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Posted: 8/18/2005 5:43:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 5:44:40 PM EDT by elvisp]
Please do not move this to the religion forum. Too narrow minded.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras



Mithras was the central savior god of Mithraism, a syncretic Hellenistic mystery religion of male initiates that developed in the Eastern Mediterranean in the 2nd and 1st centuries BC and was practiced in the Roman Empire from the 1st century BC to the 5th century AD. Parthian coins and documents bear a double date with a 64 year interval that represents Mithra's ascension to heaven, traditionally given as the equivalent of 208 BC, 64 years after his birth.

The name Mithras is the Greek masculine form of Mitra, the Persian god who was the mediator between Ahura Mazda and the earth, the guarantor of human contracts, although in Mithraism much was added to the original elements of Mithra. However, some of the attributes of Roman Mithras may have been taken from other Eastern cults: for example, the heavy Mithraist use of astrology strongly suggests syncretism with star-oriented Mesopotamian or Anatolian religions. At least some of this syncretism may have already been underway when the cult was adopted in the West. Ironically, when Mithraism was introduced by Roman legions at Dura-Europos after 168 CE, the saviour god assumed his familiar Hellenistic iconic formula (illustration above right) [1].

The cult surrounding Mithras had many similarities to the early cult of Christianity. Mithras had had twelve followers with whom he had shared a last sacramental meal (Mitra was a sun-god and there are 12 sections to the zodiac). He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day. His many titles included ‘the Truth,’ ‘the Light,’ and ‘the Good Shepherd.’ He was supposed to have been born of a virgin. For those who worshipped him, invoking the name of Mithras healed the sick and worked miracles. Mithras could dispense mercy and grant immortality; to his devotees he offered hope. By drinking his blood and eating his flesh (by proxy, from a slain bull) they too could conquer death. In particular, Mithras's birth was celebrated on December 25 (said to be the day the sun was (re)born - the solstice) and his followers practiced baptism. Some, particularly secular scholars, see these similarities as evidence that Christianity is actually a religion that evolved out of pagan myths. Others however, point to the lack of evidence that any of these elements were present in the Mithras cult prior to the emergence of Christianity, as evidence that Mithras borrowed from Christianity.
[edit]

External links

* David Ulansey, "The Cosmic Mysteries of Mithras"
* David Fingrut, "Mithraism: The Legacy of the Roman Empire's Final Pagan State Religion" (a high-school level paper that does, however, summarize well the classic work of Cumont)
* Ronald Nash, "Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions?" An essay arguing that pagan religions (including Mithraism) did not influence the new Testament.

[edit]

References

* Franz Cumont, The Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism
* Ulansey, David. The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. Oxford University Press 1991. ISBN 0195067886.

[edit]

See also

* Mithraism
* Mithraeum
* Mitra

Mithra sounds alot like someone else we know, but was dated in the 1st and 2nd century BC. Does anyone here have explainations as to why the 2 seem so similar?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:53:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:00:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:01:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Here we go again
1-are YOU, yes YOU!! claming that early christianity was derived from this cult?
2-do YOU YOU YOU YOU claim that there was no historical figure "Jesus Christ"?
3- do YOU! claim that there were not really 12 apostles?



Please put all hostility aside. Reread my post. I am not claiming anything. I want others opinion on this information. Do you have evidence that what I posted is false. Or that this Mithra "cult" did not exist before Christ?I got this info from the encylopedia not some wacko web site. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:05:05 PM EDT
V22 is dat you?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:07:13 PM EDT
of course this is going to be moved to the the religion forum and of course Christianity was not wholly "new"
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:07:13 PM EDT
I went to a temple of Mithras in Rome. It serves as the foundation of a church now, but you can still go down into the ancient temple. Can't help but cross your mind that maybe had things been a little different, the West might have had a different universal religion.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:09:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:10:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:15:35 PM EDT by Ardenner]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Here we go again
1-are YOU, yes YOU!! claming that early christianity was derived from this cult?
2-do YOU YOU YOU YOU claim that there was no historical figure "Jesus Christ"?
3- do YOU! claim that there were not really 12 apostles?



