies, and I guess you could see here and there the BS that he's well known for. Things like Cuba's wonderfully low child mortality rate, which isnt as wonderful when you take into account that they are the country that does the most abortions in the world, even force their people to have them if the child seems to have any problem at all before birth. Nice. Guess good'ol Mchael Moore forgot that tiny detail. Also the nice hosptials and drugstores he showed, right, read a bit and you see that the average Cuban has a hard time getting aspirin, let alone anything else.
At the same time I've known the American saying of "we're all one accident away from bankrupcy", which I know to be true for many people.
Personally, I'm now under NHS, which is what you have in Northern Ireland. As much as there are things that I dont like, like any place in the world, I must admit that even if not perfect it does work, and it gives you a level of confidence knowing that in spite of the delays (ive experienced none myself, the last 5 times I went or took my kids to the doctor I never waited more than 10 minutes, got a receipt for medicines that cost exactly 0,00 GBP )and other problems, goign bankrupt over an illenss is not one of them. At the same time if I want to see a doctor on my own I can still go and pay for it and see any one I want. Dental is somewaht similar, serious stuff and emergencies are covered for free by NHS, if I want something nicer done I pay it out of my pocket, which I'm happy to do and consider it fair.

For all the crap that I've always compalined about in Argentina, the medical care sistem wasnt one of them. Granted, the supposedly free medical care in Argentina is a bad joke, youre very much dead if thats what you have to care for you. At the same time the private medical sector used to work very well. I paid about 400 usd a month for us, 2 adults, 2 kids, and that covered everything,any medical problem you had, from a borken leg to cancer, it was all covered (except for the drugs, which you paid a % of), no matter how expensive it was, no matter how long it took. You did pay more as you grew older, and to be honest its getting worse each year thanks to the crappy government but its not that bad.

Of all the "this hasnt been covered before" topics found in the survival forum, like 9mm vs 45 ACP, whats the best survival knife and take a look at my new BOV I think this is one of the least often discussed topics, even if its directly linked to well, quality of life and down right pure survival, life or death.

Whats your opinion on the health care situation in USA right now? Have you had nightmare experiences with impossible medical costs? Insurance companies that refuse to pay and provide service?
What would be a good medical cover for a self employed person, how much would that cost and what would it realistically cover?

I've read up on the subject but I'd like to know the experience and opinions you guys have.

FerFAL
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 8:05:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 8:16:15 AM EDT by EXPY37]
We've got Obama care, the majority voted for it, even many of my friends think it is peachy, and since we aren't a socialist country with the .gov paying for everything, our new Obama care is going to be wonderful and we'll all share in the expense.

And it won't cost much if not nuthin.

Our doctors and even our politicians can't wait to get signed up and some of us will get a Obamaphone thro'd into the deal.

Since we only have 1 in 5 famblies in the US on food stamps, we have a long ways to go before there's any economic problems, and the old timers have great entertainment in recreational doctors visits, --keeps them busy..

Our air is clean too --witch is good and healthy, since we don't produce hardly as much as before, except we use nasty fertilizers to grow food and gasoline that are gonna be banned, soon.

All in all, we have it pretty good and hopefully we'll get many more on food stamps and all sorts of assistance, there are tremendous gov sponcered programs just to round up more folks to sign up.

Just to illustrate, the Boston terrs were on most every EBT card, watch list, schlorschip, housing, and assistance program we have, living a GREAT life, --that's how we take care of our imported folks.

It's gonna get a lot better too... When Obama gets reelected in '16!



Link Posted: 4/25/2013 8:08:09 AM EDT
I wish I could pay to see that fat fuck have a stroke.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 8:58:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 9:00:57 AM EDT by wshbrngr]
I had Universal Health Care when I was in the army.

I rarely needed it, being 18-25y/o during those years, I was pretty healthy.
The few times I did use it, it was OK.

After college, I always had healthcare through my job.
No major events (so far), but the times I have used it, I was satisfied with the care I received.

With ObamaCare, we will see.
The only impact i see for my family is that we will have to pay more to fund it.

A lot of entities friendly to the .gov are already getting waviers and exemptions.
Businesses are already beginning to hire more part-timers and reduce hours of current employees to less than 30hrs/wk to avoid the additional taxes and penalties.

and it is beginning to look like I am going to continue to pay for my families healthcare through my job, but possibly incur an additional tax because it may be considered a "Cadillac Plan"

I guess I will find out starting next year.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 9:10:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 9:13:13 AM EDT by speedracer422]
Healthcare in the US would (have been) much cheaper if:





The industry was deregulated and more insurers were allowed to sell coverage across more state lines.


