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Posted: 12/14/2013 4:20:31 AM EST
Someone in my unit got a DUI last night now the whole company has to come in and do 4 hours of alcohol awareness classes. I can't for the life of me understand how this punishment works. After 5 years any many recalls DUIs still happen. It's almost like banning firearms, people will still get them even though they are against the law. Can some higher up elaborate on how the form of punishment is effective?
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:23:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 4:24:33 AM EST by FDC]
For DUIS, it's not effective, but is often forced on a unit from higher level commands.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:24:03 AM EST
It's not really thought of as punishment. Bad things happened, train everyone so bad things do not happen again.

It's silly, but that's the thought process.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:24:15 AM EST
It's not effective. It just makes it look like somebody is doing something about it so they dont get an ass chewing too.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:25:33 AM EST
If it made sense, it wouldn't be happening in the army.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:26:32 AM EST
I think the thought process is if enough of you get tired of the bullshit, you will eventually do a better job of looking out for your troops. The finer points of which can be debated to no end. We all know that a fuck up is going to fuck up no matter what but maybe that fuck up will think twice before fuckin up everyone else's liberty.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:26:40 AM EST
Why did you fail your buddy?






LOL

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:27:10 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Booze:
It's not effective. It just makes it look like somebody is doing something about it so they dont get an ass chewing too.
View Quote


It's all about pubic perception.

General Principles: "Here's a picture of GIs taking a class on why DUI isn't a good idea."

General Public: "Ooooh. That's wonderful! Now we're safer!"
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:27:35 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Josh:
It's not really thought of as punishment. Bad things happened, train everyone so bad things do not happen again.

It's silly, but that's the thought process.
View Quote


This
If it was punishment, then you would be running or peeling taters, or whatever

It feels like punishment, because you figured out that a DUI is a bad thing already
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:31:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By proheromk1:
I think the thought process is if enough of you get tired of the bullshit, you will eventually do a better job of looking out for your troops. The finer points of which can be debated to no end. We all know that a fuck up is going to fuck up no matter what but maybe that fuck up will think twice before fuckin up everyone else's liberty.
View Quote
This...

Isn't this the part where all of you hold him down in the middle of the night and beat the shit out of him with bar soap in your tube socks?
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:38:09 AM EST
Here is another shitty example of this.

Someone in Ops sqd gets dui. Entire Ops group recalled at 0600. The dui squadron reports in service dress.

Many people are drunk and need to find a ride.

Stand around for 4 hours getting yelled at.

Dui squadron has to do a PT test. Wing CC tells squadron if anyone fail, their sqd CC will be fired due to a failure of leadership.

Never mind offending squadron had a dui briefing the day before. Of course it's a Lt Col's fault a SrA makes a stupid decision at 0300.

Now let's make it miserable for 500 people.

That wing CC was a fuck stain.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:39:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EvilBlackDog:
This...

Isn't this the part where all of you hold him down in the middle of the night and beat the shit out of him with bar soap in your tube socks?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EvilBlackDog:
Originally Posted By proheromk1:
I think the thought process is if enough of you get tired of the bullshit, you will eventually do a better job of looking out for your troops. The finer points of which can be debated to no end. We all know that a fuck up is going to fuck up no matter what but maybe that fuck up will think twice before fuckin up everyone else's liberty.
This...

Isn't this the part where all of you hold him down in the middle of the night and beat the shit out of him with bar soap in your tube socks?


This - I saw it in this movie once... Didn't end optimally.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:42:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 4:44:20 AM EST by primuspilum]
Originally Posted By Mvizzle:
Someone in my unit got a DUI last night now the whole company has to come in and do 4 hours of alcohol awareness classes. I can't for the life of me understand how this punishment works. After 5 years any many recalls DUIs still happen. It's almost like banning firearms, people will still get them even though they are against the law. Can some higher up elaborate on how the form of punishment is effective?
View Quote


It isn't to "punish" per se. It's two things: 1. CYA for the commander and 2. unofficially, to establish peer pressure so the troops police themselves.

If you get a DUI in the .mil, you are a complete alchy or a raging dumbass. Either way, you got to go.