When we talk about cults in ancient times we are not talking about the same type of cult as the word refers to today. Belonging to a cult in the ancient world meant that you did as little as poured libations (wine or oil) once a year to a particular deity. Most people were members of many cults to many deities. People would not have been exclusive to Mithras. There are a lot of parallels between Christianity and other ancient religions. Oddly enough Christians and Jews alike were persecuted for being atheist; the true meaning of the word is one who denies existence in any god. The Romans would have not been offended if the other groups chose to worship one god differently than others, but denial in the existence of a god was a dangerous thing. Over the centuries the Romans imported many gods to Rome from other civilizations that they had conquered. The Romans would even invite gods of foreign cities to Rome before attacking a city. This way those gods who had received sacrifice from the soon to be destroyed city would not “miss out” as they would receive proper sacrifice at Rome. Religion in the ancient world is very complex and many aspects are still unknown to the best scholars.

ETA- It is known that Judaism was derived from a polytheistic religion in which Yahweh became increasingly more important to the point that other lesser gods were forgotten about.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:22:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:22:42 PM EDT by TheWind]
well he is accurate and the religion of Emperor Constintine was Mithrism...his Birthday was December 25, his mother was a virgin at his birth...mmmm?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:28:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:33:29 PM EDT by elvisp]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By elvisp:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Here we go again
1-are YOU, yes YOU!! claming that early christianity was derived from this cult?
2-do YOU YOU YOU YOU claim that there was no historical figure "Jesus Christ"?
3- do YOU! claim that there were not really 12 apostles?



Please put all hostility aside. Reread my post. I am not claiming anything. I want others opinion on this information. Do you have evidence that what I posted is false. Or that this Mithra "cult" did not exist before Christ?I got this info from the encylopedia not some wacko web site. Thanks.




Do you have evidence that what you post is true? So what if it is true? So what if it's false?



Even though I think you are looking for an arguement or some "AAHH-HAAAAA" angle to make me out a I will respond to what YOU ask because like I have tried to point out that I am not making any claim just looking for information because there are SOME intelligent people on this board.


1 Do I have any evidence this is true? Only what I have found online and the references given. I do not claim to be an expert on Mithra.

2 So what if it is true? Then it is most likely not true. Think about it.

3 So what if it is false? If it was false and came to be AD, then if would give [more] credibility to the Bible.

I don't think you will have the ability to understand what I am saying though. You are in defensive/arguementive mode.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:34:09 PM EDT
Looks like some of the old timers were right. Only the Christian related subjects will get shoved off to the corner called the Religion forum.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:35:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheWind:
well he is accurate and the religion of Emperor Constintine was Mithrism...his Birthday was December 25, his mother was a virgin at his birth...mmmm?



I think it is almost definitely true that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure. As far as the virgin thing - it is my understanding that in many languages there word for virgin and young woman are the same. I find the whole virgin birth thing to be pretty unlikely myself.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:38:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Looks like some of the old timers were right. Only the Christian related subjects will get shoved off to the corner called the Religion forum.



Well I had posted this in the "religion" forum but it was locked because it was deemed an "attack" on the Christians in the forum. That is why I am asking that this not be posted in the religion forum. Being that I see you are a regular there I dont know why you would respond to this thread anyways. Did you really have anything on topic to add?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:41:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:41:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ardenner:

Originally Posted By TheWind:
well he is accurate and the religion of Emperor Constintine was Mithrism...his Birthday was December 25, his mother was a virgin at his birth...mmmm?



I think it is almost definitely true that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure. As far as the virgin thing - it is my understanding that in many languages there word for virgin and young woman are the same. I find the whole virgin birth thing to be pretty unlikely myself.



