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Posted: 9/4/2005 12:35:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:37:14 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:39:48 PM EDT
Group Buy!
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:43:59 PM EDT

Outstanding! Is there a time frame for the transition?

Hopefully, this will lead to reduced .45ACP ammo prices!

Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:44:31 PM EDT
ABOUT DAMN TIME!!!
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:44:51 PM EDT
USP.45s for all !!!!
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:54:05 PM EDT
Whomever wins this will be able to make millions off of cvillian sales. You can bet this will be one hot competition to watch!
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:04:55 PM EDT
They want hi-capacity and double action. That counts out the 1911.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:05:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
They want hi-capacity and double action. That counts out the 1911.



Para Ordnance LDA?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:08:31 PM EDT
I can almost taste the "Surplus USP Magazines" already
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:09:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
They want hi-capacity and double action. That counts out the 1911.



Para Ordnance LDA?



I heard about this a while ago. The article said basically Glocks and 1911's were out.Although I think Para LDA would be a good choice.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:10:06 PM EDT
Funny. I was involved in the last bloody thread of 9mm vs .45. It was ugly.


BTW, .45 guy from way back when M16's had triangle hand guards and a military pistol was a 1911 period.

I'm in on the group buy.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:11:14 PM EDT
CZ97?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:11:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
They want hi-capacity and double action. That counts out the 1911.



Para Ordnance LDA?



Para Ord sucks. No way they would go with that.

A double stack 45 for a combat weapon is stupid. The pistol will be to large.

GO back to the 1911, because there are STILL parts in the military supply system for them stored away.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:13:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
CZ97?



Only 10 rds USP45 takes 12 and CZ97 has no rail. CZ97 is a great gun though, I would give it preference as well.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:14:10 PM EDT
That's good. The Colt .45 seems easier to handle to me. It's counter-intuitive but the weight actually made it easier to aim/shoot/aim/shoot.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:15:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:15:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 1:20:31 PM EDT by Tomislav]
How many Berettas did the USMC and Army just buy? Don't get too excited over the 'JSP' proposal just yet. It's gonna be a good long while before the M9 ever leaves the military.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:22:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
CZ97?



Only 10 rds USP45 takes 12 and CZ97 has no rail. CZ97 is a great gun though, I would give it preference as well.



Those aspects can be fixed. ;)

I've never shot/handled a CZ97, but I hear they are uber reliable and are tack drivers out of the box.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:25:38 PM EDT
Maybe something like a Sig 220?


-K
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:39:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Special-K:
Maybe something like a Sig 220?
-K



That seems reasonable.

At this moment, the P220 and the USP would be the top contenders in my mind for a DA .45 handgun, with the Glock 21 being an acceptable option, though I doubt the .mil will go for a gun with no manual safety.

But stranger things have been known to happen....
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:50:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 1:51:10 PM EDT by SO-COM]
Does Springfield make the XD in .45?
ETA: Looks like they make it in .45 GAP.. But not ACP
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 1:58:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 1:59:24 PM EDT by Dave_A]
First the XM8 and now this... Although on the bright side, the DA spec should prevent us from getting screwed with a Glock (which is, in actuality, a single-action pistol)...

I'd personally rather keep the 9mm -> better penetration, easier to shoot accurately, and more rounds per mag...

HOWEVER, if someone's gonna toss me a DA/SA .45ACP, make it the HK USP, simply because it's the only one of the major 'modern' pistols that (A) lets you carry cocked & locked (or decocked & locked, a-la the standard European style), and (B) has an external hammer...
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:01:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
First the XM8 and now this... Although on the bright side, the DA spec should prevent us from getting screwed with a Glock (which is, in actuality, a single-action pistol)...

I'd personally rather keep the 9mm -> better penetration, easier to shoot accurately, and more rounds per mag...