Congress passed some sort of tort reform that put caps on the amounts people could sue for common malpractice suits, bringing down the price of malpractice insurance premiums for doctors.





The price of our medical coverage in the US could have easily become even cheaper, more people would be insured right now, and doctors would make more money


But, our elected leaders chose the complete opposite plan
Anyway, here's something that never seems to get mentioned: poor people already have free medical care in the US. It's called medicaid; They don't even have to pay for prescriptions


And, if they do get a big medical bill for something, there are generally county or state programs that will pick up the slack.
Speed
 
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 9:13:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 9:14:27 AM EDT by ferfal308]
Originally Posted By speedracer422:
Healthcare in the US would (have been) much cheaper if:

The industry was deregulated and more insurers were allowed to sell coverage across more state lines.
Congress passed some sort of tort reform that put caps on the amounts people could sue for common malpractice suits.

The price of our medical coverage in the US could have easily become even cheaper, more people would be insured right now, and doctors would make more money
But, our elected leaders chose the complete opposite plan


Anyway, here's something that never seems to get mentioned: poor people already have free medical care in the US. It's called medicaid; They don't even have to pay for prescriptions
And, if they do get a big medical bill for something, there are generally county or state programs that will pick up the slack.


Speed


(thread moved)
wow. so staying alive and healthy isnt survival related. Its not as if cancer, strokes and the likes kill people.
FerFAL
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 9:15:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 10:19:45 AM EDT by NightFox]
My health care plan is to take responsibility for my health and take care of myself.  If I break my arm there's a high-deductible insurance plan.

It's quite similar to car insurance -- when there's a small expense or regular maintenance, I pay for it myself.  If there's an unexpected huge expense, I have insurance.

Now Obamacare will get rid of those plans to force me to buy coverage I don't need and don't want (but really, my premiums are simply subsidizing coverage for those who can't/won't pay for coverage they desire).
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 9:16:01 AM EDT



Originally Posted By ferfal308:



Originally Posted By speedracer422:

Healthcare in the US would (have been) much cheaper if:



The industry was deregulated and more insurers were allowed to sell coverage across more state lines.

Congress passed some sort of tort reform that put caps on the amounts people could sue for common malpractice suits.



The price of our medical coverage in the US could have easily become even cheaper, more people would be insured right now, and doctors would make more money

But, our elected leaders chose the complete opposite plan





Anyway, here's something that never seems to get mentioned: poor people already have free medical care in the US. It's called medicaid; They don't even have to pay for prescriptions

And, if they do get a big medical bill for something, there are generally county or state programs that will pick up the slack.





Speed





(thread moved)

wow. so staying alive and healthy isnt survival related. Its not as if cancer, strokes and the likes kill people.

FerFAL


Wait, what?



Did you post this in SF?

I saw this in GD...
Speed



 
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 9:46:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 9:51:13 AM EDT by godzillamax]
Healthcare Insurance in the U.S. hasn't been actual "insurance" for decades. Its more like a gym membership now than anything else. Talking about it, and legislating about it, like it is insurance is setting everyone up for failure. That said, America has the worlds best healthcare system, resources, providers, research, etc. in the world. Comparing healthcare in America to nations with socialized healthcare is like comparing regular roads to toll roads. Everyone pays for the building and maintenance of the regular roads, but only those who can afford it get the privilege of driving on the toll roads. In America, everyone has access to the regular roads whether they help pay for them or not. But some people who can afford it can use the toll roads. In nations with socialized healthcare, there are no toll roads, just the regular roads. Obamacare was designed to put the toll roads out of business so the only roads for people to drive on are the regular ones. Socialists loath the reality that inequalities exists in the world. And why those inequalities exists (some people work harder than others, are smarter than others, prettier than others, etc.) is a moot point to the socialists. Everyone equally mediocre is better than some more exceptional to a socialists.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 11:01:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By godzillamax:
That said, America has the worlds best healthcare system, resources, providers, research, etc. in the world.