What do you think of the similarities between Jesus and Mithra? Do you believe Jesus was the Son of God and died for our sins?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:44:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:45:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brassburn:
sigh lol



Is someone forcing you to read this??
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:51:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:54:53 PM EDT
How can they claim December 25th was the date anything was celebrated prior to the Georgian calendar?

G
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:01:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 7:03:26 PM EDT by elvisp]

Originally Posted By brassburn:
Not at all. Is someone forcing you to comment on my right to find this thread as silly as all the other religious (even if it doesn't start out saying "God/Jesus said") oriented threads guaranteed to start an 8 page and lock pissing contest?

It does get old, particularly when it is soooo predictable what will happen. It won't get old if you don't click on it...



You have a right to make a "whine" thread. Not continually whine in mine or anyone else's. Nobody likes a whiner.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:02:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:
How can they claim December 25th was the date anything was celebrated prior to the Georgian calendar?

G



Background info? Thanks
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:05:50 PM EDT
I've read several books on the subject and this post is accurate.
The similarities should cause anyone who is not closed minded to consider the facts.
The world could be the victims of the greatest hoax of all time.
NOTE: I said could.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:09:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Twister:
I've read several books on the subject and this post is accurate.
The similarities should cause anyone who is not closed minded to consider the facts.
The world could be the victims of the greatest hoax of all time.
NOTE: I said could.



Exactly. That is why I would like further information.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:11:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elvisp:

Originally Posted By Ardenner:

Originally Posted By TheWind:
well he is accurate and the religion of Emperor Constintine was Mithrism...his Birthday was December 25, his mother was a virgin at his birth...mmmm?



I think it is almost definitely true that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure. As far as the virgin thing - it is my understanding that in many languages there word for virgin and young woman are the same. I find the whole virgin birth thing to be pretty unlikely myself.



What do you think of the similarities between Jesus and Mithra? Do you believe Jesus was the Son of God and died for our sins?



I think that so much of the written record from that period has been lost that we will never know for sure. I think it is likely that there was substantial barrowing in the development of Christian ideology as there was with many other ancient religions. There are many many parallels between Christian stories and Mesopotamian myth that definitely predates Christ by over one thousand years. The bible is not an all new episode so to speak. This will be evident to anyone who familiarizes themselves with Hittie and Mesopotamian mythology.

That said, I don't think that that means the bible is not divinely inspired. Many of the myths from other cultures do contain supernatural beings but convey cultural not religious ideas. Myths of imitation into man hood or woman hood are a major theme across the ancient world. Flood myths exist in all the major Mediterranean cultures and many have a whole hell a lot of parallels to Noah.

I believe Jesus was a great man and did at lot of good and meant only the best. I don't know if more have been helped or harmed by Christianity (crusades, inquisition, etc) certainly as it is practiced today it brings a lot of good things to people in need. It is my personal belief that he was not the son of God or that he died for our sins, however, if other are comforted by faith in Jesus that is a good thing.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:14:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elvisp:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:
How can they claim December 25th was the date anything was celebrated prior to the Georgian calendar?

G



Background info? Thanks



scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/RomanCalendar.html

G
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:18:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Originally Posted By elvisp:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:
How can they claim December 25th was the date anything was celebrated prior to the Georgian calendar?

G



Background info? Thanks



scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/RomanCalendar.html

G


It appears that December was a part of this calender and that it was used in the years before Christ...
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:18:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Here we go again
1-are YOU, yes YOU!! claming that early christianity was derived from this cult?
2-do YOU YOU YOU YOU claim that there was no historical figure "Jesus Christ"?
3- do YOU! claim that there were not really 12 apostles?



The only person in Jewish history that comes anywhere close to a Jesus of Nazereth was a Yeshua from Nazereth. He was a yeshiva student who lived about 130 years before the time of the Christian Jesus.

He turned to idolotry and was expelled.

Aimless, the virgin birth is a dead give away.

Good post Elvis.



Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:18:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elvisp:

Originally Posted By Twister:
I've read several books on the subject and this post is accurate.
The similarities should cause anyone who is not closed minded to consider the facts.
The world could be the victims of the greatest hoax of all time.
NOTE: I said could.



