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Posted: 9/17/2009 1:19:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 6:12:50 AM EST by Breaker83]
Hi all
I think Sgt. Jared Monti died a herioc death. My condolances to his family. He was awarded the congressional Medal of Honoh(CMOH) today by President B.O. ...

"Sgt. Jared Monti: Monti was leading a small Army patrol near the Pakistani border in 2006 when it was ambushed. He called for help, then ventured out to rescue a wounded soldier, losing his own life. The man he tried to rescue, as well as a medic, later died when a helicopter cable snapped."

http://news.aol.com/article/late-soldier-sgt-jared-monti-to-receive/674499

I don't think he deserves the Medal of Honor.

Compare,if you will, what other winners of the CMH have done:
(Although I suggest skipping the cases where whole units were given a CMOH for re-enlisting during the Cival War.)

http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html

IMHO Sgt. Jared Monti certainly deserves some type of award, but not the highest one.

Before the imature name calling begins-really think about this issue. If every one who has died in the Iraq War was given a CMOH- what would it really mean?

RIP Sgt. Jared Monti.



Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:22:03 PM EST
I must agree with you.


RIP Sgt. Monti
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:22:50 PM EST
I agree, unfortunately.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:26:05 PM EST
Maybe a DSC?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:26:46 PM EST
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:27:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By capnrob97:
I agree, unfortunately.


Same here.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:27:50 PM EST
Must think
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:29:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.

I wasn't commenting on this one in particular, but I think the MOH is getting watered down a bit.

Maybe I am wrong, so be it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:30:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 1:30:55 PM EST by Rogue-Sasquatch]
Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.


He attempted more than once to retrieve a downed comrade under fire and was killed before he was successful. It doesn't mention him being actively engaged in firing back or fighting while trying to do so (he may have been).

Compare that to other MoH actions. More than one of them involve SUCCESSFUL retrieval of several fellow soldiers, while under fire, while being wounded, AND fighting back.

There's no doubt he was a hero... but the standards for the MoH have been set at a higher level of achievement, based on their history.

DSC does sound about right.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:35:40 PM EST
If thats enough to get the MOH, that young man who took shrapnel from two grenades while shielding his leader, and then using his SAW to charge the enemy and break their assault should have gotten it. But he survived so I guess it doesn't count anymore.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:37:20 PM EST
I can't really say much. But I do support the MoH being only awarded in extremely unique circumstances.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:41:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 1:43:40 PM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]
My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes.

This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:41:28 PM EST
I wanted to say the same thing when I first heard about this. This man is a hero without question. Honestly I didn't have the balls to post it though.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:42:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 1:44:34 PM EST by Scooter308]
Let the Armchair Quarterbacks preach.

What the Fuck is wrong with you people, second guessing this award, you were not there, you don't know what went on, you have to be put up for the award, they check and interview his soldiers.

You make me fucking sick; hang your heads in shame.


When soldiers in his unit tried to tell Monti the hail of Taliban gunfire was too fierce to make a third try to rescue the wounded soldier, Obama cited the sergeant reply: "He is my soldier and I'm going to get him."

"Jared became the consummate NCO - the non-comissioned officer caring for his soldiers, and teaching his troops," remarked President Obama at the ceremony. "He called them 'his boys,' although he was still obviously young himself. Some of them called him 'Grandpa.'" Monti, 30, was killed by an rocket propelled grenade in 2006. The White House ceremony was attended by other members of the sergeant's unit from the 10th Mountain Division. And the Army's outpost in the Hindu Kush Mountains of Afghanistan where he was killed was rededicated as Combat Outpost Monti today in a ceremony by soldiers assigned there.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:43:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By SonOfNorway:
If thats enough to get the MOH, that young man who took shrapnel from two grenades while shielding his leader, and then using his SAW to charge the enemy and break their assault should have gotten it. But he survived so I guess it doesn't count anymore.


I believe he should have, yeah.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:43:50 PM EST
I would say compare it to these. I think he was heroic, but no deserving of the MOH

*DUNHAM, JASON L.