I agree on research and technology, that sure is top notch in USA, best in the world.  But I wouldnt say that the healthcare system in USA is the best in the world, not by a long shot. If you look at how much it costs per capita compared to medicine in France, Germany, even Switzerland and how medicine works in those places. Spain has free medical care, and as much as the economy went to hell there, I once got medical attention in Spain and you can see it is good.
FerFAL                    

Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:25:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 12:30:21 PM EDT by godzillamax]
Originally Posted By ferfal308:
Originally Posted By godzillamax:
That said, America has the worlds best healthcare system, resources, providers, research, etc. in the world.

I agree on research and technology, that sure is top notch in USA, best in the world.  But I wouldnt say that the healthcare system in USA is the best in the world, not by a long shot. If you look at how much it costs per capita compared to medicine in France, Germany, even Switzerland and how medicine works in those places.
FerFAL                    



Per Capita spending per nation isn't a good comparative metric, because if you simply say who spends the least is doing the best job then we should all strive to have Ethiopia or Sudan's healthcare system because they spend very little per person. As a single metric, quality of care is more important than cost. Also, per capita healthcare spending is often an erroneous black and white metric because the U.S. absorbs the bulk of the worlds healthcare and pharma R&D costs, which are astronomical. Medications are much costlier in the U.S. to offset lower priced pharmaceuticals sold abroad under threat of reverse engineering by those nations. The problem with the vast majority of nation vs nation "healthcare metrics" is they are not apples to apples comparisons, and often (if not always), the organization releasing the data (such as the WHO) has a highly biased agenda. Just look no further than infant mortality rates for a prime example of this.

Originally Posted By ferfal308:Spain has free medical care, and as much as the economy went to hell there, I once got medical attention in Spain and you can see it is good.

Nothing in life is free. Someone is paying for it.

Just wanted to add: I sit in on numerous healthcare related conference calls/webinars each month and I find it interesting that in nations with socialized healthcare, Canada, U.K., etc. the number one issue all the providers in those nations are dealing with is dwindling funds from their single payer systems, imposition of longer waits for care, and more and more restricted coverage for procedures and treatment to offset the financial burden of their crumbling single payer systems.

The old saying "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" holds very true for socialist single payer type healthcare systems.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:36:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By godzillamax:
Originally Posted By ferfal308:
Originally Posted By godzillamax:
That said, America has the worlds best healthcare system, resources, providers, research, etc. in the world.

I agree on research and technology, that sure is top notch in USA, best in the world.  But I wouldnt say that the healthcare system in USA is the best in the world, not by a long shot. If you look at how much it costs per capita compared to medicine in France, Germany, even Switzerland and how medicine works in those places.
FerFAL                    



Per Capita spending per nation isn't a good comparative metric, because if you simply say who spends the least is doing the best job then we should all strive to have Ethiopia or Sudan's healthcare system because they spend very little per person. As a single metric, quality of care is more important than cost. Also, per capita healthcare spending is often an erroneous black and white metric because the U.S. absorbs the bulk of the worlds healthcare and pharma R&D costs, which are astronomical. Medications are much costlier in the U.S. to offset lower priced pharmaceuticals sold abroad under threat of reverse engineering by those nations. The problem with the vast majority of nation vs nation "healthcare metrics" is they are not apples to apples comparisons, and often (if not always), the organization releasing the data (such as the WHO) has a highly biased agenda. Just look no further than infant mortality rates for a prime example of this.

Originally Posted By ferfal308:Spain has free medical care, and as much as the economy went to hell there, I once got medical attention in Spain and you can see it is good.

Nothing in life is free. Someone is paying for it.

Just wanted to add: I sit in on numerous healthcare related conference calls/webinars each month and I find it interesting that in nations with socialized healthcare, Canada, U.K., etc. the number one issue all the providers in those nations are dealing with is dwindling funds from their single payer systems, imposition of longer waits for care, and more and more restricted coverage for procedures and treatment to offset the financial burden of their crumbling single payer systems.

The old saying "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" holds very true for socialist single payer type healthcare systems.



Germans and other Europeans have very high tax rates, 30-40-50% in some areas.  We have a tax schedule that varies on income levels and ranges around 11-36% give or take.  They have socialized health care that is paid largely through the exorbitant taxes levied on the citizens.  

A good 80/20 plan for an individual will run around 200 per month depending on the vendor. My family health care cost (monthly dues) increased 11% this year. Next year, due to the new U.S. Affordable healthcare act, it is sure to go up more.

