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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/6/2002 8:15:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2002 8:16:48 PM EDT by Vinnie]
If I were to convert an AR with one of the millitary .22 conversions which only have 10 round mags, put a ZM folding stuck which removes the buffer tub (making it impossible to shoot 5.56 without replacing the buffer tube), remove the gas tube (also rendering the change back useless), Would this be legal? It's a semi auto but can only accept low cap mags hence the rest (folding stock, threaded barrel/flash supressor, bayo lug) shouldn't apply.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 12:34:05 AM EDT
No, not legal. Federal law prohibits manufacturing (without markings) and possession (other than LE/gov't) of a semi automatic rifle with the ability to accept a detchable magazine and more than one of: 1) pistol grip - most ARs have his 2) grenade launcher 3) telescoping/collapsible stock 3) bayonet lug 4) flash suppressor or threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash suppressor Caliber is irrelevant to the 94 AW ban - only semi auto with ability to accept a detachable magazine and a pistol grip. Caliban law exempts .22 rimfire, but not federal law. As for the military conversions only being able to accept a detachable magazine of 10 or fewer rounds, ATF figures anything which could accept a detachable magazine is capable of accepting a magazine of more than 10 rounds, unless you get a written opinion from them to the contrary.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 12:38:26 PM EDT
But the Military conversions don't make/have any high cap mags. That's what got me thinking about this. Just like it would be possible to have a threaded barrel if it were only made for a compensator and there were no Flash Supressors that could fit the threads.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 4:01:06 PM EDT
Circuits is right about the law specifically stating that caliber is irrelevant. The biggest problem I see is that if you are talking about a postban lower, it can never have the banned items over the allowed limit for postban AR's. You are not making a permanent change to the lower anyway, with the .22 conversion kit. It will still be a .223 AR lower. State laws will also come into play here.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 7:41:26 PM EDT
OK I see you're point about the lower. I wasn't talking about the .22 Calibre, but of the fact that there are no military conversion hicaps which is the only loophole I saw in the law; "the ability to accept a detatchable high capacity magazine." Since there are no high capacity magazines available for the Military conversions, I thought that may be a loop hole. Anyways, you saved me 175 in the Equipment Exchange.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 8:24:09 PM EDT
Vinnie - the law doesn't make the ability to accept a detachable [i]high-capacity[/i] mag a determining feature; its the ability to accept [b]any[/b] detachable mag, regardless of its capacity.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 8:28:45 PM EDT
then would it be legal for me to put a folding stock, pistol grip, and flash suppressor on my ruger 10/22? All are sold through cabela's Keving67
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 8:32:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By keving67: then would it be legal for me to put a folding stock, pistol grip, and flash suppressor on my ruger 10/22? All are sold through cabela's Keving67
View Quote
Nope - not unless it was configured that way before 9/13/94. However, since a 10/22 doesn't have ANY evil features as sold, you can add ONE evil feature - a pistol grip OR a flash suppressor, OR a folding stock (but not a folding stock with pistol grip).
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:06:09 PM EDT
If you'd like to have every evil feature you've ever desired, try this. Buy/make an el'cheapo AR15 lower and "permanently" modify it so it has a "fixed" magazine. Or you could block off the magazine well so it could never accept a clip, and load it 1 at a time. Whala, now its exempt from the AW ban. Here's a question... If you "permanently" block off the gas tube, so it wont eject, and using the charging handle for every round (hence single shot, not semi) would that make it exempt? Or is it the lower only that defines the guns capability?
