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Posted: 9/23/2004 12:46:30 AM EST
I am just throwing out a feeler to see if I am isolated in my own opinion as I was accused of elsewhere today. I thought this would be a good forum to see if I'm on the fringe or not. my sources might not be concrete as I feel one has to absorb the the various medias and try to discern bulls!?t from fact. I am of the opinion the middle east is a complete snowballing clusterf!?k.
I repeat OPINIONS
1. Iraq: bad if we stay, civil war if we leave. Civil war at best likely at worst inevitable regardless
2. Afghanistan: parts of taliban now apparently taking part in developing government
3. Pakistan: siiting on nukes Musasharriff likley out of power in next election fringe militant islamist gaining power in every election I beleive in the west their known as the MMA
4. Iran: making every effort to develop nukes and no effort to hide that fact. Openly threatened to strike Israeli and U.S. targets if either strike their developing nuclear facilities. I figure if they strike Israel Tehran becomes a nuclear test range.
5. Saudi Arabia: "allies" don't make me laugh. it seems increasingly likley the Saudi king and his government will be overthrown and replaced by a fringe islamist theocracy in the short futire. it is my own personal opinion we should make every effort short of direct combat to disstabilize and remove their regime regardless. It does not seem to me the Saudi people regardess of their beleifs secular or extremist want them in power.
6. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Kuwait dont seem to offer help or encourage general sanity in the region, at least to me. And any support of Israel is seen negativley but they are our only allies in the area.

I'm not even talking about North Korea which is probably the biggest threat. Although I do not want to argue politics (I have an extremley low opinion of politicians and media in general) these are also strong reasons to not vote for Kerry, but I doubt seriously anyone who would be active on this site would.

eagerly await replies! yes no agree disagree all opinions welcome.

Matt
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:50:24 AM EST
Seems a preety good assessment of the situation to me…
Only thing I would argue is No 6, Syria is not a friend…

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:56:47 AM EST
Well, I disagree with quite a few of your statements regarding specific countries and situations in the Middle East. But yes, that whole area is a powderkeg ready to ignite. That is why we better be prepared to do what must be done should this ever turn ugly fast. I'm not yet convinced enough of the general population (or the government in many cases) has the stomach to do what may have to be done in the not so distant future. But I can assure you, if certain things were to happen, there will be no pretty solution.

And the one thing I agree with you most about however is that Kerry simply isn't the man to lead our nation in such dangerous times. He is far too soft, far to indecisive and far too wrong. He simply isn't a man with the tools required to lead in such a time. On the other hand, Bush is tough, consistent and willing. That makes him a 100% more effective leader in times when the SHTF. He's simply the ONLY choice in this election.

-CH
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:05:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:06:08 AM EST by NightWatchman]
I agree with most of your opinions except for minor stuff.

1. Yeah this is a mess not sure what you mean. Should we leave?
3. Musharaf is a dictator he will likely fix any election that happens and stay in power.
5. My only hope is that if any Saudi fanatical government that takes power tries to hoard the oil to punish the west or overcharges us for the oil. Then we can just take the oil, maybe even get the Euros on board. I would like to just take the oil fields and guard the pipelines screw occupying cities etc. Imagine having Saudi Arabia's oil fields divided up into sectors. US, France,Germany,UK maybe even India and China they all need the black gold. Without the oil money SA is a giant kitty litter box nothin but sand. Watch the Jihad money from SA slow to nothing.
7. Syria is not our friend and Lebanon is controlled by Syria.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:06:31 AM EST
Of course, we're on this stupid "democracy" kick, most Arabic countries and Pakistan would choose Islamist governments if possible, look at Algeria. We won the Cold War by picking strongmen who were on our side (Pinochet, D'abussion, the Aparthied regeim in SA, the Shah) and didn't worry about how popular they were. But now our culture is so pussified that we can't make those kind of decisions. Look at Russia, Putin takes some strong measures to get a hold of his situation and we cry about his "committment to democracy".
I like Bush, and there's no one who's a reasonable alternative, but our focus ought to be who's on our side. Secular military dictatorships run by Western trained officers should be our ideal form of government in the Islamic world.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:11:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 1:11:27 AM EST by RAMBOSKY]
It's been a mess a long before we got there. Now that we're there we need to try to stabilize it which I hope we'll eventually do.

Putting our heads in the sand (no pun intended) and turning our backs to this part of the world will eventually lead to a bigger disaster for our country.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:11:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:23:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 7:25:39 AM EST by RAMBOSKY]

Originally posted by sherrick13:

"It always has been and always will be.
>>>> But we have this choice.
Fight them there or fight them here.
>>> We need to stay the course."




