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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/3/2002 10:16:12 PM EDT
Missouri signed into law today that all Missouri public schools have to say the Pledge of Allegiance at least once per week. Heard this on the news like 10 times tonight. If someone has a link please post. I think this is great! medcop
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 10:21:38 PM EDT
What else can you expect from Missouri but the CORRECT decision? They are home to Jesse James and Josie Wales. Damn proud to call them brothers in arms.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 10:28:42 PM EDT
One more reason to consider moving across the creek. Medcop & all you other show-me's, pray for your imprisoned bretheren here in the PRI.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 1:04:43 AM EDT
I hope that its the ..."under God"...version.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 1:09:08 AM EDT
Once again, the simpletons don't understand the court did not rule the pledge illegal. Only including the phrase "under god" is. And that is not how the Pledge was written to begin with... they are just returning it to the form its author originally inteneded.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 1:24:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By maxdram: I hope that its the ..."under God"...version.
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Why do you hope that? So other people's children will be indoctrinated into your idea of religion, instead of letting parents teach their own children as they see fit? Hmmm, maybe YOUR kids ought to be brainwashed at school to believe things that YOU don't believe in. Wouldn't that be great? Good grief. I'm an honorably discharged Army veteran, I donate money to help elderly folks, I'm an endowment member of the NRA, a life member of the pro-gun Law Enforcement Alliance of America, a long-time GOA member, I've been married for 11 years and never cheated on my wife, I don't kick my dog and don't smoke dope. Yet somehow I get the feeling I'm a second class citizen here just because I admit total ignorance as to whether or not God exists and therefore refuse to say He does or that America is "under" Him. Why do you guys have to be like this?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:10:38 AM EDT
Consider this: If God doesn't exist and you believe in Him, it won't really matter. But if He does exist and you don't believe, you might get a nasty surprise...
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:00:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean:
Originally Posted By maxdram: I hope that its the ..."under God"...version.
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Why do you hope that? So other people's children will be indoctrinated into your idea of religion, instead of letting parents teach their own children as they see fit? Hmmm, maybe YOUR kids ought to be brainwashed at school to believe things that YOU don't believe in. Wouldn't that be great? Good grief. I'm an honorably discharged Army veteran, I donate money to help elderly folks, I'm an endowment member of the NRA, a life member of the pro-gun Law Enforcement Alliance of America, a long-time GOA member, I've been married for 11 years and never cheated on my wife, I don't kick my dog and don't smoke dope. Yet somehow I get the feeling I'm a second class citizen here just because I admit total ignorance as to whether or not God exists and therefore refuse to say He does or that America is "under" Him. Why do you guys have to be like this?
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Crybaby [>Q]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:18:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By uncle-buck: Consider this: If God doesn't exist and you believe in Him, it won't really matter. But if He does exist and you don't believe, you might get a nasty surprise...
