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Posted: 10/27/2006 1:39:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 1:41:27 AM EST by sherrick13]
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 1:54:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 1:55:50 AM EST by 1IV]
Minimum wage is for minimum labor.

Ummmm If you are literate and driven, have a HS diploma and all your limbs there is no reason to be settling for minimum wage. If you can not find a job where you are at..... move. You can be poor anywhere, might as well have a view too.

Being poor and comfortable is an art. Dicipline is required. Practice comfortable poor, and the rest will come easy. Stay on the look out for the next oppertunity, and have a goal. Also if you can barely take care of yourself, try not to take care of others.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 2:17:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
Some of you think the mininum wage is good. It sucks let me explain.

All it really is is a price control...on labor. We all know price controls are bad.
If you put a price cap on say, gasoline, then the demand for that gas will be higher than the supply at that price. Thus a shortage will result.

Now labor is just one of the resources firms use to supply their goods and services. Let's look at a pizza shop. If they pay $5 a gallon for their pizza sauce and the .gov comes in and says they now have to pay $8 a gallon what will happen? They will either have to raise their prices and/or cut costs in other areas and thus their quality will be worse. Plus the pizza sauce suppliers as an industry will be hurt because the demand for sauce at $8 is lower than at $5. The whole effect is a few pizza sauce suppliers are better off but everyone else in the whole economy is worse off.

Now just substitute labor for sauce. It reduces the demand for labor so some of the people that are supposedly being helped now have no wage at all because the supply of labor at that wage level is higher than the demand for it. It increased the cost to the company so they either have to cut elsewhere and lower quality or maybe just go out of busniess. The ONLY people that where helped were the few that actually got the raise and the rest of the economy suffers because of it.

There are other factors but this is a simple model that shows the effect of raising the minimum wage.

Actually, most places that pay minimum wage run with the leanest staff possible. So it's not that there will be fewer jobs in most places, but instead that the employer will simply pass the added cost on to the consumer.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 2:20:30 AM EST
I make 4 times the minimum so who cares.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 2:21:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 2:23:47 AM EST by sherrick13]
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:19:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By cammobunker:
Actually, most places that pay minimum wage run with the leanest staff possible. So it's not that there will be fewer jobs in most places, but instead that the employer will simply pass the added cost on to the consumer.


Not true.

It creates an artificial price floor for labor, and in doing so squeezes out lots of the most disadvantaged workers.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:21:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
Some of you think the mininum wage is good. It sucks let me explain.

All it really is is a price control...on labor. We all know price controls are bad.
If you put a price cap on say, gasoline, then the demand for that gas will be higher than the supply at that price. Thus a shortage will result.

Now labor is just one of the resources firms use to supply their goods and services. Let's look at a pizza shop. If they pay $5 a gallon for their pizza sauce and the .gov comes in and says they now have to pay $8 a gallon what will happen? They will either have to raise their prices and/or cut costs in other areas and thus their quality will be worse. Plus the pizza sauce suppliers as an industry will be hurt because the demand for sauce at $8 is lower than at $5. The whole effect is a few pizza sauce suppliers are better off but everyone else in the whole economy is worse off.

Now just substitute labor for sauce. It reduces the demand for labor so some of the people that are supposedly being helped now have no wage at all because the supply of labor at that wage level is higher than the demand for it. It increased the cost to the company so they either have to cut elsewhere and lower quality or maybe just go out of busniess. The ONLY people that where helped were the few that actually got the raise and the rest of the economy suffers because of it.

There are other factors but this is a simple model that shows the effect of raising the minimum wage.
Not only do you have the negative economic effects, but also it also comes down to the freedom to hire any willing person at any agreed work rate. Another place that governmnet doesn't belong.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:22:53 AM EST
Well if they bump up thier pay mine wont go up so I lost money.

Back when they wanted to put it at like $7 I was making $8, if it was raised I was going to go work at somewhere bagging groceries or flipping fries with less stress.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:23:41 AM EST
People still work for minimum wage?

In our area, Northeastern Pa., min wage just doesn't cut it. The last two employees at our store were hired at $7 per hour or more. If we try to pay minimum wage, we don't get any takers.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:24:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:31:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Waldo:

Hey, I remember having my wages frozen for 1000 days by Nixon.