Rank and Organization: Corporal, United States Marine Corps
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as Rifle Squad Leader, 4th Platoon, Company K, Third Battalion, Seventh Marines (Reinforced), Regimental Combat Team 7, First Marine Division (Reinforced), on 14 April 2004. Corporal Dunham's squad was conducting a reconnaissance mission in the town of Karabilah, Iraq, when they heard rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire erupt approximately two kilometers to the west. Corporal Dunham led his Combined Anti-Armor Team towards the engagement to provide fire support to their Battalion Commander's convoy, which had been ambushed as it was traveling to Camp Husaybah. As Corporal Dunham and his Marines advanced, they quickly began to receive enemy fire. Corporal Dunham ordered his squad to dismount their vehicles and led one of his fire teams on foot several blocks south of the ambushed convoy. Discovering seven Iraqi vehicles in a column attempting to depart, Corporal Dunham and his team stopped the vehicles to search them for weapons. As they approached the vehicles, an insurgent leaped out and attacked Corporal Dunham. Corporal Dunham wrestled the insurgent to the ground and in the ensuing struggle saw the insurgent release a grenade. Corporal Dunham immediately alerted his fellow Marines to the threat. Aware of the imminent danger and without hesitation, Corporal Dunham covered the grenade with his helmet and body, bearing the brunt of the explosion and shielding his Marines from the blast. In an ultimate and selfless act of bravery in which he was mortally wounded, he saved the lives of at least two fellow Marines. By his undaunted courage, intrepid fighting spirit, and unwavering devotion to duty, Corporal Dunham gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.

*McGINNIS, ROSS A.

Rank and Organization: Private First Class, United States Army
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:
Private First Class Ross A. McGinnis distinguished himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty while serving as an M2 .50-caliber Machine Gunner, 1st Platoon, C Company, 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment, in connection with combat operations against an armed enemy in Adhamiyah, Northeast Baghdad, Iraq, on 4 December 2006.

That afternoon his platoon was conducting combat control operations in an effort to reduce and control sectarian violence in the area. While Private McGinnis was manning the M2 .50-caliber Machine Gun, a fragmentation grenade thrown by an insurgent fell through the gunner's hatch into the vehicle. Reacting quickly, he yelled "grenade," allowing all four members of his crew to prepare for the grenade's blast. Then, rather than leaping from the gunner's hatch to safety, Private McGinnis made the courageous decision to protect his crew. In a selfless act of bravery, in which he was mortally wounded, Private McGinnis covered the live grenade, pinning it between his body and the vehicle and absorbing most of the explosion.

Private McGinnis' gallant action directly saved four men from certain serious injury or death. Private First Class McGinnis' extraordinary heroism and selflessness at the cost of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty, are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.

*MONSOOR, MICHAEL, A.

Rank and Organization: Master-At-Arms Second Class (Sea, Air And Land), United States Navy
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as automatic weapons gunner for Naval Special Warfare Task Group Arabian Peninsula, in support of Operation IRAQI FREEDOM on 29 September 2006. As a member of a combined SEAL and Iraqi Army Sniper Overwatch Element, tasked with providing early warning and stand-off protection from a rooftop in an insurgent held sector of Ar Ramadi, Iraq, Petty Officer Monsoor distinguished himself by his exceptional bravery in the face of grave danger. In the early morning, insurgents prepared to execute a coordinated attack by reconnoitering the area around the element's position. Element snipers thwarted the enemy's initial attempt by eliminating two insurgents. The enemy continued to assault the element, engaging them with a rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire. As enemy activity increased, Petty Officer Monsoor took position with his machine gun between two teammates on an outcropping of the roof. While the SEALs vigilantly watched for enemy activity, an insurgent threw a hand grenade from an unseen location, which bounced off Petty Officer Monsoor's chest and landed in front of him. Although only he could have escaped the blast, Petty Officer Monsoor chose instead to protect his teammates. Instantly and without regard for his own safety, he threw himself onto the grenade to absorb the force of the explosion with his body, saving the lives of his two teammates. By his undaunted courage, fighting spirit, and unwavering devotion to duty in the face of certain death, Petty Officer Monsoor gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

*SMITH, PAUL R.

