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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/23/2005 9:51:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 3:58:23 PM EDT by Tate]
Security will be provided by a church - medical services are back in full swing in the area. Thanks much to all of you who had great ideas and to those of you who wanted to help!


This is only a **tentative** proposal, ladies and gents.

If it is determined that there will be a lack of base camp security for our company's deployment to central Mississippi, the owner of the company I work for will be looking for solutions.

I informed him that I could most likely gather a half dozen people from this board, to form an informal security detail for our campsite.

I told him I could almost guarantee trustworthiness, especially of long time members of arfcom who have numerous references from other arfcommers. I also told him that I could absolutely guarantee the legality of these potential employees being able to CCW in Mississippi.

These would be very low keyed, non-uniformed positions. CCW in Miss or a state that has a reciprocity agreement with Miss, sleeved shirts, long pants, and perhaps work boots would be the only requirements. Oh - and a willingness to sit, stand, walk around in a hot, humid environment for at least eight weeks.

People with no CCW **might** be permitted to fill these positions, but the would not be able to carry.

The pay would be good, but will not be what a crewman for our blue tarp roofing contract is. No specific pay or hours have been set. The hours that will absolutey have to be covered are 0700-1900 seven days a week. You would be camping with us in a tent, camper, or motorhome at our base camp. Tansportation, lodging, food, ect will be the responsibility of the employees. If you could fill the position otherwise, but are *really* hurting on cash, we could in all likelyhood provide food and drink for the duration.

Here's a thread re: our disaster recovery mission: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=391690&page=1

Reply to this thread, IM me, or email me at AR15FAN@AIRMAIL.NET if you are interested or have any questions. I would also be VERY interested in any comments or advice from the arfcom hive mind.

Would love input from any Mississippi LEOs too.

Thanks,

Tate
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:04:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 10:05:11 AM EDT by Ineedhelp]
Why couldn't those that do not have a Miss. CCW carry open?


ETA: Nothing says "Leave the blue tarp boys alone" like a squad with AR's strapped to their back!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:10:39 AM EDT
fwiw, open carry is 100% legal, but depending on the cops in a particular area it could be good or bad (i.e. anywhere near Jackson would be bad, but nearer to the coast, you'd be ok).
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:45:59 AM EDT
^^^
Ineedhelp, david_g17 - great information - I thank you both.

Just to let y'all know that the hive mind is working:

The biggest question of all, asked via email - posted with permission:
***********
I don't have a ton of posts on the board but have been a member for some time.

I am former Air Force currently working in the Banking industry. I previously owned and operated an armed security company in Texas. We Specialized in special event security and couriers. I am a curent CCW holder.

I would be concerned about Mississsippi laws concerning private security. Being familiar we Texas law, it is very strict concerning use of private security. My other concern would be the availability of Food/Water of if it would have to be bought in from outside the area and lodging (hotel, camper, or tent).

Thanks for your time.

John
************
I understand fully your concerns, John. I am hoping that Miss would allow the rules to be bent during the recovery period. I know for sure that Louisiana DOT has allowed the bending of the restrictions on carrying more than 100 gallons of hazardous material (gasoline) on their roadways due to the need for recovery efforts after Katrina. I was hoping for some Miss LEOs to contact me re: this issue. I tried to call the Mississippi DPS and pose the question, but was directed to voicemail. I would be hesitant to carry out this plan without some assurance that our company and its employees would not run into any trouble. I will post your question with my reply on the board with your permission - let me know.

Tate
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:59:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 1:21:30 PM EDT by Tate]
Can anyone tell me where the Mississippi Attorney General's office stands on RKBA and actually following the LAW?

The open carry option would be a great deterrent to theft IMO.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:06:37 AM EDT
Email sent with references.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:35:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 2:16:59 PM EDT by Tate]

Originally Posted By modog:
Email sent with references.



Nice to "meet" you!

Great reference and great resume in general, modog.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:43:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tate:
^^^
Ineedhelp, david_g17 - great information - I thank you both.

Just to let y'all know that the hive mind is working:

The biggest question of all, asked via email - posted with permission:
***********
I don't have a ton of posts on the board but have been a member for some time.

I am former Air Force currently working in the Banking industry. I previously owned and operated an armed security company in Texas. We Specialized in special event security and couriers. I am a curent CCW holder.