ETA; not defending group punishment. It's real retarded, sir.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:42:59 AM EST
You know what works better? Having a recall formation at 0330 so the company can watch the assclown running from the MP station still drunk with his squad leader in front with his flashers on and the First Sergeant bringing up the rear with his flashers on. Then he proceeds to get the worst smoking of his life from the Bn CSM the whole while the CSM yells at everybody else to know that if they fuck up they will get it worse. That lets you know that you neeeeever want to get a DUI! BTW for those that have never been to FT Riley....... that run from the MP station up Custer hill is a mother fucker
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:49:28 AM EST
it forces you to blanket party the guy later

it all works out
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 4:53:23 AM EST
"0 days since the last alcohol related incident"
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:07:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 5:07:44 AM EST by garyd]
It is stupid and a waste of time. but it all comes down to making it look like someone is doing something

back in 95 when PVT Burmeister and Pvt Wright, murdered Michel James and Jackie Burden, because they were black. We had to go thru hours of "racial sensitivity" training. It was stupid. Had to sit thru lectures and fill out forms and questionnaires, with such inquiring questions like"

"have you ever been referred to by a derogatory racial name? (cracker.honky, whitey)"

I asked my platoon sergeant if my wife (who is black) counted, since she did say something the other day about stupid whitey. I was told to shut up and fill out the questions.

at least 2 guys in my Battalion were kicked out because they had some kind of loose connection with skinheads, and the rest of us were guilty, because we were white. Supposedly there was an epidemic of racist in the US Army at the time, because of 2 idiots.

Burmeister and Wright were idiot murders. but somehow it became a leadership problem and everyone needed to be educated.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:09:06 AM EST
I also remember the o dark 30 alerts while on DRF 1 just to bust the guys drinking. I did not drink, but it did not matter, I still had to be there.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:10:41 AM EST
It's not punishment.

It's your chain of command covering their asses.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:13:07 AM EST
Not like it's new or anything. We had a formal funeral for a fly some guy swatted, while we were in formation - in 1966.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:13:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By nick89302:
Why did you fail your buddy?






LOL

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:15:08 AM EST
In the New Military you should never leave your buddies behind, especially if he is drunk.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:16:29 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FDC:
For DUIS, it's not effective, but is often forced on a unit from higher level commands.
View Quote


it's the coward's way of supervising.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:18:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:18:22 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Got_Nukes:
Here is another shitty example of this.

Someone in Ops sqd gets dui. Entire Ops group recalled at 0600. The dui squadron reports in service dress.

Many people are drunk and need to find a ride.

Stand around for 4 hours getting yelled at.

Dui squadron has to do a PT test. Wing CC tells squadron if anyone fail, their sqd CC will be fired due to a failure of leadership.

Never mind offending squadron had a dui briefing the day before. Of course it's a Lt Col's fault a SrA makes a stupid decision at 0300.

Now let's make it miserable for 500 people.

That wing CC was a fuck stain.
View Quote


And this is why good people leave.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:20:14 AM EST
My have things changed. When I was in the Navy it was permissible for E5 and above to have a coupola beers with lunch and return to duty provided you were not falling down.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:20:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveE111:
Not like it's new or anything. We had a formal funeral for a fly some guy swatted, while we were in formation - in 1966.
View Quote


I know doing that sucked, but that is funny as hell.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:26:48 AM EST
have fun with the OT




oh, wait.....
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:28:14 AM EST
Yeah, I never cared for that way of thinking through my whole career. I didn't drink, myself, and rarely went out with the guys who did, and made sure everyone who I supervised knew that if they got a DUI I'd recommend immediate and painful expulsion from the AF, so I was hardly the target audience for that crap.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:29:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DamascusKnifemaker:
My have things changed. When I was in the Navy it was permissible for E5 and above to have a coupola beers with lunch and return to duty provided you were not falling down.
View Quote
Every FS I was ever in had a bar at Ops for the pilots, and I guarandamntee you that better than half of them were drunk driving home on Friday.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:33:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
"0 days since the last alcohol related incident"
View Quote

We have a sign in our squadron counting down from 36 because apparently that's the record for the longest time without a ARI. We are 13 days in and I can already sense it won't last over the weekend.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:34:30 AM EST
Same reason politicians ban guns after a shooting....so it looks like they are doing something, anything to stop the madness.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:38:21 AM EST
We quit doing mass punishment in our Company

Its not effective, shitheads will be shitheads

If a soldier gets a DUI his COC comes in does the SIR and storyboard and counseling

Then the guy that got the DUI is restricted to base until the next duty day where we start his chapter paperwork

Free
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:39:30 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
We quit doing mass punishment in our Company

Its not effective, shitheads will be shitheads

If a soldier gets a DUI his COC comes in does the SIR and storyboard and counseling

Then the guy that got the DUI is restricted to base until the next duty day where we start his chapter paperwork

Free
View Quote


I love it
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:40:37 AM EST
The old school theory was that NCOs can't beat the fuck out of privates.
But other privates can.