HOWEVER, if someone's gonna toss me a DA/SA .45ACP, make it the HK USP, simply because it's the only one of the major 'modern' pistols that (A) lets you carry cocked & locked (or decocked & locked, a-la the standard European style), and (B) has an external hammer...



In actuality, the Glock is a 1 and 2/3rds action pistol.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:04:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 2:05:18 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
Their specs have H&K USP written all over it. I agree with Dave_A though, I've owned several 1911's and stuck with the Beretta. It's a solid 9mm and fits my (embarrassed to say) small hands perfectly. Cant think of a reason they should dump it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:12:04 PM EDT
If you read the links, this is the first draft for comment by industry, so it's not going to be bought next month. Some of the requirements may change, but overall it will probably be pretty close to what you can read on the linked page.

8 round mag minimum, so alot of single stacks are eligible for this. It's not going to matter if a gun carries ten or 12, as long as it can carry eight, that block is checked. The gun also has to have a capability to take a 10 round mag without any snag problem.

There's no reason that most of the makers can't come up with viable candidates by the time the actual request really goes out. Remember the P226 didn't exist until Sig made it for the XM9 competition. This will benifit the shooter, even with guns that don't get bought, there will be some decent products come out of this.

Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:12:19 PM EDT
From the documents included in the link:



0.

3.4.Weapon controls.

3.4.1.Action: The JCP shall function in double action/single action (DA/SA) or double-action only (DAO) including Striker-Fired Action (SFA) (T). The JCP should have a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level without modification to the weapon’s major assemblies (O).

3.4.2.Trigger Pull: All DA/SA pistols shall have a consistent trigger pull of eight to ten [8-10] pounds on Double Action, and a consistent trigger pull of four to six [4-6] pounds on Single Action and all DAO pistols shall have a trigger pull of five to eight [5-8] pounds (T). All pistols shall have a trigger pull that is consistent within one [1] pound from average pull (T). When pressure is applied to the JCP trigger and then released, the trigger shall reset to its forward-most position, even if the pistol is not fired (T). The operator shall be capable of pulling the trigger, without shifting the firing grip as will be tested in section 3.6.3.

3.4.3.Magazine Release / Tactical Reload: The JCP shall allow the magazine, empty or with any number of rounds loaded, to drop free of the magazine well when the magazine release is activated (T). The magazine shall fall free when the pistol grip is held at any angle from 0 degrees vertical (normal firing attitude) to 45 degrees from vertical (T). The magazine shall also be capable of manual extraction when held at any other angle (T). The pistol shall be capable of firing with a chambered round and without a magazine in the magazine well (T). The pistol shall reliably fire when the pistol has a round in the chamber and a fully loaded magazine is inserted with the slide fully forward and the pistol is fired (T). The operator shall be capable of operating the magazine release with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of operating the magazine release without shifting the firing grip (O).

3.4.4.Ergonomic Enhancements: The JCP shall be operable for a range of operators from the 5th to 95th percentile per section 3.6.3. To aid in this, the JCP should incorporate a modular grip adjustment system to provide enhanced ergonomics (O).

3.4.5.Sights: The JCP sights shall provide rapid target acquisition and shall be optimized for snag-resistant rapid deployment (T). The JCP sights shall be replaceable at the organizational level (T). The JCP sights shall be drift-adjustable for windage (T). The JCP sights shall be self-illuminating for low light situations without ambient or external light source “charging” (T).

3.4.6.Safety:

3.4.6.1.DA/SA Pistols. The JCP in the DA/SA configuration shall have an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled (T). DA/SA pistols shall have a de-cocking lever that lowers the hammer from a cocked position and returns the pistol to DA mode when activated (T). The JCP design shall prevent the firing of a chambered cartridge when the hammer is cocked and the de-cocking lever is activated (T). The operator shall be capable of activating the de-cocking lever with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of activating the de-cocking lever without shifting the firing grip (O). If configured with external safety, the weapon shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.1.1.