I would be concerned about Mississsippi laws concerning private security. Being familiar we Texas law, it is very strict concerning use of private security. My other concern would be the availability of Food/Water of if it would have to be bought in from outside the area and lodging (hotel, camper, or tent).

Thanks for your time.

John
************
I understand fully your concerns, John. I am hoping that Miss would allow the rules to be bent during the recovery period. I know for sure that Louisiana DOT has allowed the bending of the restrictions on carrying more than 100 gallons of hazardous material (gasoline) on their roadways due to the need for recovery efforts after Katrina. I was hoping for some Miss LEOs to contact me re: this issue. I tried to call the Mississippi DPS and pose the question, but was directed to voicemail. I would be hesitant to carry out this plan without some assurance that our company and its employees would not run into any trouble. I will post your question with my reply on the board with your permission - let me know.

Tate



You should be OK as they are "in house" security. In most states you don't need to be licensed to work "in house" security. It should be easy to verify by going to the states licensing department and checking I don't know which Mississippi state gov ofice handles that.

IM on the way on a coupl other things
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:20:26 PM EDT
man, if I wasnt in college right now I would be all over this. got my ccw and my ar....


Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:17:34 PM EDT
Thank you very much for the research, photoman!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:24:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dsg2003gt:
man, if I wasnt in college right now I would be all over this. got my ccw and my ar....





How do you conceal carry your AR?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:13:58 PM EDT
So what you are asking is basically for some guys to "babysit" the basecamp while the workers are putting on the tarps right?
Is the base camp mobile?
If the guys are to be responsible for their own food and lodging it's pretty tough to supply for 8 weeks, 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. There has to be way to bring in food and water even if the guys have to pay for it.
A security detail would also need a base of operations, motorhome/trailer comes to mind.
The tarp guys can head off to tents after work but the security detail needs a central location to work from, base their comms, plan/assign details and keep an armory of long guns and ammunition, etc. It would also provide a place to have access to local news and weather reports VIA local radio and TV.
Security would in reality be a 24/7 job.
I might be interested but I'd need more info and a hard roof over my head. If there's lodging nearby or onsite I can pay my way untill the check comes in.
That brings up another question, wages. The other thread mentions crew wages from $250-$375 and this thread says less than a crewman...does that mean less than 250 or less than 375?







Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:22:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
fwiw, open carry is 100% legal, but depending on the cops in a particular area it could be good or bad (i.e. anywhere near Jackson would be bad, but nearer to the coast, you'd be ok).



I don't believe open carry is legal in the state of Mississippi. Last time I checked the laws on it, I believe it was worded in a confusing way but I'm fairly sure it isn't legal.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:24:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 2:27:42 PM EDT by modog]

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
So what you are asking is basically for some guys to "babysit" the basecamp while the workers are putting on the tarps right?
Is the base camp mobile?
If the guys are to be responsible for their own food and lodging it's pretty tough to supply for 8 weeks, 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. There has to be way to bring in food and water even if the guys have to pay for it.
A security detail would also need a base of operations, motorhome/trailer comes to mind.
The tarp guys can head off to tents after work but the security detail needs a central location to work from, base their comms, plan/assign details and keep an armory of long guns and ammunition, etc. It would also provide a place to have access to local news and weather reports VIA local radio and TV.
Security would in reality be a 24/7 job.
I might be interested but I'd need more info and a hard roof over my head. If there's lodging nearby or onsite I can pay my way untill the check comes in.
That brings up another question, wages. The other thread mentions crew wages from $250-$375 and this thread says less than a crewman...does that mean less than 250 or less than 375?






I was thinking I have a trailer that would make a fine TOC. Radios, etc. I have ham/FRS/GMRS/CB capability and so on.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:24:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 2:26:06 PM EDT by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By mosesac:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
fwiw, open carry is 100% legal, but depending on the cops in a particular area it could be good or bad (i.e. anywhere near Jackson would be bad, but nearer to the coast, you'd be ok).



I don't believe open carry is legal in the state of Mississippi. Last time I checked the laws on it, I believe it was worded in a confusing way but I'm fairly sure it isn't legal.



It is legal.

Don't expect all the cops to know that, though.