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Oh, great. So I should believe in God just to cover my ass? I bet that line of reasoning will score bonus points with the Big Guy. Maybe you might be the one with a surprise awaiting, if you follow that plan yourself.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:20:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Crybaby [>Q]
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Whatever, dude.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:21:28 AM EDT
That's why I bought my MO Ozark retreat back in '79.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:22:23 AM EDT
God is real, he is the creator, and you seem to be intelligent, just look around you, tell me, evolution does not happen, and has not in the past, it is so obvious, someone greater than man had to make all of this, it is simply common sense to believe in a creator
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:23:38 AM EDT
Fuzzbean: Is religion something you "teach" your children? Here is my point: I think we, as parents, can be a good example to our children by showing them the benefits from the relgion of our choice. Teaching children a particular religion by forcing it upon them and telling them all others are incorrect will only be met with questions and possible rejection later on. I believe that when kids "need" religion to answer questions that keep them up at night, they will seek one out that works the best for them. I know, if they choose something that is wacky, we can only advise them about the possible pitfalls as is our duty as parents. It has been my experience and observation that forced indoctrination upon children doesn't work, particularly when they reach their teens and begin to have their own thoughts. Our duty, as I see it, is to be a guiding force in the upbringing of our offspring. We cannot direct children to adopt our philosophies as this is stifling their own development. If we don't allow our children to think for themselves, they might develop nasty habits, like letting others (the govmt. [:(]) think for them. We can only pray that they develop a good sense of judgement to guide them and lead by example in the mean time. -White Horse p.s. Happy 4th of July!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:45:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By avengeusa: God is real, he is the creator, and you seem to be intelligent, just look around you, tell me, evolution does not happen, and has not in the past, it is so obvious, someone greater than man had to make all of this, it is simply common sense to believe in a creator
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Ah, the old "existence of design is evidence of a designer" argument. But I've always wondered, isn't the existence of a designer evidence of a designer's mother? Why is is simpler or more satisfactory to you to have the chicken first rather than the egg? My "common sense" says I don't know shit; I'm not about to pretend I have some kind special knowledge or insight into life's mysteries.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:50:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By avengeusa: God is real, he is the creator, and you seem to be intelligent, just look around you, tell me, evolution does not happen, and has not in the past, it is so obvious, someone greater than man had to make all of this, it is simply common sense to believe in a creator
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I believe in God. I'll always include the "under God" part. I think if you don't think there is a God, you are fooling yourself. I also believe that if you don't think evolution is possible and that creation according to the bible occured, then you are a damn moron who doesn't know anything about biology, or pretty much any science.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:52:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean: Why is is simpler or more satisfactory to you to have the chicken first rather than the egg?
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The egg, since all genetic mutations occur there and thus, the domesticated chicken occured there first.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:03:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted by uncle-buck: Consider this: If God doesn't exist and you believe in Him, it won't really matter. But if He does exist and you don't believe, you might get a nasty surprise...
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Ah yes, Pascal's Wager. The problem with this is that one cannot enforce belief with logic. For example, I am willing to pay you 1 billion dollars if you believe in unicorns. You can't, can you? As much as you would love to, you can't.
Originally Posted By avengeusa: God is real, he is the creator, and you seem to be intelligent, just look around you, tell me, evolution does not happen, and has not in the past, it is so obvious, someone greater than man had to make all of this, it is simply common sense to believe in a creator
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Natural selection happens every day. One can see it in the span of a week with bacteria in a petri dish. Introduce a hostile agent. Bacteria less capable of surviving die. The rest, which are resistant, multiply and pass on that trait. Mutations combined with environmental stresses: that's natural selection. It's why there's a new flu shot ever year; there are new virii every year. And how do you explain dinosaurs? They existed because we see their skeletons. We can even guess when they existed. But when are they mentioned in the Bible? Why do almost all fossils belong to species completely different than those existing today? Could it be because life on earth has undergone some sort of evolution? Maybe not exactly the way Darwin postulated, but it's hard to deny that it happened. Lastly, be careful with the use of the word "obvious" in an argument. It's very difficult to support.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:08:55 AM EDT
My "roots" run pretty deep here in MO and I can't think of any other place I would rather live, now if we could get the Governor to move this fast and decisively on a decent CCW we would be in great shape!!!!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:10:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fizassist: And how do you explain dinosaurs? They existed because we see their skeletons. We can even guess when they existed. But when are they mentioned in the Bible? Why do almost all fossils belong to species completely different than those existing today? Could it be because life on earth has undergone some sort of evolution? Maybe not exactly the way Darwin postulated, but it's hard to deny that it happened.