Exactly. That is why I would like further information.



The book Fossilized Customs has alot of info on Mithras.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:20:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:
How can they claim December 25th was the date anything was celebrated prior to the Georgian calendar?

G



The Roman calendar it not that hard to figure out. We know when all the major Roman holidays fell and when events took place. If we did not understand their calendar the best we could only date the most important events in western civilization by year and season. Just for an example we know Lupercalia was celebrated February 15th, 15 days before the calends of March. Remember the whole beware of the ides of March line from Shakespeare? The Roman calendar was never really forgotten. The damn thing was written down in the center of every city ever year. There is tremendous archeological evidence. A lot of roman dates are based on kalends and ides.

Oh btw – the Pope made Lupercalia a Christian feast day. It was really popular with the pagans – they ran around slapping women with goat hide because that would obviously make them fertile, fun was had by all.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:20:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Here we go again
1-are YOU, yes YOU!! claming that early christianity was derived from this cult?
2-do YOU YOU YOU YOU claim that there was no historical figure "Jesus Christ"?
3- do YOU! claim that there were not really 12 apostles?



The only person in Jewish history that comes anywhere close to a Jesus of Nazereth was a Yeshua from Nazereth. He was a yeshiva student who lived about 130 years before the time of the Christian Jesus.

He turned to idolotry and was expelled.

Aimless, the virgin birth is a dead give away.

Good post Elvis.






Thanks OldGuy.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:23:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brassburn:
please, please, please ban the whole damned religion, christianity, evolution, darwinism bla bla bla from GD!

There is a religion forum I am told!





It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:27:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ardenner:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:
How can they claim December 25th was the date anything was celebrated prior to the Georgian calendar?

G



The Roman calendar it not that hard to figure out. We know when all the major Roman holidays fell and when events took place. If we did not understand their calendar the best we could only date the most important events in western civilization by year and season. Just for an example we know Lupercalia was celebrated February 15th, 15 days before the calends of March. Remember the whole beware of the ides of March line from Shakespeare? The Roman calendar was never really forgotten. The damn thing was written down in the center of every city ever year. There is tremendous archeological evidence. A lot of roman dates are based on kalends and ides.

Oh btw – the Pope made Lupercalia a Christian feast day. It was really popular with the pagans – they ran around slapping women with goat hide because that would obviously make them fertile, fun was had by all.



Okey doke. Point taken.

G
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:37:36 PM EDT
Holy crap.

A religious question that isn't getting buried.......yet.

I hear footsteps.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:11:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 10:16:00 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By brassburn:
please, please, please ban the whole damned religion, christianity, evolution, darwinism bla bla bla from GD!

There is a religion forum I am told!





It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.


That is false. You were not very tolerant of others from what I recall. Check the mirror. Its intolerance that is not tolerated and thats why you probably didnt feel welcome.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:15:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By brassburn:
please, please, please ban the whole damned religion, christianity, evolution, darwinism bla bla bla from GD!

There is a religion forum I am told!





It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.


That is false. You were not very tolerant of others from what I recall. Check the mirror. Its intolerance that is not tolerated and thats why you probably didnt feel welcome.





Please feel free not to comment in this thread if you do not have anything informative to add. This thread was previously posted in the religion forum and was locked. If you had even read this thread you would know that and why it was locked.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:36:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By brassburn:
please, please, please ban the whole damned religion, christianity, evolution, darwinism bla bla bla from GD!

There is a religion forum I am told!





It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.


That is false. You were not very tolerant of others from what I recall. Check the mirror. Its intolerance that is not tolerated and thats why you probably didnt feel welcome.





Were not the one's running and whinning and crying to the mod's about being bashed. Figure it out if your capable.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:11:36 PM EDT

I didn't think it was an option to start a religion thread in GD and simply say "don't move it to religion".

It would be an interesting thing to research and learn about, but it ought to be in the Religion forum...