If I wasn't in college, I would do it in a heartbeat... I could definitely use the money. I have a CCW permit and all the necessary gear... if only I could skip class for awhile.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:29:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By mosesac:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
fwiw, open carry is 100% legal, but depending on the cops in a particular area it could be good or bad (i.e. anywhere near Jackson would be bad, but nearer to the coast, you'd be ok).



I don't believe open carry is legal in the state of Mississippi. Last time I checked the laws on it, I believe it was worded in a confusing way but I'm fairly sure it isn't legal.



It is legal.

Don't expect all the cops to know that, though.

If I wasn't in college, I would do it in a heartbeat... I could definitely use the money. I have a CCW permit and all the necessary gear... if only I could skip class for awhile.



Interesting to know, thanks for the info.

I always thought that this meant you could not carry openly though.

(18) Nothing in this section shall be construed to require or allow the registration, documentation or providing of serial numbers with regard to any firearm. Further, nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the open and unconcealed carry of any deadly weapon as described in Section 97-37-1, Mississippi Code of 1972.

Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:35:46 PM EDT
I'm interested when you receive more details. Former police officer, current Texas CCW.

IM me when you have more info.

Thanks,

HH
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:42:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 2:43:03 PM EDT by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By mosesac:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By mosesac:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
fwiw, open carry is 100% legal, but depending on the cops in a particular area it could be good or bad (i.e. anywhere near Jackson would be bad, but nearer to the coast, you'd be ok).



I don't believe open carry is legal in the state of Mississippi. Last time I checked the laws on it, I believe it was worded in a confusing way but I'm fairly sure it isn't legal.



It is legal.

Don't expect all the cops to know that, though.

If I wasn't in college, I would do it in a heartbeat... I could definitely use the money. I have a CCW permit and all the necessary gear... if only I could skip class for awhile.



Interesting to know, thanks for the info.

I always thought that this meant you could not carry openly though.

(18) Nothing in this section shall be construed to require or allow the registration, documentation or providing of serial numbers with regard to any firearm. Further, nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the open and unconcealed carry of any deadly weapon as described in Section 97-37-1, Mississippi Code of 1972.




According to the knowledgeable folks at Packing.org, that paragraph means that:

"Open carry might be permitted under law, but frowned upon by Law Enforcement."

The problem with a law like that is that you can never get a definitive answer. No matter who you call, they never seem to have a clue.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 2:43:38 PM EDT
Interested, lookin' for more details.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:30:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
So what you are asking is basically for some guys to "babysit" the basecamp while the workers are putting on the tarps right?

Right


Is the base camp mobile?

Depending on distance to the outermost job sites, I would think that the camp would move if possible. Other than that - to my knowledge - the camp will be static.


If the guys are to be responsible for their own food and lodging it's pretty tough to supply for 8 weeks, 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. There has to be way to bring in food and water even if the guys have to pay for it.

Naahh - not too hard, IMHO. Now, the food will take up a lot of room in a truck, trailer, or car, but all of my food is all ready to go - sitting in my living room. USACE will provide water and shower tents. We have heard that ice will be made available too. Cost for ice, if any? No idea. Buisnesses in the area are open, but all are not well stocked and many are not taking credit cards or checks - only cash. The Lewisville, Tx Salvation Army is donating a large quantity of bottled water and MREs and that should help folks who don't have a lot of money/supplies for the first two weeks.

A security detail would also need a base of operations, motorhome/trailer comes to mind.

If one of the security guys has a motorhome/trailer - they can bring it! It would be nice to have one provided - - not gonna happen.


The tarp guys can head off to tents after work but the security detail needs a central location to work from, base their comms, plan/assign details and keep an armory of long guns and ammunition, etc.

If the security detail can provide that stuff - cool! Unless the local sherriff gives us an ok, this will end up being a CCW affair. I assure you I am working on making it ok for there to be long guns, but if the local sherriff is a moronic dickhead who looks at LEO and non-LEO as "us vs. them", CCW will be the way it goes down.

Remember that the concerns from myself and a few others in the "nervous gun nut" crowd are the main reason that this is being investigated as aggressively as it is right now. Otherwise, I think the company was assuming that the NG or another organization might guard the camp - AND THEY MIGHT, IN FACT, DO IT - which would negate or at least drastically reduce the need for internal security.