3.4.6.1.1.DA/SA Pistols with External Safety. The JCP in DA/SA mode with an external manual safety shall meet all the requirements of 3.4.6.1 with the addition of: The external manual safety shall prevent firing when the manual safety is applied and the trigger is pulled (T). The operator shall be capable of activating the external manual safety with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of activating the external manual safety without shifting the firing grip (O).

3.4.6.2.DAO Pistols. The JCP in DAO shall have an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin/striker from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled (T). If configured with an external safety, the pistol shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.2.1.

3.4.6.2.1.DAO Pistols with External Safety. The JCP in DAO with an external safety shall meet the requirements of 3.4.6.2 with the addition of: The external safety shall prevent firing when applied and the trigger is pulled (T). When configured with an external safety, the operator shall be capable of activating and deactivating the external safety with the firing hand (T), and should be capable of activating and deactivating the external safety without shifting the firing grip (O).

3.4.6.3.General Safety. The JCP shall be capable of being produced either with or without an external manual safety (T). The weapon shall not create a hazard to the operator or others in close proximity during normal handling, transport, and use (T).

3.4.7.Slide Lock. The JCP shall incorporate a slide lock that will lock the slide to the rear after the firing and ejection of the last round from the magazine (T). The operator shall be capable of locking/unlocking the slide lock with the firing hand (T).



Modular action mechanism? Sounds like they are seriously talking about the USP here. Also:


0.

3.7.6.Weapon Shot Counter. The JCP should have a weapon shot counter to record shots fired (O). The shot counter, if provided, shall have a data collection device that connects the shot counter to a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall have a Microsoft compatible software program that works in conjunction with the shot counter and the data collection device to allow the weapon data to be downloaded and stored on a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall not interfere with any operations of the JCP.



WTF?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:20:29 PM EDT
They want a shot counter in a handgun???

Good grief...Somebody has been watching too much star trek.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:24:15 PM EDT
In the document, anything identified with an (O) is an objective (i.e. what they want) and (T) is threshold (i.e. what they need, no if's and's or but's).

So the gun doesn't need to have a modular action, but they'd like the capability. Same deal with the digital round counter. It's something they'd like to see, but not really something that needs to be on there.

It's the draft for industry comment, so if industry comes back and says that the digital round counter, or whatever can't be done, then the requirement may change or get dropped. I don't think you'll see any of the (T) requirements get looser, but the (O) ones are probably up for debate.

It's also not going to be black either. The color requriement is Dark Earth, Flat for the frame.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:28:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
Their specs have H&K USP written all over it. I agree with Dave_A though, I've owned several 1911's and stuck with the Beretta. It's a solid 9mm and fits my (embarrassed to say) small hands perfectly. Cant think of a reason they should dump it.



I can think of 45 reasons.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:28:47 PM EDT
I would like to get something off my chest. It is as follows:

Fuck the 1911 as a general issue service pistol.

The year is 2005.

The specs are for a double action capable pistol.

Quit hanging crap off a 1911 frame; quit completely re-engineering the mechanisms and still grouping it under the 1911 heading; quit trying to hump that dead moose back to life.

1911 and variants have a lot going for them - they're ubiquitous, parts are everywhere, the ergonomics match many people well, half the people in your gun club can go a trigger job on one, if you forgot to bring mags, everyone has a few stuck in the gun box, etc, etc, etc.

There are better general issue pistols for military service.

Let's move forward, without blind, cult like adoration for a past firearm.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:31:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ben70:
I would like to get something off my chest. It is as follows:

Fuck the 1911 as a general issue service pistol.

The year is 2005.

The specs are for a double action capable pistol.

Quit hanging crap off a 1911 frame; quit completely re-engineering the mechanisms and still grouping it under the 1911 heading; quit trying to hump that dead moose back to life.

1911 and variants have a lot going for them - they're ubiquitous, parts are everywhere, the ergonomics match many people well, half the people in your gun club can go a trigger job on one, if you forgot to bring mags, everyone has a few stuck in the gun box, etc, etc, etc.