Holy crap you're old!

j/k

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:45:12 AM EST
The OP had the demand aspect of the effect of minimum wage, but let's look at the supply.

Let's say I own a business, and I can afford to pay ten people $8/hr per employee, then I'm told I have to pay $9/hr to each. The supply of money coming in (profit) hasn't changed, but my expenditures have. That leaves me with only three choices:

- I can continue to lose money paying more for labor than I can afford--bad business, that
- I can pass the cost on to the customer by raising prices, but that means I'll have less profit, because fewer people will buy my goods/services at a higher cost
- I can fire (or not hire) one person, so now I have 9 people at $9/hr. That usually leads to more work for the remaining nine people at the same pay, which drives their motivation down. It also means that my productivity goes down, since I've got less man-hours available to do the job. That also usually leads to a drop in customer satisfaction, which affects my profit margin.

As you can see, from a business perspective, a raise in the minimum wage produces the exact OPPOSITE effects in the economy as intended.

Oh, yeah, then there's the racial component. The folks who are usually fired/not hired because of the hike in the min wage are usually the disadvantaged, "economically challenged" demographics, meaning a min wage hike winds up hurting most the very people it's supposed to help.

Typical liberal bad idea.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:48:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By limaxray:people it's supposed to help.

Typical liberal bad idea.
The only thing that matters is the intent on the law and it makes you feel good that you tried something.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:51:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 3:52:07 AM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:54:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:56:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By limaxray:people it's supposed to help.

Typical liberal bad idea.
The only thing that matters is the intent on the law and it makes you feel good that you tried something.


And, like most liberal solutions, it hurts exactly the same people that it was supposed to help.

Liberals that understand economics know this. That means only one thing.....they really do not care about the people on the bottom.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:59:10 AM EST
Maybe if you can't afford to pay your employees, then you shouldn't be in business.

This is the same mentality that has helped flood North Carolina with illegal aliens. The farmers started it, and then building contractors saw how well it worked and joined in.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:59:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
Some of you think the mininum wage is good. It sucks let me explain.

All it really is is a price control...on labor. We all know price controls are bad.
If you put a price cap on say, gasoline, then the demand for that gas will be higher than the supply at that price. Thus a shortage will result.

Now labor is just one of the resources firms use to supply their goods and services. Let's look at a pizza shop. If they pay $5 a gallon for their pizza sauce and the .gov comes in and says they now have to pay $8 a gallon what will happen? They will either have to raise their prices and/or cut costs in other areas and thus their quality will be worse. Plus the pizza sauce suppliers as an industry will be hurt because the demand for sauce at $8 is lower than at $5. The whole effect is a few pizza sauce suppliers are better off but everyone else in the whole economy is worse off.

Now just substitute labor for sauce. It reduces the demand for labor so some of the people that are supposedly being helped now have no wage at all because the supply of labor at that wage level is higher than the demand for it. It increased the cost to the company so they either have to cut elsewhere and lower quality or maybe just go out of busniess. The ONLY people that where helped were the few that actually got the raise and the rest of the economy suffers because of it.

There are other factors but this is a simple model that shows the effect of raising the minimum wage.


Your model is bullshit, because it doesn't differentiate between what people do with $8 an hour vs what the sauce company does with $8 a jar. A person who makes minimum wage spends 100% of it on something else (often on other things that are made by people making minimum wage). A sauce company (hopefully) takes it's profits and pays it out to its owners, who may or may not spend it.

The whole point of minimum wage has nothing to do with the individual, but of the health of the economy as a whole. By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing into the class of people who spend 100% of the money that they earn.
There are NO successful economies that don't have a minimum wage. It's rather strange, I've never been able to convince anyone who advocates an abolition of the minimum wage to move to a libertarian paradise like Cambodia...

Where people on the left go horribly wrong with the minimum wage is the argument that "minimum wage isn't a living wage!". The point of minimum wage has absolutely nothing to do with "living wage", it has everything to do with controlling how money flows through our economy as a whole. I'm not adverse to adjusting the minimum wage, even possibly moving it up, but to say "It should be $11 an hour so that people can afford things" is just dumb. We need to pick a minimum wage that hits the sweet spot that maximizes the overall economic impact of that wage. This might be higher or lower than the current minimum wage.

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:02:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By TX_CO4:
I make 4 times the minimum so who cares.


You remind me of an important point.