It would also provide a place to have access to local news and weather reports VIA local radio and TV.
Security would in reality be a 24/7 job.

More or less agree with you there - things will be vulnerable at all times, for sure.


I might be interested but I'd need more info and a hard roof over my head.

Not gonna happen unless you can put up a building really fast!


If there's lodging nearby or onsite I can pay my way untill the check comes in.

Other supervisors and workers have asked about this. There is a severe shortage of motel rooms. I heard of one contractor renting a motel room for 15 guys - at least it was a place to shower.
Plan on camping.


That brings up another question, wages. The other thread mentions crew wages from $250-$375 and this thread says less than a crewman...does that mean less than 250 or less than 375?

THAT is the $64,000 question! And one that I don't have an answer for. Not yet, at least.

Great questions, CP. I hope it cleared up some questions for other folks too. As stated earlier - the security detail is purely speculative at this point - nothing is solidly planned right now.

Thanks again.








Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:57:25 PM EDT
Tag for wage info.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:03:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
I'm interested when you receive more details. Former police officer, current Texas CCW.

IM me when you have more info.

Thanks,

HH



Will do, HH!!!

modog - don't lose that trailer!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:04:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tate:

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
I'm interested when you receive more details. Former police officer, current Texas CCW.

IM me when you have more info.

Thanks,

HH



Will do, HH!!!

modog - don't lose that trailer!



Lose, hell..where ya think I'm going to sleep???
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:09:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By modog:

Originally Posted By Tate:

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
I'm interested when you receive more details. Former police officer, current Texas CCW.

IM me when you have more info.

Thanks,

HH



Will do, HH!!!

modog - don't lose that trailer!



Lose, hell..where ya think I'm going to sleep???





Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:11:21 PM EDT
I may be available.

IM, and half of ARFcom knows me. PA CCW.

Ops
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:27:18 PM EDT
I think I've replied to all emails, posts, and IMs.

Have to wait and see what happens now......

Thanks to you all. I really was proud of the response and the quality and number of applicants I have been able to offer my boss.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:39:41 PM EDT
Right up front I am not interested in doing this, but I would like ot ask a few questions just to satisfy my own curiosity, and maybe they same questions are running around in the heads of people that are acctually interested.

1) Will this be an under the table deal, or will it be a temporay hire type of deal. Basically, will the hires be operating as represetatives of the company in any leagle capacity. W-2's, the whole nine yards?

2) What sort of leagle protection is going to be WRITTEN IN THE CONTRACT? As anyone that has been in the military knows, if it is not written down in your contract, then it does not exist. What gaurentees are there that if something does happen that the employees will not be left swinging in the brezze when the law suits happen.

3) How long and what sort of training period are you going to be holding? Is the trainning going to be paid, or will the employees be expected to recive pay for the training hours? This ties into question #2 in that surely there has to be a block of instuction offered by a fully certified and accredited instructor.

4) Who decides what the standards are for use of force, and what systems are in place to ensure they are enforced?

5) It has bit hit on a little before, but what life support systems are going to be in place, and what will need to beprovided by the individuals?

6) What emergancy sevices will be available? Will you have in house medics, or will you be relying on EMS to provide emergancy support?

There are lots of other questions I would personally be asking, but these are some of the big ones. I hope this all goes well for you, but end up happening, then I hope everyone at least knows what kind of situation they are getting themselves into from the start.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:11:58 AM EDT
Tag Im sent can cover the medical end for you as well as CCW holder

-Spook

PS Ops can vouch for me
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:34:06 AM EDT
So if the "security" guys aren't laying tarp, how is their pay determined?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:38:13 AM EDT
Just out of curiosity, is security required for the crews or because of the crews? In other words, is this a camp cop position?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:46:15 AM EDT
So, if you have to shoot a looter, and the relatives decide to sue, is the one who shot the looter SOL, or will the company pay legal fees?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:15:34 AM EDT



"Open carry might be permitted under law, but frowned upon by Law Enforcement."

The problem with a law like that is that you can never get a definitive answer. No matter who you call, they never seem to have a clue.



Ah, don't you just love those vaguely worded laws? Ayn Rand would be so proud of the legislators in MS...make the laws vague and men unable to determine if they're in compliance, so you can bust them and rake in the cash.

