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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:23:37 PM EDT
[#1]
If it kills better than ball ammo....yes Im for it....the geneva convention was written last century....a whole new battlefield in the 21st century
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:24:31 PM EDT
[#2]
if it works better, use it
efficiency is key |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:24:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Would've been nice when I was in.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:24:54 PM EDT
[#4]
I think they should be allowed to use heat seaking child killers if it means they kill the fucking enemy.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:31:52 PM EDT
[#5]
use of HP ammo may or may not be relevant in regards to FMJ.
FMJ penetrates helments and or soft armor much better than hp. most combat troops are using rifles anyway. most pistols tend to have fewer issues with feeding ball |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:33:34 PM EDT
[#6]
I'd like to see them using the best possible ammunition for the current mission. If that is HP, then by all means-- use it.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:34:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Whatever works best for them to get the job done effectively.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:34:48 PM EDT
[#8]
IIRC, Marines here have said said theyre using HP rounds in 5.56
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:34:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Yes, expanding ammo is good for miliary use.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:36:00 PM EDT
[#10]
How about this: The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III: "The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."
The whole intent behind that was to ban "unnecessary suffering". So, we can destroy a grid square with MLRS, use flame throwers, toe popper land mines, and other such fun things, but hollow points are a no-go? It's outmoded and dead, but it's specifically in the treaty. At this point, the custom of warfare would probably allow hollow points. But, we'd have to pull out of the Hague treaty or sign a new one. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:36:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Think of all of that Russian surplus that's being shot at American troops in Iraq. If we hadn't stuck to FMJ throughout the Cold War, the other side wouldn't have either.
Just a thought. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:43:20 PM EDT
[#12]
The U.S. never signed the Hague Convention. We just follow it out of nicety. We could start using hollowpoints tomorrow and all that would change would be the requisition forms and whatnot.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:47:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Doesn't the fact we never signed it make it null and void for any conflict/war/uprising/bar fight the United States gets involved in regardless if we follow the rules or not? I recall something to that effect. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:48:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Hence the tacticool renaming of hollow point boat tail match bullets to OTM - Open Tip Match. No hollow point, less flamesuit needed.
And tacticools love acronyms! To me, they will always be MHPBT |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:49:06 PM EDT
[#15]
... only if the bullet cavities are packed with bacon grease.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:49:28 PM EDT
[#16]
None of our enemies care about the Geneva Conventions, why should we?
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:54:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Err, yeah. If you don't sign a treaty, you're not covered by the treaty and don't have to abide by its rules. We follow it even though we didn't sign it, regardless. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:55:01 PM EDT
[#18]
I think we should employ 500 megaton hollow points. That would end the conflicts faster. J/K
 HPs would be a great advantage at ranges over 125m, and Ballistic Tips would also be a good choice IMO. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:55:33 PM EDT
[#19]
man after my own heart 
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Posted: 12/3/2007 3:58:26 PM EDT
[#20]
What do you think 168 Sierra's are?
We use them, but they're "not designed for expansion." Like previously mentioned, it's outdated and antiquated. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:00:21 PM EDT
[#21]
The correct LOAC answer would be "Hollowpoints are not allowed", but that answer is utter bullshit.
The current enemy is not a flag country, and does not fall under the Hague Convention. Insurgents do not have the protection of the HC. So hollowpoint expanding rounds would be legal, and I would support that decision wholeheartedly. Against the military of another country they are not allowed. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:00:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Would our boys rather be shot at with FMJ or Hollowpoints? If it were me, I'd say hollowpoints because of the armor that our troops are currently sporting. But then again, a good leg shot with an HP is not as nice as an in and out shot  , but I'd say there's less likelihood of any sort of penetration of light armor with HP's. It would be a tradoff.War is so fucked up. Why do we make it even more compicated by making rules about it?!  Of course, there are very important international treaties that ban the use of torture which I believe are very necessary. That's about the only thing I see eye to eye with that McCain feller... 
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:05:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Erm might want to double check that. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:07:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Depleted Uranium 5.56mm rounds..
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:07:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Just let them use whatever kills Hadjis best.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:07:39 PM EDT
[#26]
HP ammo would probably help A LOT with the problems we've been having with the FMJ stuff we use now...
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:08:50 PM EDT
[#27]
I've always wondered what the moral difference is between shooting someone with expanding ammo and blowing someone to pieces with a bomb.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:09:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Signed, but not ratified. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:11:16 PM EDT
[#29]
Abso-friggin-lutely!!!! We are not fighting a war against a nation, our enemies have no conscience, the least we can do is kill them more quickly errr humanely
For example, the 9mm pistols carried by our soldiers would be much more effective if they were using Rangers/Gold Dot etc..... |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:11:49 PM EDT
[#30]
I would like to see some proof of this. The only military weapons I've seen loaded with 5.56 was the M9s that our MPs carry here in the Lejeune area. The M16s at the gates are loaded FMJs. A lot of folks seem to forget that those conventions and treaties usually only apply when fighting UNIFORMED members of another nations military. Last I checked insurgents aren't exactly uniformed members of any nations military. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:12:17 PM EDT
[#31]
What I ment was, there is a provision in the treaty that states, if a non signer enters a war the treatry is non binding to the signers. Here's the text
Even though we are playing by the rules our "allies" and enemies are under no obligation to do so. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:15:42 PM EDT
[#32]
??? MK262, and M118LR ammo both have "Hollow points", although they are not designed to expand. I have taken up this issue with the AF 3 times to get the LOAC training to show facts rather than the "generally accepted regulation". All three times I was told while I was "technically correct", I was still expected to follow what the training said. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:16:26 PM EDT
[#33]
I was informed that Airforce ravens use hollow points in thier M9's. Dont know how true it is,but one of those thing that ya hear. Maybe a zoomie can verify this..