Without insurance, health providers will work with reduced fees for cash, or cash payments. It largely depends on the provider.

Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:43:57 PM EDT
Of course nothing is really free, it is tax payers money. Some pay more taxes than others, some pay no taxes at all. Now, IMHO I'd rather have a HC system like the one in Canada, Spain, UK or France, rather than what you have in USA with companies looking to dodge payments and deny treatement as much as possible and living with fear of going broke if you get sick.
Thats just me, YMMV and all that. I dont understand how there doesnt seem to be  a problem with "free" education (yes, we estabilisehd  that, nothing is really free) but at the same time if you think of finding a similar compromise for keeping people healthy and alive the same mentlaity doesnt compute.
If education is a right,  isnt health a right as well? IF you have the right to live and pursiut happyness shouldnt it be even implicit up to a point? If you look at the exorbitant costs of health insurance in USA, the profit these companies liek Humana have, the profit by hostpital and pharma companies, the insane fortunes made by some doctors to me it doesnt compute. Yes, I agree that a if a person can charge 1.000.000 USD  for a minute of his serivce the free person in me says " you go man, charge as much as you want" at the same time if the entire system is set to screw desperate people, so that all doctors, all hosptials, and drug companies are plotted so as to get as much money out of you as they can and throw the rest, then that isnt right.
FerFAL
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 3:52:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2013 4:13:04 PM EDT by godzillamax]
Originally Posted By ferfal308:
Of course nothing is really free, it is tax payers money. Some pay more taxes than others, some pay no taxes at all. Now, IMHO I'd rather have a HC system like the one in Canada, Spain, UK or France, rather than what you have in USA with companies looking to dodge payments and deny treatement as much as possible and living with fear of going broke if you get sick.


Look at it this way, your choice is either a healthcare system like Canada, Spain, UK or France where everyone receives good care (provided by the government), but no one receives exceptional care, or a healthcare system like America's where 30% receive good care and 70% receive exceptional care. Oh, and the icing on the cake is that in America for those 30% through hard work they can bump themselves up into the 70% bracket. This is why the well-to-do in socialist nations (like Canada, Spain, UK or France) come to America for exceptional quality medical care/treatment they either cannot get or have long waits for in their home countries.


Originally Posted By ferfal308: Thats just me, YMMV and all that. I dont understand how there doesnt seem to be  a problem with "free" education (yes, we estabilisehd  that, nothing is really free) but at the same time if you think of finding a similar compromise for keeping people healthy and alive the same mentlaity doesnt compute.


Oh, there are huge problems with "free" education in America. And it isn't free.

Originally Posted By ferfal308:If education is a right,  isnt health a right as well?

There is no enumerated right to an education in our Constitution. A right by its definition cannot enslave someone else, hence the reason obtaining healthcare from someone else isn't a right. Things like education, a job, a home, healthcare, etc. a things of personal responsibility, not rights.

Originally Posted By ferfal308:IF you have the right to live and pursiut happyness shouldnt it be even implicit up to a point?
The implicit nature of rights is that they don't infringe upon another person's rights.

Originally Posted By ferfal308:If you look at the exorbitant costs of health insurance in USA, the profit these companies liek Humana have, the profit by hostpital and pharma companies, the insane fortunes made by some doctors to me it doesnt compute.

Most healthcare companies have profit margins in the single digit numbers. Apple Computer has a far greater profit margin than most healthcare companies. Do you have a problem with Apple's profits as well? Or just any company earning a profit? The reason America has been so prosperous is because capitalism allows people to do two things: reinvest profits back into their companies to grow them, and live a better life. This is why America has continued to grow and prosper while communist and socialist nations have stagnated or are slowly dying.

Originally Posted By ferfal308:Yes, I agree that a if a person can charge 1.000.000 USD  for a minute of his serivce the free person in me says " you go man, charge as much as you want" at the same time if the entire system is set to screw desperate people, so that all doctors, all hosptials, and drug companies are plotted so as to get as much money out of you as they can and throw the rest, then that isnt right.


You need to ask yourself, why is that person charging that amount. Once you answer that question, correctly, it will open your eyes to a greater understanding of healthcare systems. I will give you a hint to help out - if a business has two customers, each wanting a service that costs the business $10 to perform, and one customers decides after services are rendered not to pay, how much must the business charge the second customer?
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