I'd look into getting the volunteers licensed as private security. A kickback to the local Chief of Police or Mayor might be needed, unfortunately.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:31:18 AM EDT
The company I work for has--USED to have--a plant in Biloxi. The weekend following Katrina, several guys went down there to see if they could get some of the machinery/vehicles running, and to set up a crane. They were advised by the authorities that if they had firearms to bring 'em, and open carry was ok by them.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:17:19 AM EDT
I'd be on it jst for something different right now, but I can't take the time off work.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:52:48 AM EDT
The legalities are important, good questions.

I would be ready and willing after October 14th. Retired LEO and Florida CCW.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:29:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stefbo:
Right up front I am not interested in doing this, but I would like ot ask a few questions just to satisfy my own curiosity, and maybe they same questions are running around in the heads of people that are acctually interested.

1) Will this be an under the table deal, or will it be a temporay hire type of deal. Basically, will the hires be operating as represetatives of the company in any leagle capacity. W-2's, the whole nine yards?

*IF* this happens, I'd imagine the "guards" would be contract workers - just like everyone else. I9s and W4s.

2) What sort of leagle protection is going to be WRITTEN IN THE CONTRACT? As anyone that has been in the military knows, if it is not written down in your contract, then it does not exist. What gaurentees are there that if something does happen that the employees will not be left swinging in the brezze when the law suits happen.

No contracts have been discussed. I doubt any would be created, frankly. So I guess the short answer is "none". Just like the bonafide Texas State Licensed security company I used to work for, If I remember correctly. In fact, there might have been something in that quarter inch thick contract that I signed and initialed all over the place that specifically stated that the company would not be held responsible for my actions and would not be bound to provide for my legal defense in the event that I had to go to trial for a work related incident. I appreciate your service to our Nation. I was in the military too.


3) How long and what sort of training period are you going to be holding? Is the trainning going to be paid, or will the employees be expected to recive pay for the training hours? This ties into question #2 in that surely there has to be a block of instuction offered by a fully certified and accredited instructor.

You miss the point of this excercise, grasshopper. We aren't running a school - we aren't gearing up for ops behind the lines - this isn't "Uncommon Valor Redux". "Certified and accredited"? Certified and accredited in what?

Here's how the training will go:
"Bob, you sit up there - you can see the area pretty good from up there. "Jerry & Allen - y'all walk around and keep your eyes on stuff - especially on the perimeter up by the road - pretty easy to get into the camp over there. One of you wants to trade places with Bob at some point, that's fine. Don't forget to bring your binoculars and something to drink up there. Y'all all have the cell numbers of all the supervisors - give 'em a yell if you see anything that really sets off alarms or if you think you might get into any trouble. Remember - nobody is sick in bed today and all of the wives and girlfriends are in town for their Wednesday "girls day out". Y'all see anybody snoopin around the camp, you tell 'em they'd best get the fuck out of here right quick." Make sure they leave too. Don't shoot anybody over a sleeping bag, for God's sake, but if you think that you are in physical danger in the least bit, you do what you gotta do - OK? Screw those thievin' assholes."


4) Who decides what the standards are for use of force, and what systems are in place to ensure they are enforced?

Common sense decides - don't kill someone for stealing a can of snuff - someone points a gun at you, they get to enjoy a lead massage. Same rules as most free state's carry laws sounds reasonable to me. Fear for your life or the lives of others = BANG, BANG. Other than that, settle down and keep that round in your pocket, Barney Fife! We're not looking for Nervous Nellies waving their peacemakers around. We're not looking for John Rambo. I've carried for ~nine years, all day, every day - unless I made a mistake, forgot my rig at home, and was without for a few hours. A few places, I couldn't, a few places I wouldn't - other than that, I am strapped 24x7x365. Never fired a shot in anger - never presented my weapon to a threat. I've unholstered discreetly a few times - nobody knew it.

Systems in place = the USA's Criminal Justice System. Shoot someone, and if it was unjustified, you'll probably end up in the penitentiary - or at least in a *lot* of trouble. If it's a good shoot, you'll probably still go to jail for a bit - at least a brief visit - then they should let you go. Group 7 will then pitch in and buy you a case of beer and a cigar. Maybe get you a symbolic shovel with a little pertinent engraving on it!