Jim
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:14:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Twister:
It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.



Now that is just plain dishonest.

You ought to know better than that.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:17:06 PM EDT
Well then lets discuss the history that Mithras was the archetype for Jesus in Pauline Christianity...that in fact the truth about Jesus has been hidden for centuries.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:26:43 PM EDT
If you read atheist literature there are (allegedly, I have read teh claims not the 'original documents') many historical accounts that have a similar story to chrisianity. It is one of the many reasons why atheists reject the bible as mearly a story. Search the web for atheist links. I personally believe that christianity, the organized religion, was designed to keep the common man in line. There may or may not have been an actual man the new testement stories are built around. If you take the philosophy of jesus and discount the super natural and monotheism son of god stuff then you have a very budhist teaching.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:52:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 4:59:46 PM EDT by elvisp]

Originally Posted By TheWind:
Well then lets discuss the history that Mithras was the archetype for Jesus in Pauline Christianity...that in fact the truth about Jesus has been hidden for centuries.



Anyone care to share some historical records of Jesus? It is my understanding that there are only four times Jesus was mentioned in historical records and that they are flimsy.John_Wayne777 care to give it a shot???
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:56:35 PM EDT
i got ur mithra right here..


Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:14:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 5:29:29 PM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By TheWind:
Well then lets discuss the history that Mithras was the archetype for Jesus in Pauline Christianity...that in fact the truth about Jesus has been hidden for centuries.



For that arguement to be true, it would require the invention of Christ's account in the Bible by the Apostles....Who were all (but John) killed for their Christianity. Not likely that men go to such horrible deaths for something they made up to promote their own personal wealth and power now, is it?

Further, in the time period where Christ was supposed by critics to have been "invented", we have well documented records of persecutions against Christians, AND we have excellent records of what they believed as they were being persecuted.

None of that gels with the idea of Christ being made up and changed into something He wasn't by people with an agenda.

The simple fact is that we have manuscripts dating back to as early as 50 AD that demonstrate that the writings foundational to Christian faith were NOT invented later. The NT is the BEST documented and MOST reliable writing that survived ancient times, as there are over 5,000 manuscripts in GREEK ALONE.

Between known manuscripts and the writings of the post-Apostolic church fathers, we can construct a sound account of exactly what Christians believed during the first 200 years of Christianity, and from those same writings we can determine what the major teachings considered heretical were at the time. (gnosticism)

It is academic FACT that we are more sure about what the New Testament says than we are about ANY work from antiquity. Over 25,000 manuscripts and from many different time periods exist, and they agree in content and attributed authorship. We can be more sure of the NT's text than we can of Homer's Illiad, or even of many more recent writings such as many of Shakespeare's, and certainly we can be far more certain of Christian ideas than we can of the other religious mentions because there is VASTLY more documentation about Christianity than about stuff like Mithra...

Thus this idea that Christianity is something made up hundreds of years after Christ has NO basis in fact whatsoever. The best that can be argued is that it was made up around the time of Christ by people who were willing to die for a made up idea and who suffered the ire of the world's governments for something they knew not to be true.

Obviously that arguement doesn't stand up too well, which is why people insist on saying Christianity was all made up later.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:21:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Twister:


It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.



The only intolerance i witnessed was from 3 supposed jewish guys
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:38:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:49:55 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By brassburn:
please, please, please ban the whole damned religion, christianity, evolution, darwinism bla bla bla from GD!

There is a religion forum I am told!





It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.


That is false. You were not very tolerant of others from what I recall. Check the mirror. Its intolerance that is not tolerated and thats why you probably didnt feel welcome.





Were not the one's running and whinning and crying to the mod's about being bashed. Figure it out if your capable.



Oh I am more than capable and I have no need to cry to a mod, I can deal with troublemakers just fine on my own. And you were there only to cause trouble, no doubt about it. Sucks too because I was hoping to learn in some of the threads I started that I thought you would have been able to educate me on. Guess not. Thanks anyway
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:17:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:19:13 PM EDT by TheWind]
This has been a test..had it been for real I would request that several of you were banned form AR15.com.