Tthat's a cool poem. I like it.

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:43:53 AM EST
I read my post I dont beleive I insinuated Syria was a freind, quite the opposite at best. Also with Iraq I was not advocating leaving simply damned if we do damned if we don't. Putin is a different story, he will likley soon turn Chechnya into a parking lot. Once Russia does this it will make any show of force by us look irrelevant. I myself know many people from the old satelite countries Romania, Estonia, Hungaria and even Bosnia. All of these people look at anyone who F!?ks with mother Russia as heros, karmic payback for 80+ years of communism. That said I or they would never advocate killing children that crosses a line that should never be stepped over, however individuallly they all said the Russians don't take time to sort out combatants or noncombatants, guilty or innocent they shoot everyone in the way. In my opinion it is time for a strong show of force as it seems power is all those in the middle east understand. Sadddam bad as he was at least knew this but we should make every effort to not fall in his category while doing so. I think Bush should set an exit date in Iraq I am convinced our presence there will change little the SHTF will happen regardless.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:50:41 AM EST
I constantly amazed at the naivety of some. The Middle East has be a mess for hundreds of years it is not going to become stable overnight.


1. Iraq: bad if we stay, civil war if we leave. Civil war at best likely at worst inevitable regardless


It took 7 years to get a stable government in Germany after WWII. We either have the fortitude to finish in Iraq or we deserver what we get if we cut and run… and that will be far worse that staying.


2. Afghanistan: parts of taliban now apparently taking part in developing government


Nice you have bought the Democratic Party line… The Taliban is a destroyed and isolated in a small area of Afghanistan and are basically and non-factor. Some War Lords could cause problems BUT there are elections in Afghanistan in about 1 MONTH.


3. Pakistan: siiting on nukes Musasharriff likley out of power in next election fringe militant islamist gaining power in every election I beleive in the west their known as the MMA


Wrong… Pakistan does not have an election winner the military does not approve. Musharraf stays as long as he wants.


4. Iran: making every effort to develop nukes and no effort to hide that fact. Openly threatened to strike Israeli and U.S. targets if either strike their developing nuclear facilities. I figure if they strike Israel Tehran becomes a nuclear test range.


Thanks to John Kerry’s UN and European “Allies” Iran could get a nuclear weapon… Bush and Israel are the only chance of stopping them.


5. Saudi Arabia: "allies" don't make me laugh. it seems increasingly likley the Saudi king and his government will be overthrown and replaced by a fringe islamist theocracy in the short futire. it is my own personal opinion we should make every effort short of direct combat to disstabilize and remove their regime regardless. It does not seem to me the Saudi people regardess of their beleifs secular or extremist want them in power.


The likely hood of the Saudi Government being over thrown is miniscule… we do something as stupid as trying to destabilize the current government is to grantee disaster. Sometimes you have to work with people you would rather not. That is a grown up fact of life.


6. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Kuwait dont seem to offer help or encourage general sanity in the region, at least to me. And any support of Israel is seen negativley but they are our only allies in the area.


Syria is not the same as Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Kuwait. Syria is a serious problem but Jordan and Kuwait have both help it the current war in Iraq. Kuwait openly and Jordan under the table.


I'm not even talking about North Korea which is probably the biggest threat. Although I do not want to argue politics (I have an extremley low opinion of politicians and media in general) these are also strong reasons to not vote for Kerry, but I doubt seriously anyone who would be active on this site would.


North Korea is NOT the biggest threat, North Korea is using the nuclear card to blackmail the US in to giving them what they want food, electric power, and a guarantee of survival of the North Korean leadership. They can be handled.

You seem to not remember the war against terror… Iraq is the Key to it all. If we succeed in Iraq we will cripple the terrorist, isolate Iran and encourage internal unrest, and send a clear message to the world.

If we back down we fail.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:54:40 AM EST
In spite of Max_Mike's irrational dislike of the Lord of the Rings movies, he is dead-on right about the Middle East.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:57:18 AM EST
Kuwait seems to look the other way when it comes to Israel. Unlike some European countries, the Kuwaitis remember what we did for them and still appreciate it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:58:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:59:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
In spite of Max_Mike's irrational dislike of the Lord of the Rings movies, he is dead-on right about the Middle East.