Even though they make far more, Union jobs are often tied to the minimum wage, so they (Unions) are often VERY interested in increasing the minimum wage, since it helps them -- even though it HURTS people making the actual min. wage.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:02:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
....By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing.....


Holy smoke.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:05:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
The whole point of minimum wage has nothing to do with the individual, but of the health of the economy as a whole. By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing into the class of people who spend 100% of the money that they earn.
There are NO successful economies that don't have a minimum wage. It's rather strange, I've never been able to convince anyone who advocates an abolition of the minimum wage to move to a libertarian paradise like Cambodia...

Where people on the left go horribly wrong with the minimum wage is the argument that "minimum wage isn't a living wage!". The point of minimum wage has absolutely nothing to do with "living wage", it has everything to do with controlling how money flows through our economy as a whole. I'm not adverse to adjusting the minimum wage, even possibly moving it up, but to say "It should be $11 an hour so that people can afford things" is just dumb. We need to pick a minimum wage that hits the sweet spot that maximizes the overall economic impact of that wage. This might be higher or lower than the current minimum wage.

And please explain to me, mr communist, just where in the US Constitution can you find where the government should control wage prices?
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:16:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 4:19:59 AM EST by TravisM1]

Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
min wage just doesn't cut it.


And it shouldnt. Hence, "Minimum" wage.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The only people making minimum wage, are the ones who dont want to do anything else. Here's an example.

I know a woman in her late 40s. Not handicapped physically or mentally. Her husband is unable to work, and she had to start working. She has a high school education.
She has no kids to care for, her and her husband is able to take care of himself.
I told her that I would get her a job as a machine operator where I work, making $13.80 an hour starting wage. She didnt want to do it, because the job is swing shift.
Instead, she runs herself ragged working two minimum wage jobs- one at walmart, and the other at a nursing home. All because she doesnt want to work different shifts.



Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
....By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing.....


Holy smoke.


Yup. Just what we all need. The government controlling one more thing.
Goddamn communists.



Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:31:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Huh? What dat mean?


It means that the market is unable to naturally price the value of labor through normal supply and demand forces. It has about the same effect as a price cap. Where you don't allow the market to work, you create problems instead of solving them.

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:34:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
The whole point of minimum wage has nothing to do with the individual, but of the health of the economy as a whole. By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing into the class of people who spend 100% of the money that they earn.




Dude....where'd you get YOUR economics degree?



There are NO successful economies that don't have a minimum wage. It's rather strange, I've never been able to convince anyone who advocates an abolition of the minimum wage to move to a libertarian paradise like Cambodia...


Umm....I believe the US had tremendous economic growth BEFORE the minimum wage was even thought of.

Again, where'd you get YOUR economics degree?




Where people on the left go horribly wrong with the minimum wage is the argument that "minimum wage isn't a living wage!". The point of minimum wage has absolutely nothing to do with "living wage", it has everything to do with controlling how money flows through our economy as a whole. I'm not adverse to adjusting the minimum wage, even possibly moving it up, but to say "It should be $11 an hour so that people can afford things" is just dumb. We need to pick a minimum wage that hits the sweet spot that maximizes the overall economic impact of that wage. This might be higher or lower than the current minimum wage.


Or....Here's a thought! We could let MARKET FORCES determine the "minimum" wage.

What a concept!
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:37:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:40:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By TravisM1:

Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
min wage just doesn't cut it.


And it shouldnt. Hence, "Minimum" wage.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The only people making minimum wage, are the ones who dont want to do anything else. Here's an example.

I know a woman in her late 40s. Not handicapped physically or mentally. Her husband is unable to work, and she had to start working. She has a high school education.
She has no kids to care for, her and her husband is able to take care of himself.
I told her that I would get her a job as a machine operator where I work, making $13.80 an hour starting wage. She didnt want to do it, because the job is swing shift.
Instead, she runs herself ragged working two minimum wage jobs- one at walmart, and the other at a nursing home. All because she doesnt want to work different shifts.



Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
....By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing.....


Holy smoke.


Yup. Just what we all need. The government controlling one more thing.
Goddamn communists.





When I said minimum wage doesn't cut it, I meant that I can't pay that because no one will take the job for that amount of money.

I'm talking about a convenience store clerk in a good area, not the typical stop-and-rob.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:41:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:43:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:43:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
What problems? Do you have a diagram with stick figures maybe?