There are better general issue pistols for military service.

Let's move forward, without blind, cult like adoration for a past firearm.



Yeah! Screw the internal combustion engine, too. Sure, they're uber-reliable, and time-proven, and ubiquitous, but this is 2005, Damnit, let's get a HYBRID engine in those HumVees!!! Time for something new and untested!!
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:33:42 PM EDT
Been, I will agree with you. The USP45 (which I believe will win this contract hands down) is a better military issue pistol than the 1911. The 1911 is still what I would prefer in a gunfight though.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:43:33 PM EDT
Miami - Please read what I wrote.

Actually...have two beers, wait 10 minutes....then read what I wrote.

I have a nice series 70 1911 I rescued from an idiot. That's where I get the extension of _70 on my nickname.

I like 45's.
Better pistols have come about since the 1911 was fielded in the US military.

Any US troops which should have a pistol should have one which suits their needs and the needs of the military. Currently, most soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who have [legit] pistols have an M9 or an M11. Both are DA/Sa 9x19mm with double column mags. The Beretta has a manual safety lever; the sig does not.

There are a variety of reasons why the US made the transitions with pistols that it has; they don't bear repeating in this thread.

There are better general issue guns out there. Let's find them and use them. Let's not be bound by tradition when we could get our troops the best weapons available.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:45:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Been, I will agree with you. The USP45 (which I believe will win this contract hands down) is a better military issue pistol than the 1911. The 1911 is still what I would prefer in a gunfight though.



I wouldn't say HK has it sewn in the bag. Like I said, it's early enough that many makers will be putting in competitors for this. The SW99 in .45ACP meets most of the objective requirments and all the threshold requirements, except color, and that's pretty easy to do. It has a much thinner grip too. The Army's already tested it in the work-up for this.

I'd be willing to bet HK doesn't even offer the USP, but a .45cal P2K.

I think this competition is going to be wide open personally.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:49:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 2:50:24 PM EDT by Hydguy]

Originally Posted By Ben70:
I would like to get something off my chest. It is as follows:

Fuck the 1911 as a general issue service pistol.I guss that Det 1 has no idea of what a combat pistol should be, do they?

The year is 2005.And that means that the 1911 is almost 100 years old and STILL IN USE, and there are still servicable pistols from the first run. Name me a gun from HK that has a trackrecord like that. Or Sig, or Beretta. No combat pistol has had the service lifespan of the 1911, and I don't think that another one ever will. Hell the M9 isn't even a 30 year old program yet.

The specs are for a double action capable pistol.The spec can be changed

Quit hanging crap off a 1911 frame; quit completely re-engineering the mechanisms and still grouping it under the 1911 heading; quit trying to hump that dead moose back to life.The only one here hu8mping a dead moose is you and your idiotic ASSertation that the 1911 is a dead platform. As I said above, Det-1 uses them to great effect, as do the MEU-SOC.

1911 and variants have a lot going for them - they're ubiquitous, parts are everywhere, the ergonomics match many people well, half the people in your gun club can go a trigger job on one, if you forgot to bring mags, everyone has a few stuck in the gun box, etc, etc, etc.

There are better general issue pistols for military service.Must not be if the military is already looking for ANOTHER service pistol, and in .45ACP no less....

Let's move forward, without blind, cult like adoration for a past firearm.Sorry, but I somehow think that the 1911 usere are far from a 'cult'. That is akin to calling gearheads who still build up 1000 hp motors from a Chevy big blocks, or 800 hp motors from a 350 block.



Sounds like 1911 envy to me.
Name me ONE firearm that had HALF the sefvice life of the 1911?
There is a reason that it lasted so long, and it is because it is the best tool for the job.
You don't want a gun that has to have 2-3 actions to make it fire.
The 1911 thumb safety is probably the MOST natural safty location and operation.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:55:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ben70:
Let's move forward, without blind, cult like adoration for a past firearm.