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:38:02 PM EDT
Vinnie, While the law DOES exempt semi-automatic rifles that do not take high capacity magazines, the cap is NOT ten rounds, it is five. See 18 USC 922(v)(3)(C) which reads: [Paragraph (1) shall not apply to] any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 10:31:24 PM EDT
Ah ok, well that settles it. Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 10:30:19 AM EDT
Caliber is irrelevant to 922(v). But, it is relevant to 922(w). It is legal to make Hi-Capacity .22 Tubular Magazines for Civie Use. I.E. You can still make Rifles with Tubes that contain more than 10 Rounds of Ammo. Now, the Magazine is important for several reasons: 1) A Gun that a magazine over 5 Rounds does not exist for cannot be an AW. But, should anyone ever make a mag. over 5 Rounds for it you are in trouble. Sort of like DDs. Since Japaneese Knee Mortar Ammo. existed, they are DDs even though the ammo. no longer exists at all. 2) Any gun with a fixed magazine cannot be an AW. 3) There is a contradiction in the Shotgun Section. The provisions of the Chapter say that any gun which cannot take a Det. Mag. of 5 Rounds or more is not an AW. But, one of the evil features on a Shotgun is a fixed mag. capacity. So, does the evil feature trump the exception ? No it doesn't. Exception trumps evil feature. A Detachable Magazine regardless of Capcity is an evil feature on a shotgun. Yet, w/o a 5+ Round Magazine existing or having existed it cannot be an AW. Now, in order to try the 5 Round issue you would need to practically make your own mags. This can be done. If I can do it, I would like to take an AR-15 0% Forging and make a rifle that will only take specially deisgned Single Stack Mags. This way, it will look and feel like the real thing, but as long as none of those mags. is over 5 Rounds it could have all the evil features you want.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 10:21:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 6:22:45 PM EDT
The tougher approach... I dunno how doable it would be... But, What about a gogogadgets lower, Or a lower with a cheap USA Mag welded in, and A tube fed upper, If this is possible? I am still working on my first AR, only have the lower as of now, So I don't really have a clue of the inner workings of an upper... Just a thought. -Jared
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 7:08:21 PM EDT
ok guys, I was just talking about using the ZM folding stock with a .22 designated upper, based on the fact that the Military conversions only have and use 10 round magazinzes. Not because it was a .22 per say, just that it only has and only uses 10 round magazines, that I thought were considered low capacity. I was not trying to redesign an AR into something that that would be legal in the Repvblik of Kalifornia. Someone was selling a ZM folding stock which doesn't use a buffer tube and would be perfect with blow back type systems. I know you can use Uzi and other type of high caps in 9mm conversions, so that was out.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 7:31:25 PM EDT
Actually, a tube magazine for an AR could be done. But, if you use .223, it would have to hold 10 Rounds or less. But, if you use a tube fed AR in .22 Rimfire, then you could make a brand new tube in whatever capacity you wish as there is a specific exemption in 922(w) for .22 Rimfire Tubes. I'll have to get to work designing a tube feed. I did design a kit to make your magazine non-detachable, while still looking like the real thing. Does anybody know the specific procedure to obtain ATF Approval for something ?
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 7:55:37 PM EDT
Submit detailed drawings and descriptions to the ATF tech branch, asking for a determination as to whether the weapon is or is not subject to the restrictions of 922(v). You can include a sample receiver, as well, or wait to see if they ask for a sample; sometimes they can do the determination from drawings and descriptions alone. You can find ATF Tech Branch contact info from the ATF website, or by calling them (number on the website) and asking how to submit a design for evaluation.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 9:44:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cc48510: Now, the Magazine is important for several reasons: 1) A Gun that a magazine over 5 Rounds does not exist for cannot be an AW. But, should anyone ever make a mag. over 5 Rounds for it you are in trouble. Sort of like DDs. Since Japaneese Knee Mortar Ammo. existed, they are DDs even though the ammo. no longer exists at all. 3) There is a contradiction in the Shotgun Section. The provisions of the Chapter say that any gun which cannot take a Det. Mag. of 5 Rounds or more is not an AW. But, one of the evil features on a Shotgun is a fixed mag. capacity. So, does the evil feature trump the exception ? No it doesn't. Exception trumps evil feature. A Detachable Magazine regardless of Capcity is an evil feature on a shotgun. Yet, w/o a 5+ Round Magazine existing or having existed it cannot be an AW. Now, in order to try the 5 Round issue you would need to practically make your own mags. This can be done. If I can do it, I would like to take an AR-15 0% Forging and make a rifle that will only take specially deisgned Single Stack Mags. This way, it will look and feel like the real thing, but as long as none of those mags. is over 5 Rounds it could have all the evil features you want.
View Quote
Actually, the presence of the ability to accept [i]any[/i] detachable mag, regardles of capacity, and two or more features makes it an "assault rifle" by definition. However, if it cannot accept a mag of over 5rd capacity, then that assault rifle is exempted from the provisions of 922(v); its still an assault rifle, though new manufacture or possession is exempt from criminal liability.
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