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Creationists have an argument for this one. Trust me, I used to live in Alabama. The big problem I have with such people is that they have a conclusion, and the evidence must fit what that strict conclusion. While evolutionary biologists have a vague idea of their conclusion, and use evidence to try and figure out what the conclusion really is. Creationists have their point B, and everything must prove it. Biologists don't know where their point B is yet. Biologists clap with glee everytime somebody pulls out a fossil that doesn't fit with the current theory, because it means it's different, and it's something to study, and figure out like a puzzle. Creationists apparently already know what the puzzle is, and will cut of pieces to make them fit. I also love the fact that, despite the fact that God is assumed to be all powerful and all knowing, there's no way he could create evolution. pfft.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:23:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade: I also love the fact that, despite the fact that God is assumed to be all powerful and all knowing, there's no way he could create evolution.
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Now, why the heck would God use a roundabout Rube Goldberg process like evolution to accomplish something He could just do directly by executive order? That would be like, say, Him sending His only son off to get killed, just to tidy up the sins of mankind.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:36:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean: Now, why the heck would God use a roundabout Rube Goldberg process like evolution to accomplish something He could just do directly by executive order? That would be like, say, Him sending His only son off to get killed, just to tidy up the sins of mankind.
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heheh. [;)] Yeah. God is always so direct and clear. That's why the bible never contradicts itself, and everybody completly understands what it means.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:47:23 AM EDT
So other people's children will be indoctrinated into your idea of religion
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God isn't a religion. God is God. I used to work with a very out-spoken atheist. He would fly into a rage if anyone spoke of God, religion, church, etc. I thought it ironic that his favorite curse was God D***. I could get under his skin with a single word. He was lots of fun. Eddie
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:17:53 AM EDT
ALLRIGHT!!! WOOOHOOO!!! It's been almost a year since I last got to read a classic AR15.com "Creation vs. Evolution" thread. Somebody e-mail RikWriter and Garandman and LET'S GET THIS PARTY STARTED!!! I think I might get some popcorn going.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:33:08 AM EDT
Biologists clap with glee everytime somebody pulls out a fossil that doesn't fit with the current theory, because it means it's different, and it's something to study, and figure out like a puzzle.
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Piltdown man comes to mind. Of course, I don't think the science community clapped about that one. Eddie
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:34:47 AM EDT
guys, don't hijack the man's thread on the creationism (could somebody tell me (in an email or IM, not this thread, what exaxtly that is) vs. evolution debate. as for the original point of the thread, i'm actually pissed off that they make the pledge mandatory. where's the freedom in that? and what if there is a non-christian who doesn't want to say the "under God" part, but lives his/her life as patriotically as anybody else. the pledge can stand without the "under God" part. the court ruling was bogus only because "under God" does NOT constitute an establishment of religion. not because "under God" has to be inserted to make the pledge valid. i don't think MO has any more right to force the Pledge to be spoken than the 9th circus court had in removing the "under God" phrase from the Pledge. there's no freedom in either decision. you can't legislate morality and you can't legislate allegiance. besides, merely saying the words doesn't mean diddly-squat. i'd rather live the words and never say them than say them everyday because of some legal edict handed down by the state and never live them.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:38:02 AM EDT
I was born in California. In kindergarten and 1st Grade we recited the Pledge every morning. Second grade 1975 or 1976 we stopped. I moved to Missouri the next year and we never recited the Pledge.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:39:52 AM EDT
I recited the pledge of Allegiance every day from Kindergarten to 6th grade... Didn't miss a day unless I was sick...