Say the equilibrium minimum wage for workers is $4/hr. Now the .gov comes along and establishes a $5.15/hr minimum wage.

Labor just became $1.15/hr more expensive, but the overall productivity of the workers has not changed.

What will this do to the demand for labor at the minimum wage?

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:46:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:46:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:47:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:52:30 AM EST
Look you can not stick facts in to the liberal’s dream world. They just get pissed! You raise minim wage and every one is happy there is more for every body and nobody suffers. Were does the extra money come from? Who pays the extra money? What effect does this have on the rest of the economy? Liberal’s think one dimensional and short term.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:56:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
The whole point of minimum wage has nothing to do with the individual, but of the health of the economy as a whole. By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing into the class of people who spend 100% of the money that they earn.
There are NO successful economies that don't have a minimum wage. It's rather strange, I've never been able to convince anyone who advocates an abolition of the minimum wage to move to a libertarian paradise like Cambodia...


Successful economies have nothing to do with minimum wage - the fact that most 1st world countries have one is an unfortunate side-effect of success... We can (unfortunately) afford socialisim...

The problem Cambodia has that we do not is that we have a stable government and a (relatively) secure nation. Sure, we have terrorist issues, but when's the last time we were in a real live force-on-force war on our own ccntinental soil? The late 1800s...

THAT is what allows us to have a successful economy - we have a secure foundation to build one on.

Minimum wage IS a bad news concept economically - even your view of it flies in the face of 'good' economics.

You do NOT want to try and force money to the bottom of the economy - you want to let it flow where it is naturally headed. The folks who spend 100% of their money do not do anything to grow the economy - remember, our economy does not turn soley on the sales figures from Wal Mart. The folks who INVEST large amounts of their money do, as they provide the funding for continued growth.

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:52:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Umm....I believe the US had tremendous economic growth BEFORE the minimum wage was even thought of.


You might want to fact check that a bit. Minimum wage was introduced in 1933 to combat the Depression by forcing more money to flow through the economy. If you decide that you're going to look at our pre-WWI economic growth, then you're basically looking at an agrarian based society.


Or....Here's a thought! We could let MARKET FORCES determine the "minimum" wage.


Market forces will determine the minimum wage that is optimum between an employer and an employee. That much is true. But the market forces that set minimum wage don't operate on a macro level to control the number of times an individual dollar is spent in America per year.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:00:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
You are paid what you are worth. If you are only worth $5 and the minimum wage is $8 guess what happens. You can't make peoples' labor more valuable by just legislation.


That's my point. Minimum wage ISN'T about setting the value of labor, it's about controlling the rate at which money flows through the economy. Inflation is controlled (among other things) by interest rates, monetary supply, and labor pricing, all of which are controlled by the federal government. If you oppose government intervention on constitutional grounds, you should also oppose governnment control of the monetary supply...
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 4:16:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By pliftkl: Minimum wage was introduced in 1933 to combat the Depression by forcing more money to flow through the economy. If you decide that you're going to look at our pre-WWI economic growth, then you're basically looking at an agrarian based society.

Have you ever heard of the industrial revolution and the roaring 20's? All of this happened long before the great depression. What killed us during the depression was industry protectionism, those policies put draconian tarrifs on imports causing our economy to come to a screaching hault.

We pretty much ended the agrarian society in 1880 (while some isolated parts of the US stayed agrarian all the way up to the early 70's).
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 12:01:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
You are paid what you are worth. If you are only worth $5 and the minimum wage is $8 guess what happens. You can't make peoples' labor more valuable by just legislation.


That's my point. Minimum wage ISN'T about setting the value of labor, it's about controlling the rate at which money flows through the economy. Inflation is controlled (among other things) by interest rates, monetary supply, and labor pricing, all of which are controlled by the federal government. If you oppose government intervention on constitutional grounds, you should also oppose governnment control of the monetary supply...


Logic fault--minimum wage is EXACTLY about the government setting the value of labor, at $6.15 an hour--higher than what market forces would otherwise drive the cost of unskilled labor.

And you are completely wrong when you say that labor pricing is controlled by the federal government. That's true, but only in the sense that someone had this stupid idea to set a "minimum living wage" that everyone had to be paid. Circular argument--labor pricing is controlled by the federal government, because the federal government sets the minimum wage. That argument has NO bearing on the reality of market forces and the cost of renumeration of skilled vs. unskilled labor.