Mass punishment was sorta "pay it forward"

If you knew by fucking up you were going to get your ass beat and badly, well, that was effective deterrence.

Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:41:53 AM EST
One of my old BC's did that a few times. He said if you drank more then one beer a week that you were an alcoholic lol.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:44:13 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
We quit doing mass punishment in our Company

Its not effective, shitheads will be shitheads

If a soldier gets a DUI his COC comes in does the SIR and storyboard and counseling

Then the guy that got the DUI is restricted to base until the next duty day where we start his chapter paperwork

Free
View Quote


That sounds like a good approach. Is the policy zero tolerance and chapter for first time DUI or is each soldier considered on the merits of their performance before chapter paperwork is initiated?
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:44:21 AM EST
lol.

it's a reflection of your leadership.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:44:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:44:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 5:45:01 AM EST by DK-Prof]
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:46:11 AM EST
Alcohol=Weak Mind
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:46:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 5:47:56 AM EST by CJ7365]
Originally Posted By Mvizzle:
Someone in my unit got a DUI last night now the whole company has to come in and do 4 hours of alcohol awareness classes. I can't for the life of me understand how this punishment works. After 5 years any many recalls DUIs still happen. It's almost like banning firearms, people will still get them even though they are against the law. Can some higher up elaborate on how the form of punishment is effective?
View Quote



It was like this when I was in and I retired almost 10 years ago

Some how the upper echelon fucks think that you can control people by preaching and training them to death, and after that holding the leaders responsible for someone fucking up.

I never did this, the individual need to accept responsibility for their actions, and you deal with this individual only.

DWI kick them the fuck out
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:49:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mvizzle:
Someone in my unit got a DUI last night now the whole company has to come in and do 4 hours of alcohol awareness classes. I can't for the life of me understand how this punishment works. After 5 years any many recalls DUIs still happen. It's almost like banning firearms, people will still get them even though they are against the law. Can some higher up elaborate on how the form of punishment is effective?
View Quote


so you get to sit on your ass for 4 hours? beats open ranks
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:51:47 AM EST
Its still up to the COC, but chapter paperwork is initiated on day one

We have a SSG with 17 yrs in that fighting to stay in over a DUI

Free


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OIF_Vet08-09:


That sounds like a good approach. Is the policy zero tolerance and chapter for first time DUI or is each soldier considered on the merits of their performance before chapter paperwork is initiated?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OIF_Vet08-09:
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
We quit doing mass punishment in our Company

Its not effective, shitheads will be shitheads

If a soldier gets a DUI his COC comes in does the SIR and storyboard and counseling

Then the guy that got the DUI is restricted to base until the next duty day where we start his chapter paperwork

Free


That sounds like a good approach. Is the policy zero tolerance and chapter for first time DUI or is each soldier considered on the merits of their performance before chapter paperwork is initiated?

Link Posted: 12/14/2013 5:55:37 AM EST
Yeah, I remember your thread about that SSG.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Its still up to the COC, but chapter paperwork is initiated on day one

We have a SSG with 17 yrs in that fighting to stay in over a DUI

Free



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Its still up to the COC, but chapter paperwork is initiated on day one

We have a SSG with 17 yrs in that fighting to stay in over a DUI

Free


Originally Posted By OIF_Vet08-09:
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
We quit doing mass punishment in our Company

Its not effective, shitheads will be shitheads

If a soldier gets a DUI his COC comes in does the SIR and storyboard and counseling

Then the guy that got the DUI is restricted to base until the next duty day where we start his chapter paperwork

Free


That sounds like a good approach. Is the policy zero tolerance and chapter for first time DUI or is each soldier considered on the merits of their performance before chapter paperwork is initiated?