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:17:42 PM EDT
[#34]
No, they get issued M882 and M855 like the rest of us. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:18:23 PM EDT
[#35]
It has a purpose. OTOH so does FMJ.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:19:50 PM EDT
[#36]
We can use a fucking nuclear weapon....
But we can't use hollow point bullets... Gotta love the logic 
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:20:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Doesn't the hague convention ban Balloon dropped bombs? I'm pretty sure they meant any form of air dropped bomb, but planes hadn't been invented yet. Didn't it say something along those lines?
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:21:05 PM EDT
[#38]
I believe it was cincinnatus that said he'd been using HP in Iraq. I'd rather have the shit in a counter-insurgency. Less chance of over-penetration (right?) and 77gr HPBTs would be oh so fucking sweet in an SPR. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:21:28 PM EDT
[#39]
They fire 5.56 out of a M9????(M9 is the 9mm beretta) |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:26:04 PM EDT
[#40]
M855 out of the M16A2 or the M4 M882 out of the M9 They get the same ammunition as the rest of us. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:26:24 PM EDT
[#41]
USCG shoots Ranger JHP's out of our Sig 229's for LE missions.
If we are involved in any DOD mission, we have to use Ball. But that doesn't matter since a handful of units still have M9's, mine included. We have to shoot up a few million rounds of A363 before we get Sigs.....or so I've heard. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:35:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Here's the archived thread about the USMC using JHP.
archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=575084 |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:36:26 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm sure the enemy abides by them every time they have our guys? Wait, you mean they don't?!?! You mean that in terms of the Geneva conventions, the NAZIs were the best behaved enemies we've fought since they were written? If it'll serve a valid purpose, I'm all for any means necessary used on EPWs. Maybe if they started treating our prisoners like human beings (or stopped committing other war crimes) I'd feel differently. But the situation is as it is. Torturing soldiers is wrong. And illegal. Torturing these RIF barbarians is neither. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:38:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Why would anyone here be against it??
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Posted: 12/3/2007 4:59:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Some of our SOF use hollowpoint ammunition in their pistols quite frequently.
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Posted: 12/3/2007 5:06:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Exactly. 5sub |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 5:08:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Wrong answer. We carry hollowpoints in our M9's for stateside SF duty. Not sure if the Ravens carry it on overseas missions. I am not a raven, but am Security Forces in CATM. And Air Guard at that. Can't remember who makes it though but I can find out. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 5:08:17 PM EDT
[#48]
War is Hell. Use everything in your arsenal to effectively destroy the enemy(with out starting a full fledged nuclear war of course)
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Posted: 12/3/2007 5:10:47 PM EDT
[#49]
Ideally, soldiers would have JHP's in their pistols and FMJ in their rifles. In a military setting, the penetrative ability of rifle fire is very important, justifying the use of FMJ. If you need to shoot through something, you are probably going to be using a rifle or a machine gun to do it with.
If a soldier is using a pistol in a fight, it means that something has gone very wrong. He's going to need every edge he can possibly get. A lethal wound with JHP would be just as lethal if it were made with FMJ. It is the incapacitation time that is key. JHP's typically incapacitate targets faster. In simple terms, JHP's can stop a threat quicker. This is exactly what is needed in a pistol self-defense situation. In my opinion, JHP's and JSP's would make the most sense for MP, SOF and other units who do CQB-type activities as part of their normal duties. I would imagine that designated marksmen and the like would be able to benefit from the use of JSP hunting loads. Those are the people who are most likely going to need the advantages offered by expanding bullets. |
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Posted: 12/3/2007 7:19:21 PM EDT
[#50]
Torturing insurgents is bad press. Remember how bad the Abu Ghraib scandal was to our image around world? Whether you agree or disagree, you have to admit that the ramifications go far beyond the walls of the prison facility they are conducting their "interrogations". Also, recognizing torture as a valid tool in our toolbox is further demonizing our nation to the insurgency and giving them fodder for propaganda, which further swells their ranks with eager young men looking to appease the will of Allah. If we torture captured insurgents, and word gets out, a retaliation against ground forces will be probable. Israel has been through this a lot. They capture enemy soldiers, Hezbollah captures some of theirs. It's a copycat game. If we torture their fighters, they will do worse to ours on a wider scale. It's best to take the high road, even if your enemy does not. If we stoop to their tactics, then how can we say we are any better than them?
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