A minimum-wage job should NOT be something someone can live on. It should be a starter job for unskilled labor, giving the worker basic job experience and, hopefully, a desire to do something better than sling burgers or wipe down toilets.

Read my post on page 1--minimum wages, no matter how they're prettied up, lead to more unemployment in the very demographics they are supposed to help.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 2:33:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
Market forces will determine the minimum wage that is optimum between an employer and an employee.


Precisely.



That much is true. But the market forces that set minimum wage don't operate on a macro level to control the number of times an individual dollar is spent in America per year.


????????????

Again, what Macroeconomics professor did a number on your head?
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 4:10:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By skinnysarge79:
Maybe if you can't afford to pay your employees, then you shouldn't be in business.

This is the same mentality that has helped flood North Carolina with illegal aliens. The farmers started it, and then building contractors saw how well it worked and joined in.



yeah if you come anywhere near my town you may want to know how to not speaks thee english.

it has gotten that bad and having 2 chicken plants is worse. one of them being Tyson.

and we have alot of farms in the rural areas.


Link Posted: 10/29/2006 4:36:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 4:38:18 PM EST by Tim84K10]

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
The whole point of minimum wage has nothing to do with the individual, but of the health of the economy as a whole.

Hmm, the collective economy. Sounds like socialism to me!!

By setting the minimum wage at the correct level, the government can provide stimulous to the economy by controlling the amount of money flowing into the class of people who spend 100% of the money that they earn.

Government exists to protect the liberty of its citizens. Government control of the economy is illegitimate in our society. Simply put, "That's not the role of government"

There are NO successful economies that don't have a minimum wage. That says nothing to prove your point. Just because a lot of countries are foolish does NOT mean that minimum wage isn't a stupid idea.

It's rather strange, I've never been able to convince anyone who advocates an abolition of the minimum wage to move to a libertarian paradise like Cambodia...

Perhaps because Cambodia is a dump. That doesn't mean the United States would be if we repealed the minimum wage

Where people on the left go horribly wrong with the minimum wage is the argument that "minimum wage isn't a living wage!".

This is nothing more than an opinion expression. I think people that are economically to the left of myself go horribly wrong advocating government mandated minimum wage at all.

The point of minimum wage has absolutely nothing to do with "living wage", it has everything to do with controlling how money flows through our economy as a whole.

Not the role of government

I'm not adverse to adjusting the minimum wage, even possibly moving it up, but to say "It should be $11 an hour so that people can afford things" is just dumb. We need to pick a minimum wage that hits the sweet spot that maximizes the overall economic impact of that wage. This might be higher or lower than the current minimum wage.

It's a good thing we have libtards like you to tell me that we need to pick a minimum wage and where to set it. After all, your advocacy FOR having a minimum wage shows that you are obviously a well-educated economist.


WOW!!

Finally, one topic of discussion where I can AGREE with the conservatives!!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 4:57:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2006 4:58:10 PM EST by Landrace]

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
A person who makes minimum wage spends 100% of it on something else (often on other things that are made by people making minimum wage). A sauce company (hopefully) takes it's profits and pays it out to its owners, who may or may not spend it.


Very little money is stowed away under a mattress, and certainly NOT the assets of a company or the wealthy. All of that money is invested back into the economy. That's how people get credit cards, loans, and capital for businesses.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 7:18:49 PM EST
Can't let this one die already. The communists are invating ARFCOM, folks. Just read this post.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 8:22:07 PM EST
Market forces are pretty much at work its damn hard to find a job that just pays minimum

Hell I could find 10 part time jobs tomorrow that pay at least 50% more than minimum that i would not have to do shit at, and probaby 5-6 full time jobs that pay 2x min but you would have to work a little

and this is just in the midwest
I
f the minimum wage ended tomorrow it would not effect much but if it got raised it would effectly cut the wages of the above mentioned jobs

Link Posted: 10/30/2006 8:42:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com: If the minimum wage ended tomorrow it would not effect much but if it got raised it would effectly cut the wages of the above mentioned jobs
Sounds like more reason for 'gubment not to interfere with minimum wage laws. Heck, we should LOWER the minimum wage to $1/hr. Bums gotta work, too!
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