5) It has bit hit on a little before, but what life support systems are going to be in place, and what will need to beprovided by the individuals?

I guess you could call the water truck a life support system. Water, shower tents, and some ice will be about all that the USACE is providing, I think. As for medic/EMT/doctor availability? I haven't heard anything about organized, official med teams or care flights, or our work area's proximity to a hospital. The foremen and supervisors are supposed to have medical kits in their trucks, and the supervisors will have blankets too. The workers were told to bring a supply of prescriptions that will last at least the duration of the first eight weeks, bandaids, bug spray, sunscreen, toiletries, buttwipes, paper towels, babywipes, and a bottle of their favorite painkiller - asprin, Tylenol, whatever. Typical cold medicines too. Normal bathroom items found in most homes - bring it if you want it 'cause we ain't bringin' it for ya! Tate over in Group 7 suggested that his folks bring a few extras: antifungal spray or powder for their feet along with at least a second pair of boots, a couple of bottles of "New Skin", finger and toenail clippers, hair clippers, simple, but important stuff like that. Oh yeah - all living quarters, transportation, and work equipment too!

6) What emergancy sevices will be available? Will you have in house medics, or will you be relying on EMS to provide emergancy support?

See above.

Also, we have a few really qualified arfcommers that are Medics/EMTs/Combat Lifesaver qualled that said they could join us in Miss. They discussed being able to augment the security folks too. That would be great!!! Still don't know if the company is going to choose to do that though. We'll find out soon.


There are lots of other questions I would personally be asking, but these are some of the big ones.

Please - address your other questions.

Agreed that they are big issues, especially in the litigious society we live in. The answers here are pretty straightforward to me, though. *IF* this happens, it will be a case of relatively low pay for a relatively low keyed, relatively low risk assignment. That's that. Not Blackwater. Not Mogadishu. Some folks in Mississippi had their houses damaged by really bad weather and we're going to put plastic on their roofs so more rain won't get into their houses. Not real dramatic, but that's the story.


I hope this all goes well for you, but end up happening, then I hope everyone at least knows what kind of situation they are getting themselves into from the start.

Not positive I know what you mean, but I think I do. A fair, logically concerned sentiment of well wishes and hope for complete awareness. Thank you!!!

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:31:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
So if the "security" guys aren't laying tarp, how is their pay determined?



*IF* it happens, I would imagine that they would be paid hourly.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:50:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Just out of curiosity, is security required for the crews or because of the crews? In other words, is this a camp cop position?



Well the animations aren't working right now, but if they were, you'd get a toast!

A good question from a different field of view that I hadn't thought of at all.

Yes - security is FOR the crews. More specifically, for our belongings while we are at work and while we are asleep.

NOT a camp cop position at all. I never even considered that. Who knows - maybe we'll need camp cops before it's all over!



Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:08:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
So, if you have to shoot a looter, and the relatives decide to sue, is the one who shot the looter SOL, or will the company pay legal fees?



Probably SOL as far as fees go. But we would testify to him being a God fearing, tax paying, flag waving, gleeming white toothed clone of Mr. Rogers!!!

And he would have that symbolic engraved shovel too!
SSS
The engraving might be: "NEXT TIME, FRIEND, REMEMBER ALL **THREE** Ss - NOT JUST THE FIRST!"
SSS
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:29:40 PM EDT
500 a day and expenses and I will do it
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:58:39 PM EDT
1) Will this be an under the table deal, or will it be a temporay hire type of deal. Basically, will the hires be operating as represetatives of the company in any leagle capacity. W-2's, the whole nine yards?

*IF* this happens, I'd imagine the "guards" would be contract workers - just like everyone else. I9s and W4s.

-sounds good
----------------
2) What sort of leagle protection is going to be WRITTEN IN THE CONTRACT? As anyone that has been in the military knows, if it is not written down in your contract, then it does not exist. What gaurentees are there that if something does happen that the employees will not be left swinging in the brezze when the law suits happen.

No contracts have been discussed. I doubt any would be created, frankly. So I guess the short answer is "none". Just like the bonafide Texas State Licensed security company I used to work for, If I remember correctly. In fact, there might have been something in that quarter inch thick contract that I signed and initialed all over the place that specifically stated that the company would not be held responsible for my actions and would not be bound to provide for my legal defense in the event that I had to go to trial for a work related incident. I appreciate your service to our Nation. I was in the military too.

