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Posted: 6/2/2001 12:16:55 PM EST
Lemme see if I understand how this works... I may own as many pre-ban configuration uppers as I can afford, AND I may also own as many post-ban lowers as I like, and as long as I never make a complete rifle out of the two I am fully legal? Am I correct about this?
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 12:21:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2001 12:19:30 PM EST by 700PSS]
Technically you would be legal, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have "Intent to manufacture a semi-automatic assault weapon" added to any other (even non-firearm related) charge that was brought against you for any reason.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 3:01:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2001 3:00:00 PM EST by seamusmcoi]
Come on, even if you were "planning" on buying a preban lower at a later date? I mean, it's also not to much of a stretch to figure out that since uppers are cheaper that lowers, one might have to save up to buy the lower. I think it would be a stretch for them to charge you with conspiracy to assemble. Hell for all they know, a freind of yours might have left it over there. Edited for spelling
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 3:16:59 PM EST
700pss, I'm just curious if it were legal... under your paranoia I could be charged for "intent to manufacture explosives" because I have kerosene and fertilizer in my garage. Without me overtly saying or writing that I intend to convert them into illegaly configured weapons, it would be difficult to prove in court what I planned to do with them. I'd just write myself a little budget sheet that'd go in the locker with the uppers, showing that (like Saemusmcoi suggested) I simply couldn't afford the pre-ban lowers at the time. And If The Sh*t Hits the Fan, at least I'll have options on how to arm myself, friends and family.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 3:45:33 PM EST
You call it paranoia, I'll call it CYA. Anyone can legally own an M16 bolt and carrier or a DIAS, but if you own an AR as well, that quickly becomes "conspiracy to manufacture a machine gun", a big, fat, juicy felony to tack on to any other minor charge that may turn the law's eye on you. Manufacturing an illegal SAW is just as bad as a machine gun in the eyes of the Feds. Keep your preban uppers with a nearby, trusted, non-AR owning friend. If and when the time comes to put them on your postban lowers, breaking that law will be the least of your worries.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 3:53:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By RYANG: And If The Sh*t Hits the Fan, at least I'll have options on how to arm myself, friends and family.
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Please enlighten me on how a preban weapon will be any more effective than a postban weapon. Bradd
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 3:56:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bradd D:
Originally Posted By RYANG: And If The Sh*t Hits the Fan, at least I'll have options on how to arm myself, friends and family.
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Please enlighten me on how a preban weapon will be any more effective than a postban weapon. Bradd
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How is he gonna bayonet the blue helmets without a bayonet lug? [;)]
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 4:21:44 PM EST
And what wouldn't be good about having flash suppressor?
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 4:26:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By seamusmcoi: And what wouldn't be good about having flash suppressor?
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Do sniper rifles have 'em? Seems to me if anyone would want one a sniper would. Bradd
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 4:34:20 PM EST
Fire an AR without a flash suppressor, then fire an AR with one. I'd go for postban uppers, and a 1/2-28 threading die, and anough flash suppressors to go around. Hide the suppressors in the bottom of a can of bolts, and put the die in your toolbox. Most of the ATF terds that I knew wouldn't know what a threading die was if you threaded onto their d!ck.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 4:44:44 PM EST
The sniper works from long ranges and fires few shots. The flash suppressor would obviously be a good thing for close quarter combat at night. It's hard to shoot at something in the dark when you can't see it.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 4:51:44 PM EST
Basically the law can charge you with just about anything, but they still have to prove it in court. Of course it will be the law’s word against you. I would not suggest having a post ban lower and a pre ban upper at the same time without at least one preban lower. This is an interesting problem, lets say I have a preban lower and two preban uppers, and at a latter date I decide to get a complete postban DCM rifle. Of course both of my preban uppers are for my preban lower. So technically if I wished I could put one of my preban uppers on my post ban lower and manufacture an illegal rifle if I wished to. Plus there is nothing to stop the law from switching uppers on your postban and charging you with a crime anyway. Similar to having a registered M-16 and also a Semi AR-15 at the same time and having a spare short barreled upper and some spare M-16 fire control parts for your legal M-16. They should have a difficult time convicting you of anything since they have to prove intent and everything you have has a legal use, but with our government’s record who knows. Is there anything you can do about this problem or should you even worry. I guess I would always worry because I do not trust our government and it’s law enforcement agents. Sniper for Justice VINE AUT MORIRE “Conquer or Die”
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 4:56:38 PM EST
I'm doing the CYA thing, too... just trying to do it within my limited budget... I'm sure some of you'll understand. Where can I find a DIAS or M16 bolt and carrier? My girlfriend owns no guns, but I think she'd like to have a few of those around her place... she likes that kinda stuff.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 5:15:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By seamusmcoi: The flash suppressor would obviously be a good thing for close quarter combat at night. It's hard to shoot at something in the dark when you can't see it.