You must mean the recent “Cartoon of the Ring” disguised as Tolkien’s masterpeice…
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 8:37:44 AM EST
Media Fantasies

I am asking your opinion not doubting you. The shiites won't try to setup a Iranian like theocrasy and overrun the minority Tsuni and Kurds. The Kurds will not try to become an independent country taking a majority of Iraqs largest commodity OIL in the process. I know the Kurds are our allies but the Shiites and Tsunis would surley not allow this. The media makes it seem like there is A power vaccumm only the corrupt Extremist Religous Leaders and Corrupt Politicians and Bereaucrats are running to fill The media seems to promote fantasies (Fox) or biased bulls?!t (CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, N.Y. papers, L.A. papers, D.C. papers, news papers in general) Are you suggesting ignoring the media completely I would not really disagree? And lastly in your opinion what is the best surce for news? Is it all B.S. ?
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 9:50:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 9:51:52 AM EST by r1tual]
MillerSHO you didnt post your source.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 9:56:01 AM EST
... What makes you think making the transition was going to be easy. They're not going to be, and it's not going to happen overnight either. I guess we could just tuck tail and run, leaving the Islamofacists to brew nukes, chemical and bio-weapons unchecked.

... Never surrender
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 10:21:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 10:29:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 10:30:54 AM EST by r1tual]
Muslim news agencies denouncing beheadings? LOL. Must be because they read ar15.com that it is only making us hate them more. Or they have been reading sun tzu. Make the enemy like you, deceive the enemy, then only chop off their heads once a month so it isnt so bad.

I have no sympathy for these people. And I will denounce them for as long as I live. They are a weak people who cannot organize themselves to bring themselves under control. Their religion is immoral, and they breed hatred and criminals.

Down with Islam. ..|..,
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 2:02:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By MillerSHO:

Posted at 3:35 PM, Pacific

From a Marine Corps Major in Baghdad:

"A thought from Iraq - "Doom & Gloom about Iraq's future....I don't see it from where I'm sitting."

You may not have even heard about the city of Samarra. Two weeks ago, that Sunni Triangle city was a "No-go" area for US troops. But guess what? The locals got sick of living in fear from the insurgents and foreign fighters that were there and let them know they weren't welcome. They stopped hosting them in their houses and the mayor of the town brokered a deal with the US commander to return Iraqi government sovereignty to the city without a fight. The people saw what was on the horizon and decided they didn't want their city looking like Fallujah in April or Najaf in August.



Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi mentioned this event this morning when he addressed the Congress.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 2:20:08 PM EST
Personally, i could care less about any of the people in that part of the world.
But, I do want us to be successful so our boys over there didn't die in vain.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 2:45:07 PM EST
Iraq may be a "mess" but we have to discern the least of many evils: leaving and dissolving into civil war, sending more troops and possibly increasing the casualty PERCENTAGE, etc. However, we still must stay the course. We can't let this turn into another Vietnam which Kerry has already declared he will. Kerry says within 3 mos. of his taking office he will begin an "Honorable Retreat" (sounds like a contradiction to me) and within 4 years he will have taken out all U.S. troops in Iraq. Kerry will say whatever it takes to weasel his way into office. But that's another topic for a different thread. The Middle East is now, and will be for a long time, an amalgamation of fighting tribes and religious fanatics. However, the threat of terrorism being harbored in the Middle East is very real. Islamic fundamentalism is spreading all throughout the world from the Philippines, to Latin America, to parts of India. We have to stop terrorism even if we do live the Middle Eastern nations alone.

"People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." ­ George Orwell

GRH - God's Right Hand - "Hold No Quarter. Feel No Remorse."
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 3:19:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 3:30:43 PM EST by r1tual]


Link Posted: 9/23/2004 3:58:04 PM EST
Elect Kerry
Let him take us out of Iraq in 2 years or whatever his chickenshit time table is
Signal the entire world of Islam that we can be intimidated
AT THAT POINT WE WILL HAVE A REAL CLUSTER FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 6:56:31 PM EST
I strongly agree with NE223 John Kerry is a flipflopping, self agrandizing, out of touch JACKASS. As many times as I have had this argument no Democrat or liberal has yet given me an intelligent reason to vote for this Idiot other than he's not Bush. In saying this I feel it neccessary to say I am no fan of Bush, but I see a vote for Bush as shooting yourself in the foot and a vote for Kerry as shooting yourself in the head. I will vote the lesser of two evils every time! Secondly I don't think some French, spanish, or german coward has the right to dictate how are country should be run. To the person supporting Kerry what is your logical rational reason for voting for Kerry? Do you not want to P.O. the French?
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