-dosen't sound so good
----------------
3) How long and what sort of training period are you going to be holding? Is the trainning going to be paid, or will the employees be expected to recive pay for the training hours? This ties into question #2 in that surely there has to be a block of instuction offered by a fully certified and accredited instructor.

You miss the point of this excercise, grasshopper. We aren't running a school - we aren't gearing up for ops behind the lines - this isn't "Uncommon Valor Redux". "Certified and accredited"? Certified and accredited in what?

-I am not missing the point at all, I think you are. If the company is not going to pony up when you get taken to court for using force while performing your duties, then one of the first questions is going to be about levels of training. If there is none, then all it will look like is a bunch of bubbas with guns trying to get their kill on. "We aren't running a school - we aren't gearing up for ops behind the lines" you have not said what industry that your company is in (maybe I just missed it), but I cannot imagine you would hire 6-8 strangers you met on an internet chat board, threw them into a job together and not provide some training in SOP's to get everyone on the same page. I do not know who it is you are looking at hireing if it does kick off, but I doubt they all would handle all given armed confrontations in the same way. I doubt they are all trained to the same standards. Certified and acredited to instruct on whatever scenerios you envision for this group.
----------------
4) Who decides what the standards are for use of force, and what systems are in place to ensure they are enforced?

Common sense decides

-in my experiance comman sense is not very comman when it comes to use of force situations, especially with a group of strangers that have been thrown together with differing experiances and no training on what to do in a given situation.
----------------
5) It has bit hit on a little before, but what life support systems are going to be in place, and what will need to beprovided by the individuals?

I guess you could call the water truck a life support system. Water, shower tents, and some ice will be about all that the USACE is providing...

-sounds good
----------------
6) What emergancy sevices will be available? Will you have in house medics, or will you be relying on EMS to provide emergancy support?

...I haven't heard anything about organized, official med teams or care flights, or our work area's proximity to a hospital...

-i was just curious if you knew the level of EMS support that would be available in the event of physical trauma, it sounds like that information has yet to come in
----------------
Agreed that they are big issues, especially in the litigious society we live in. The answers here are pretty straightforward to me, though. *IF* this happens, it will be a case of relatively low pay for a relatively low keyed, relatively low risk assignment...

-i agree that it seems pretty straight forward
----------------
I hope this all goes well for you, but end up happening, then I hope everyone at least knows what kind of situation they are getting themselves into from the start.

Not positive I know what you mean, but I think I do. A fair, logically concerned sentiment of well wishes and hope for complete awareness. Thank you!!!

-you got it right
----------------

My only concern would be the litigation that would follow for both your company, and any individuals involved in a confrontation. Other then that, sonds good as long as everyone involved knows what is epected. Good luck with this if it happens

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 6:42:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15:
500 a day and expenses and I will do it




500 a day and expenses and I will.... not murder or rape anybody......uuhhh.... just about anything else, though.

Link Posted: 9/26/2005 3:34:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stefbo:
2) What sort of leagle protection is going to be WRITTEN IN THE CONTRACT? As anyone that has been in the military knows, if it is not written down in your contract, then it does not exist. What gaurentees are there that if something does happen that the employees will not be left swinging in the brezze when the law suits happen.

No contracts have been discussed. I doubt any would be created, frankly. So I guess the short answer is "none". Just like the bonafide Texas State Licensed security company I used to work for, If I remember correctly. In fact, there might have been something in that quarter inch thick contract that I signed and initialed all over the place that specifically stated that the company would not be held responsible for my actions and would not be bound to provide for my legal defense in the event that I had to go to trial for a work related incident. I appreciate your service to our Nation. I was in the military too.

-dosen't sound so good

******
You actually think that in the event of a bad shoot that your security company - any of them - from Bubba's to DynCorp - are going to pony up big bucks to get you reduced from murder 2 to voluntary manslaughter? If it's a bad shoot - the company is going to wash their hands of you. I would bet my next mortgage payment that there's a clause allowing them to legally disown you in the CONTRACT in the event of a bad shoot or a guard gone bad.
**********
----------------
3) How long and what sort of training period are you going to be holding? Is the trainning going to be paid, or will the employees be expected to recive pay for the training hours? This ties into question #2 in that surely there has to be a block of instuction offered by a fully certified and accredited instructor.