Link Posted: 12/14/2013 6:00:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
We quit doing mass punishment in our Company

Its not effective, shitheads will be shitheads

If a soldier gets a DUI his COC comes in does the SIR and storyboard and counseling

Then the guy that got the DUI is restricted to base until the next duty day where we start his chapter paperwork

Free
View Quote



You gotta be fuckin' shittin' me!

Someone ought to get thrown out on their ass for that one!

Who in the name of Sam Hill ever thought of holding the INDIVIDUAL responsible? That's a good one!!!

Common sense in the United States Army?

You don't say!
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 6:12:28 AM EST
Think of the most logical, reasonable, time and cost effective solution to a problem. The Army will do the opposite.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 6:17:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 6:31:38 AM EST by FeuerStolz]
While in Korea, I once had the opportunity to watch a ROK CSM Inspect his Bn, I was far away from US Eyes & had been giving a 2hr class to kidz about English pronunciation, yes I got paid for it & it was drinking money. So the school was next to a ROK Mil Base & was maybe 10 m higher in elevation, so I had a clear view looking over the compound, He laid out 3-4, 7-8 got backup & at attention, another 12 or so he whacked with a cane, I guessing an un buttoned pocket or something trivial, it was clear to me why Korean parents with money & influence had their kidz as KATUSA.

I remember in Vietnam, 22 Oct 72 they signed some agreement in Paris, & as the South was full of NVA units all were allowed to stay in place (which they didn't) some NVA set off a charge next to a ROK base or lobed a couple motars rounds into their compound, don't remember which, but they went out & captured the NVA commander that was responsible, cut his skin off & tied him to a pole in the neighboring village, before the morning sun arose. I've always had great respect for the ROK soldiers, as they played by the rulz of War not politics.



ETA: Oh so the moron of the story is, don't bitch about a DUI Class, unless you'd rather have the CSM Beat the life outta you, while you stand at attention.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 6:21:39 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Josh:
It's not really thought of as punishment. Bad things happened, train everyone so bad things do not happen again.

It's silly, but that's the thought process.
View Quote


This.

The last time I got caught up in one of these weekend clusterfucks the DUI offender was a damn CMSgt.

WTF Chief??
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 6:27:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2013 6:42:16 AM EST by Fullautoguy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By garyd:
It is stupid and a waste of time. but it all comes down to making it look like someone is doing something

back in 95 when PVT Burmeister and Pvt Wright, murdered Michel James and Jackie Burden, because they were black. We had to go thru hours of "racial sensitivity" training. It was stupid. Had to sit thru lectures and fill out forms and questionnaires, with such inquiring questions like"

"have you ever been referred to by a derogatory racial name? (cracker.honky, whitey)"

I asked my platoon sergeant if my wife (who is black) counted, since she did say something the other day about stupid whitey. I was told to shut up and fill out the questions.

at least 2 guys in my Battalion were kicked out because they had some kind of loose connection with skinheads, and the rest of us were guilty, because we were white. Supposedly there was an epidemic of racist in the US Army at the time, because of 2 idiots.

Burmeister and Wright were idiot murders. but somehow it became a leadership problem and everyone needed to be educated.
View Quote


I knew both those guys, burmeister and some little fat guy were in my company and the others were in the hhc 81 mortar team. Burmeister seemed actually like a pretty nice guy and I never suspected he was capable of this, even though he was just the guy behind the wheel.

Edit I was wrong. Meadows was the guy in my company and burmeister was a hhc guy. Yeah they were a bunch of nazi wannabe douche bags, the fat little one I mentioned purposely always messed with this black kid from hope mills (right outside of Bragg) he constantly picked fist fights with him, not that the kid from hope mills was a rocket surgeon he didn't deserve the bs thrown at him.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 6:28:33 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Yep - that's the underlying logic we used. The Brits did it too, IIRC.

It seemed to work. I got rid of a malingerer in my platoon that way - the other guys tormented him so much he eventually had a breakdown and got a psychiatric discharge.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
The old school theory was that NCOs can't beat the fuck out of privates.
But other privates can.

Mass punishment was sorta "pay it forward"

If you knew by fucking up you were going to get your ass beat and badly, well, that was effective deterrence.



Yep - that's the underlying logic we used. The Brits did it too, IIRC.

It seemed to work. I got rid of a malingerer in my platoon that way - the other guys tormented him so much he eventually had a breakdown and got a psychiatric discharge.


In disgrace he had to flee Denmark and live as a gigolo spending all day on the internet.
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