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:46:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 8:40:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 8:44:31 AM EDT by medcop]
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: ARLady, the words "under God" matter. Your homework assignment is to study the history of when, and why, they were added. It was in the 1950's and for a very powerful reason. As a matter of fact, it was the [b]exact[/b] reason our enemies are working so hard to have it removed today--godless Communism. [;)]
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Mike....this is a very nice reply! I believe the "Under God" part was added in 1954 to be exact. A child in school still has the choice of what God to believe in. Also, the child can choose NOT to say the Under God part if they so decide. Just remember....it does not say anything about whose GOD. Your God may be diff. from mine or the guy who lives next door. I think by making this a law is a upstanding thing for Missouri. I take the Pledge very serious! I said the pledge every day in school up to the 9th grade. To be honest....I average saying the pledge twice a month now! The pledge has nothing to do with evolution or anything like that. It has to do with being Patriotic and believing in a symbol of our freedom. Remember....people have and continue to die for that flag you say your Pledge to! So people need to stop bitching about saying the Pledge in its proper version. A complaint on the Pledge is like a complaint on the flag to me. medcop
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:12:12 PM EDT
Actually, the whole pledge does not appeal to me, with or without having God rammed down my throat. I think it's a piece of Reconstruction-era one-nation (a la one-world) propaganda, designed to brainwash our kids into never again questioning the authority of centralized government. I'd rather have my kids be patriotic because they see the advantages of liberty in the present and are familiar with the heroic struggles of the past, not because they repeated some mantra every day for 13 years under government supervision. Reminds me a little bit too much of those kids in Afghanistan that bang their heads on the Koran and chant "I hate America" for a couple hours every day. Not my idea of education. And why pledge allegiance to the [i]flag[/i], anyway? Why not pledge allegiance to the Constitution?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:25:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 12:26:48 PM EDT by Fuzzbean]
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: ARLady, the words "under God" matter. Your homework assignment is to study the history of when, and why, they were added. It was in the 1950's and for a very powerful reason. As a matter of fact, it was the [b]exact[/b] reason our enemies are working so hard to have it removed today--godless Communism. [;)]
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So, since I don't believe in God and don't want my kids being brainwashed by the government, I must be a communist? It then strikes me as mighty odd that I am currently engaged in my third very bothersome, expensive and time-consuming campaign for congress, travelling around a huge sprawling congressional district, struggling to make people more aware of the advantages of personal liberty, private property ownership, and free-market capitalism.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:56:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 1:53:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: you have gone from "all around good guy," to "cranky curmudgeon" of late. Are you okay?
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I didn't think I was being all THAT cranky. But it does disturb me that so many folks don't seem to see the difference between being free to voluntarily pray or speak of God of their own initiative on one hand, and being mandated to pray or acknowledge God by congress or the state legislature on the other hand. And this "not necessarily my God, just whatever God you feel like" excuse is unbelieveably lame. Not to get cranky again, but your logic also escapes me. So communists don't believe in God -- so what? Do we ALWAYS have to do 180 degrees opposite what communists do, even if it violates the freedoms and offends the personal beliefs of perfectly good and moral citizens? If communists DON'T jump off a cliff, does that mean we SHOULD jump off a cliff? The problem with communists (in this respect) is not that they do or do not believe in God; the problem is that they want to use governmental power to force their beliefs on everyone. Just like some other folks around here.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:47:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:30:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Now, the point that we are seeing differently is that I do not see Missouri's law as [i]forcing[/i] anyone to say the Pledge. The mandate for schools to "say the Pledge" merely provides a mandate for the schools to provide the [i]opportunity[/i] for students to learn/say the Pledge. No one is forced to say it, no one has "beliefs" forced upon them--religious, or even patriotic. Without the mandate, students could not realistically stand and recite the Pledge spontaneously, for obvious reasons.
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Why could students not say the pledge spontaneously? Surely they would have time during lunch, or between classes. The only thing coercing them not to say it would be peer pressure, and the fear of appearing out-of-step. The same thing, no more and no less, coercing non-religious students into saying the pledge in schools where government employees are required to lead students in saying it. You do not seem to be applying the same standards equally to both sides of this issue.
I see reciting the Pledge as a small step in this direction. You are free to disagree, but I would not vote for you knowing that. Patriotism matters.
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So, you are saying I am not patriotic? That requiring others to mouth words is more patriotic than expending great energy to educate people about freedom and our Constitution? It is only that my idea of patriotism is different from yours, not that I do not have such feelings. If you lived in my district and would not vote for me, do you know who my opponents are? Maybe you'd just stay home.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:03:31 PM EDT
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