My whole point is intolerance. And some of you are intolerant of Jews.

Point #1

It's a Christian religion forum. All other views are met with intolerance.


That is false. You were not very tolerant of others from what I recall. Check the mirror. Its intolerance that is not tolerated and thats why you probably didnt feel welcome.

Now that is just plain dishonest.

You ought to know better than that.



are not these personal attacks?

Point #2


The only intolerance i witnessed was from 3 supposed jewish guys



This is a very personal attack, also based on my religious beliefs

Point #3


Oh I am more than capable and I have no need to cry to a mod, I can deal with troublemakers just fine on my own. And you were there only to cause trouble, no doubt about it. Sucks too because I was hoping to learn in some of the threads I started that I thought you would have been able to educate me on. Guess not. Thanks anyway


A threat?, an accusation?

The intolerance is those of you that do not want ot hear anything you consider an attack on your beliefs, yet, you you are ready to attack us. The discussion never happend once you got involved...it turned to personal and our sources are no good. You refuse to acknowlege the acts of the Church against those that did not believe as they do. You refuse to achknowledge that there are other sources that contradict your position

Remember that as a Jew I have no problem with you believing as you want,any man that follows the laws of Noah will find entrance to Heaven. But G*d will not tolerate those who persecute his chosen, no matter how small.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:13:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 7:30:44 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By TheWind:

Point #3


Oh I am more than capable and I have no need to cry to a mod, I can deal with troublemakers just fine on my own. And you were there only to cause trouble, no doubt about it. Sucks too because I was hoping to learn in some of the threads I started that I thought you would have been able to educate me on. Guess not. Thanks anyway


A threat?, an accusation?

The intolerance is those of you that do not want ot hear anything you consider an attack on your beliefs, yet, you you are ready to attack us. The discussion never happend once you got involved...it turned to personal and our sources are no good. You refuse to acknowlege the acts of the Church against those that did not believe as they do. You refuse to aknowledge that there are other sources that contradict your position

Remember that as a Jew I have no problem with you believing as you want,any man that follows the laws of Noah will find entrance to Heaven. But G*d will not tolerate those who persecute his chosen, no matter how small.



Are you Twister? 2 Accounts? I am confused.

It was not a threat, quit being so defensive..What have I shown that I was intolerant of Jews? You cannot show it because if you observed any of my posts, I am far from intolerant of Jews. I cannot beleive you accuse me of such.

I think you are a little sensitive about the issue.

I even asked some questions regarding the Jewish faith because I did not want to be ignorant. Again How is that being intolerant or persecuting you? Please.

There is some hypocrisy in that forum as any others. I see some Christians slam other folks faiths, I see atheists slam other peoples faiths, and I even say some Jews slam the Christian faith. It is something quite a few are guilty of. Very few hands are clean.

I sought to learn in that forum, not get attacked for my beliefs or attack others for theirs. I have not been personally attacked and If I feel that I was, I would address it with them personal via IM in order to keep the crap private like it should be. There is nothing threatening about that. I have no idea how you can even fathom that being a threat.


Anyway. Like I said, not all are as innocent as they make themselves out to be. I would like to see more posts by folks of many faiths in there. I enjoy reading Dinos posts and he is an Atheist. Scuba Ed contributed quite a bit to my learning as well. I appreciate all those who seek to further understanding. Those who are in it for personal vendettas become painfully evident within a few posts and they I pretty much ignore. For me to say all Jews in that forum are intolerant because of the actions of others is quite bigoted. To say all Christians are intolerant because of the actions of othrs is bigoted as well.

I stive to be myself and be as Christ commanded of me, to answer questions as best I can without malice. If you cant see that, then I dont knwo what I can do because I certainly never meant to offend anyone.

Thanks you and good night. No thank you very much for lumping me in with those who you disagree with. That tactic sounds awefully familiar with some folks.