Perhaps we will when Europe quits giving us crappy triggers.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:56:12 PM EDT
What stands out to me is that they are no longer requiring double strike capability which is what bounced Glock before. The Glock 21 is modular , striker fired with a mag cap over 10 rds. Put night sights and a threaded barrel and its in the game.

As I stated before in another area HK is very well situated as well as they are already making a pistol on those specs namely the USP variants.

However from my converstations with Sigarms they are in the process of building a .45 acp for their Sigpro line which would also met the stated requirements.

S&W will be intrucing a .45 acp version of their brand new M&P model sometime mid 06 which may be too late. However if they can get it in it will be competative especially as they are american owned.

At this point with the posted requirement for modularity I only see Glock , HK and Sig (if they get their 45 up in time).

It will interesting to see how this unfolds
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:56:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
I'd personally rather keep the 9mm -> easier to shoot accurately



Maybe for you, but I personally shoot the .45 better.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:58:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By Ben70:
I would like to get something off my chest. It is as follows:

Fuck the 1911 as a general issue service pistol.I guss that Det 1 has no idea of what a combat pistol should be, do they?

The year is 2005.And that means that the 1911 is almost 100 years old and STILL IN USE, and there are still servicable pistols from the first run. Name me a gun from HK that has a trackrecord like that. Or Sig, or Beretta. No combat pistol has had the service lifespan of the 1911, and I don't think that another one ever will. Hell the M9 isn't even a 30 year old program yet.

The specs are for a double action capable pistol.The spec can be changed

Quit hanging crap off a 1911 frame; quit completely re-engineering the mechanisms and still grouping it under the 1911 heading; quit trying to hump that dead moose back to life.The only one here hu8mping a dead moose is you and your idiotic ASSertation that the 1911 is a dead platform. As I said above, Det-1 uses them to great effect, as do the MEU-SOC.

1911 and variants have a lot going for them - they're ubiquitous, parts are everywhere, the ergonomics match many people well, half the people in your gun club can go a trigger job on one, if you forgot to bring mags, everyone has a few stuck in the gun box, etc, etc, etc.

There are better general issue pistols for military service.Must not be if the military is already looking for ANOTHER service pistol, and in .45ACP no less....

Let's move forward, without blind, cult like adoration for a past firearm.Sorry, but I somehow think that the 1911 usere are far from a 'cult'. That is akin to calling gearheads who still build up 1000 hp motors from a Chevy big blocks, or 800 hp motors from a 350 block.



Sounds like 1911 envy to me.
Name me ONE firearm that had HALF the sefvice life of the 1911?
There is a reason that it lasted so long, and it is because it is the best tool for the job.
You don't want a gun that has to have 2-3 actions to make it fire.
The 1911 thumb safety is probably the MOST natural safty location and operation.



+ Fucking 1
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:58:53 PM EDT
tag

Just skimming the requirements leads me to belive Glock, HK, and Sig are all up for this one.

If it is truly going to be a Joint Combat Pistol and not one just for special forces then I can see where commanders that keep their troops in condition one would want a DA capability, just like so many police departments do.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 2:59:58 PM EDT

3.7.6. Weapon Shot Counter. The JCP should have a weapon shot counter to record shots fired (O). The shot counter, if provided, shall have a data collection device that connects the shot counter to a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall have a Microsoft compatible software program that works in conjunction with the shot counter and the data collection device to allow the weapon data to be downloaded and stored on a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall not interfere with any operations of the JCP.


Think they are trying to get a handle on who is hogging the ammo?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:01:50 PM EDT



3.7.6.Weapon Shot Counter. The JCP should have a weapon shot counter to record shots fired (O). The shot counter, if provided, shall have a data collection device that connects the shot counter to a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall have a Microsoft compatible software program that works in conjunction with the shot counter and the data collection device to allow the weapon data to be downloaded and stored on a computer. The shot counter, if provided, shall not interfere with any operations of the JCP.