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True...but it's not worth potential jail time. I think paspecops has the right idea. Perhaps I'll take a trip to Home Depot tomorrow. [;)] Bradd
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 7:10:27 PM EST
From what I understand; It is illegal to have a upper with a REMOVABLE flash suppressor and/or bayonet lug on a post ban lower. Some manufactures are making post-ban uppers with PERMANENTLY attached flash hiders. If this is true then there is no reason to own a pre-ban upper unless you wanted to mount a bayonet.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 7:14:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By ARChoo: From what I understand; It is illegal to have a upper with a REMOVABLE flash suppressor and/or bayonet lug on a post ban lower. Some manufactures are making post-ban uppers with PERMANENTLY attached flash hiders. If this is true then there is no reason to own a pre-ban upper unless you wanted to mount a bayonet.
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Not quite. You can have a permanently fixed [b]MUZZLE BRAKE[/b] on a post ban rifle, but not a flash surpressor.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 7:37:44 PM EST
FLASH SUPPRESSOR=BULLSH*T It don't suppress jack...it mearly redirects the flash into a perty star-shapped pattern. MUZZLEBREAK=POST-BAN FLASH SUPPRESSOR. Think about it-----does an AR really need a muzzle break? NO! What purpose does this "muzzle break" serve? It is mearly a post ban flash suppressor that is "permeantly" attached. Trust me . . . I did enough nite-fire in the service to know that the term flash suppressor is just as much of a misnomer as is military intelligence (or marine corps intelligence for that matter) [;)]
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 8:20:33 PM EST
CTR, I'd like to believe you're right, but I haven't seen or heard of one post ban muzzle break that will help dissipate the flash so as to make it easier to see when shooting at night. Hell, even DSA had to deal with this recently because the ATF said their post ban muzzle break interfered to much with muzzle flash.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 8:26:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 8:36:54 PM EST
Yes.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 9:00:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 9:42:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2001 9:45:02 PM EST by Sgt_Major_Payne]
http://members.nbci.com/noimnot/crap/muzzle_flash.jpg Without a flash-suppressor [heavy]
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 9:48:58 PM EST
? ...can't get the pic to show up
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 9:32:14 AM EST
Thank you, DK-prof... I really don't spend that much time thinking about SHTF situations, I would just like to have every advantage I possibly can should something happen. It's more of a mental exercise. I do not care about the bayonet lug on a pre-ban whatsoever, but I have seen night fire with AR's, HK's, SKS's and AK's, and I have drawn my own conclusion that flash hiders are rather useful. Not perfect, but useful. I like Paspecops idea of the die and loose hiders for quick attatchment, again, the girlfriend will probably keep'em at her house. Lights, lasers, and other doodads don't interest me for what I'm interested in doing, namely being able to arm four people with enough firepower to fight their way out of trouble. I am not going to assault anything. You have six mags... good for an individual, but I want that many per person. At least. We just have a different philosophy...OH, and you may be right about the service experience, I have very little infantry type training (just what my USMC friends have shown me) but I did at least serve my time in the USN. And, in contrast to your statement, it was my USMC friends who gave me the idea in the first place, as that is the plan they follow. It seemed logical to me.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 1:10:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 1:29:55 PM EST
Yea, DK-prof, and no EVIL features(oh,except for all the bayoneting I do)[x]
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 1:50:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2001 2:10:58 PM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 6/4/2001 9:42:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bradd D:
Originally Posted By seamusmcoi: And what wouldn't be good about having flash suppressor?
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Do sniper rifles have 'em? Seems to me if anyone would want one a sniper would. Bradd
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They do now. The Army M24s come with a pronged flash hider(like a Super Vortex)that works very well. With a PVS 10 day/night scope mounted, it is one deadly system. It's no problem to hit moveing targets at 600 with just starlight. Also, As anyone that has done the night scenarios with a FATS system can tell you: muzzle flash is your PRIMARY method of target acquisition in a night environment. Prebans are worth it in my opinion. CTR - The A2 flash hider does leave a little to be desired. Try a Vortex. I have one on my M4. When I fired it in a blacked out indoor range the only thing you could see was a glow from the ejection port- specifically from the holes in the side of the carrier.
Link Posted: 6/4/2001 10:22:28 AM EST
I don't know why you people dwell on what to do during SHTF. Any crisis would be very short lived as international humanitarian organizations such as the UN would be here helping in concert with FEMA.
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