ETA looks like I got a lil sensitive bout it as well
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:25:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:32:47 PM EDT
Ok to be VERY brief, Mithraism spans both a considerable amount of TIME and Geography.

The permutations of it are rather sizeable it is only by picking and choosing from different times and places that you can sort of construct anything resembling Christianity (but not quite).

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:52:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 8:00:26 PM EDT by elvisp]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheWind:
Well then lets discuss the history that Mithras was the archetype for Jesus in Pauline Christianity...that in fact the truth about Jesus has been hidden for centuries.



For that arguement to be true, it would require the invention of Christ's account in the Bible by the Apostles....Who were all (but John) killed for their Christianity. Not likely that men go to such horrible deaths for something they made up to promote their own personal wealth and power now, is it? Is there historical evidence of these men? Is there any truth or proof otherwise to the following information:#

"The New Testament, the Church and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso (pronounced Peso) family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it ­ Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist ­ all are fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters; they tied the story to a specific time and place in history; and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is fictional!) characters.

"In the middle of the first century of the present era, Rome's aristocracy felt itself confronted with a growing problem. The Jewish religion was continuing to grow in numbers, adding ever more proselytes. Jews numbered more than 8,000,000, and were 10% of the population of the empire ...Repeatedy, religious-minded Judaean zealots were staging insurrections against the Herodian rulers of Judaea who were Piso's wife's relations. ...The Pisos searched for a solution to the two problems. They found it in the Jewish holy books, which were the foundation both for the rapid spread of the religion and for the zealots' refusal to be governed by Rome's puppets. The Pisos mocked, but marveled at, the Jewish belief in their holy books. Therefore, they felt a new "Jewish" book would be the ideal method to pacify the Judaeans and strenghten their inlaws' control of the country.

"The Jesus figure which Piso creates is a composite. ...Piso plagiarized the Hebrew scriptures.

"In addition to creating Jesus in literature, Piso created for himself another famous literary role, that of a purported Jewish general and then historian: Flavious Josephus. ...Piso is known publicly in history only under his pen name of Flavious Josepus. He does not appear as Arius Calpurnius Piso."
# PISO has scripted himself as all the main characters in the Bible, Koran...
# JOSEPH is a favorite secret name of Arius Calpurnius PISO. One of Piso's top guises (pen names) outside the bible is Flavius JOSEPHus, who is NOT, nor ever was a "Jewish Historian."


Further, in the time period where Christ was supposed by critics to have been "invented", we have well documented records of persecutions against Christians, AND we have excellent records of what they believed as they were being persecuted.

None of that gels with the idea of Christ being made up and changed into something He wasn't by people with an agenda.

The simple fact is that we have manuscripts dating back to as early as 50 AD that demonstrate that the writings foundational to Christian faith were NOT invented later. The NT is the BEST documented and MOST reliable writing that survived ancient times, as there are over 5,000 manuscripts in GREEK ALONE.

Between known manuscripts and the writings of the post-Apostolic church fathers, we can construct a sound account of exactly what Christians believed during the first 200 years of Christianity, and from those same writings we can determine what the major teachings considered heretical were at the time. (gnosticism)

It is academic FACT that we are more sure about what the New Testament says than we are about ANY work from antiquity. Over 25,000 manuscripts and from many different time periods exist, and they agree in content and attributed authorship. We can be more sure of the NT's text than we can of Homer's Illiad, or even of many more recent writings such as many of Shakespeare's, and certainly we can be far more certain of Christian ideas than we can of the other religious mentions because there is VASTLY more documentation about Christianity than about stuff like Mithra...Could you show proof of this?

Thus this idea that Christianity is something made up hundreds of years after Christ has NO basis in fact whatsoever. The best that can be argued is that it was made up around the time of Christ by people who were willing to die for a made up idea and who suffered the ire of the world's governments for something they knew not to be true.

Obviously that arguement doesn't stand up too well, which is why people insist on saying Christianity was all made up later.


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