How would this work? Maybe some sort of chamber pressure sensor to differentiate real fire from dry fire?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:02:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Been, I will agree with you. The USP45 (which I believe will win this contract hands down) is a better military issue pistol than the 1911. The 1911 is still what I would prefer in a gunfight though.



I wouldn't say HK has it sewn in the bag. Like I said, it's early enough that many makers will be putting in competitors for this. The SW99 in .45ACP meets most of the objective requirments and all the threshold requirements, except color, and that's pretty easy to do. It has a much thinner grip too. The Army's already tested it in the work-up for this.

I'd be willing to bet HK doesn't even offer the USP, but a .45cal P2K.

I think this competition is going to be wide open personally.



HK has enough Army ordnance officers and Generals at the Pentagon on its payroll....
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:06:04 PM EDT
The Beretta 96F in 40 cal seems to me to make more sense than a 45acp.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:06:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 3:07:54 PM EDT by ColtM4]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Ross:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Been, I will agree with you. The USP45 (which I believe will win this contract hands down) is a better military issue pistol than the 1911. The 1911 is still what I would prefer in a gunfight though.



I wouldn't say HK has it sewn in the bag. Like I said, it's early enough that many makers will be putting in competitors for this. The SW99 in .45ACP meets most of the objective requirments and all the threshold requirements, except color, and that's pretty easy to do. It has a much thinner grip too. The Army's already tested it in the work-up for this.

I'd be willing to bet HK doesn't even offer the USP, but a .45cal P2K.

I think this competition is going to be wide open personally.




HK has enough Army ordnance officers and Generals at the Pentagon on its payroll....



My understanding is S&W will no longer pursue the SW99 to focus soley on the new M&P but hey one never knows if the time starts to run out...

ETA : right on the HK is very well supported in the Pentagon
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:07:33 PM EDT
God has a hardon for Marines. Why? Because some of them carry
<--------------------------------------------------------------

Nuff said.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:08:02 PM EDT


I went to some effort to state 'general issue' pistol repeatedly. I know that the irregulars have leeway when it comes to firearms and gear. Comments not directed towards them. The overwhelming majority of boots on the ground don't have pistols. The overwhelming number of boots on ground with pistols aren't DET-1. Clear?

Having looked at these specs....how concrete is this? It just looks like a wishlist, a preliminary spec sheet for the gun that meets their [perceived] needs.

Also - Hyd, I thought we agreed you'd stop trolling.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:08:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
That's good. The Colt .45 seems easier to handle to me. It's counter-intuitive but the weight actually made it easier to aim/shoot/aim/shoot.



Right on! And if they go back to black powder and add an infrared sight to see thru the fog of war we would rule the day.

Let's see, they went from .45 Colt to .38 back to .45ACP to 9mm and now back to .45ACP. Getting a little woozy here. I wish they would show a little imagination and choose 10mm. Then all we 10mm range brass vultures could catch a break.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:10:30 PM EDT
Personally I am stupified by the constant assertion that the 1911 isn't a good general issue weapon. Made properly they are reliable, easy to shoot, and their single stack design makes them a wonderful fit in very small and very large hands. I have yet to meet a shooter that can't handle a 1911 well with a little training.

They aren't the easiest guns in the world to disassemble, but they aren't any more complicated than the M-16, and everyone has to know how to break one of those down to clean it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:14:03 PM EDT
Most troops in the military have next to none in the way of pistol training. Most senior Officers actually believe qualification, being an adequate level of training for deployment,

When I was a CO I had to actually request ammo for qualification in order to get a couple of hundred rounds of 9mm for each of my pistol bearers to do training with. I am a firm believer the average Solider, Sailor, Airman or Marine doesn't have the training to employ a pistol and no matter what you give them, you will have allot of misses leading to reports of weapons failures to stop.
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