You miss the point of this excercise, grasshopper. We aren't running a school - we aren't gearing up for ops behind the lines - this isn't "Uncommon Valor Redux". "Certified and accredited"? Certified and accredited in what?

-I am not missing the point at all, I think you are............We aren't running a school - we aren't gearing up for ops behind the lines" you have not said what industry that your company is in (maybe I just missed it),

*******************
A hot link to the three page thread where my company has hired about fifteen arfcommers and is still hiring them right now (right now as in I was communicating an hour ago with a member in AZ who's having troubles receiving our application package) is in the very first post.

As is a description of our core business.

As is the VERY CLEAR mention to everyone that this is a small time, no uniforms, ccw post that *might* be set up to keep high school kids and shitbird opportunists from vandalizing and stealing our stuff while we're at work. Some seem to have gone into Tom Clancy mode in this thread. I'm starting to think it's pretty hilarious!!!
********************


bu­t I cannot imagine you would hire 6-8 strangers you met on an internet chat board,

****************
I really hate to pull this card out because many times, a newer person posts more informative, well thought out posts than an oldtimer does. In fact, your questions are well stated, stefbo - good posts.

Anyway - here goes.
NOT ALL OF US JOINED IN DECEMBER 04! Many have been shooting together, eating and partying together, vacationing together, in business together, trading goods on the EE together, and lots of other stuff too since back when the complete year designation began with a "1" - not a "2".

The board didn't begin when you registered.

There are some folks on this board, the falfiles, and battlerifles.ambackforum that I would trust my LIFE with.
*******************


threw them into a job together and not provide some training in SOP's to get everyone on the same page. I do not know who it is you are looking at hireing if it does kick off, but I doubt they all would handle all given armed confrontations in the same way. I doubt they are all trained to the same standards. Certified and acredited to instruct on whatever scenerios you envision for this group.
----------------
4) Who decides what the standards are for use of force, and what systems are in place to ensure they are enforced?

Common sense decides

-in my experiance comman sense is not very comman when it comes to use of force situations, especially with a group of strangers that have been thrown together with differing experiances and no training on what to do in a given situation.


*************
Maybe this will FINALLY explain our "tactical mindset":

One option for us that might come to pass is to camp on a large church's property and have church volunteers watch our stuff while we're working. If Deacon Smith shoots Napoleon, Champagne, and Latrell when they threaten him during the act of trying to steal our shit, my money is on nobody with any decency giving a good Goddamn about it and the good Deacon will be in the pews on Sunday. Now if the Deacon shoots Little Miss Molly, the 78 yr old piano player for the church, just because he saw "movement" - then the Deacon is hosed. My company could be hosed too, I guess - depending on the depravity level of the lawyers.
***********


5) It has bit hit on a little before, but what life support systems are going to be in place, and what will need to beprovided by the individuals?

I guess you could call the water truck a life support system. Water, shower tents, and some ice will be about all that the USACE is providing...

-sounds good
----------------
6) What emergancy sevices will be available? Will you have in house medics, or will you be relying on EMS to provide emergancy support?

***************
I finally got word on this!!!! I actually know something!!!

Electricity, medical, police, fire, and 911 services have been fully restored.
************

----------------
Agreed that they are big issues, especially in the litigious society we live in. The answers here are pretty straightforward to me, though. *IF* this happens, it will be a case of relatively low pay for a relatively low keyed, relatively low risk assignment...

-i agree that it seems pretty straight forward
----------------
I hope this all goes well for you, but end up happening, then I hope everyone at least knows what kind of situation they are getting themselves into from the start.

Not positive I know what you mean, but I think I do. A fair, logically concerned sentiment of well wishes and hope for complete awareness. Thank you!!!

-you got it right
----------------

My only concern would be the litigation that would follow for both your company, and any individuals involved in a confrontation. Other then that, sonds good as long as everyone involved knows what is epected. Good luck with this if it happens


********
Thank you again, stefbo. This fervent discussion has been a pleasure. Your points are well taken and valid.

Tate
*************

Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:39:49 AM EDT
Gentlemen - Medic/EMT aid is no longer needed - thank you so much for the offers!!!
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