Rank and Organization: Sergeant First Class, United States Army
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:Sergeant First Class Paul R. Smith distinguished himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action with an armed enemy near Baghdad International Airport, Baghdad, Iraq on 4 April 2003. On that day, Sergeant First Class Smith was engaged in the construction of a prisoner of war holding area when his Task Force was violently attacked by a company-sized enemy force. Realizing the vulnerability of over 100 fellow soldiers, Sergeant First Class Smith quickly organized a hasty defense consisting of two platoons of soldiers, one Bradley Fighting Vehicle and three armored personnel carriers. As the fight developed, Sergeant First Class Smith braved hostile enemy fire to personally engage the enemy with hand grenades and anti-tank weapons, and organized the evacuation of three wounded soldiers from an armored personnel carrier struck by a rocket propelled grenade and a 60mm mortar round. Fearing the enemy would overrun their defenses, Sergeant First Class Smith moved under withering enemy fire to man a .50 caliber machine gun mounted on a damaged armored personnel carrier. In total disregard for his own life, he maintained his exposed position in order to engage the attacking enemy force. During this action, he was mortally wounded. His courageous actions helped defeat the enemy attack, and resulted in as many as 50 enemy soldiers killed, while allowing the safe withdrawal of numerous wounded soldiers. Sergeant First Class Smith’s extraordinary heroism and uncommon valor are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the Third Infantry Division “Rock of the Marne,” and the United States Army.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:46:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By SonOfNorway:
If thats enough to get the MOH, that young man who took shrapnel from two grenades while shielding his leader, and then using his SAW to charge the enemy and break their assault should have gotten it. But he survived so I guess it doesn't count anymore.


They don't want to award the MOH to the actual SM these days. They will only give it to their families. Apparently a living SM receiving the MOH isn't PC nowadays.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:48:40 PM EST
It's time to award the medal to a LIVING hero!
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:49:57 PM EST
Model Soldier

"He set an example in every way, shape and form," said former Capt. Ross A. Berkoff, the unit's intelligence officer, explaining that Monti was known as the best NCO in the 3rd Squadron, 71st Cavalry Regiment (Recon), 3rd Brigade Combat Team.

"He was willing to stand up for his Soldiers," added now-Staff Sgt. Christopher J. Grzecki. "He didn't care what the guy above him thought of him as long as he knew that he was doing the right thing to take care of his guys."

Monti would have done anything for his Soldiers, so after the initial shock, no one was surprised that he sacrificed his life to save another Soldier during an intense firefight with Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan, June 21, 2006.

First for Afghanistan

He was posthumously promoted to sergeant first class the following day and will be the first Soldier awarded the Medal of Honor for Operation Enduring Freedom Thursday, when President Barack Obama presents the nation's highest honor to Monti's parents in a White House ceremony. Monti will also be honored in a Pentagon ceremony Friday.

Monti will actually be the second servicemember to receive the Medal of Honor for valor in Afghanistan as a Navy Seal, Lt. Michael Murphy, was posthumously presented the medal two years ago for his actions in a 2005 battle against Taliban fighters in the remote Hindu Kush mountains.

Monti earned the Medal when he and 15 other Soldiers became the first American servicemembers to ever set foot in the Gremen Valley, near the Pakistan border. Reports had showed insurgents were in the area, but not their exact location, their numbers or the types of weapons they had.

Kill Teams

Monti's patrol consisted of two six-man "Kill Teams" led by now-Sgt. 1st Class Christopher M. Cunningham and now-Staff Sgt. John Hawes, combinations of snipers and forward observers. Because the mission was dangerous, the teams were assigned several extra scouts, a medic and Monti. Although Monti had helped build the Kill Teams with his best men, he hadn't been out on a mission with them yet and the men were excited to work together.

They were on a reconnaissance mission to provide their command with information on the enemy before the 3rd BCT began a larger push into the region for Operation Gowardesh Thrust. They were supposed to stay hidden - not an easy feat for 16 men - and avoid engaging the enemy if possible; but Hawes said both he and several other Soldiers had gut feelings that something wasn't right.

Dropped off at a mortar-firing position near the Gowardesh Bridge on the evening of June 17, the Soldiers began a difficult climb up the mountain the next day. Moving mostly at night to avoid enemy detection, they climbed for three days before reaching their first observation point at a plateau 2,600 meters above sea level the evening of June 20, the night before the operation was scheduled to begin.

But unit commanders were forced to push the attack back at least 24 hours. Cunningham said they knew they had to push forward because of the danger of detection, but they needed more food and water.

A resupply was supposed to occur after dark, protecting their position, but Hawes was chagrined to see large white packages dropping less than 150 meters from them in broad daylight. When some of the men returned with the supplies, it was to see a man watching them with military-grade binoculars - unusual for the average Afghan villager.

Overwhelming firepower

A couple of hours later as dusk was falling and Monti, Cunningham and Hawes were discussing their options, a rocket-propelled grenade flew over their heads and they were overwhelmed by a stunning amount of firepower. Some of the Soldiers' rifles were shot out of their hands while others couldn't even reach their weapons. Monti got on the radio to call in indirect fire and air support, and Hawes remembered the Soldiers taking cover behind a few boulders and passing weapons back and forth to take the best shots.

Cunningham soon realized Pfc. Brian J. Bradbury was missing. He was injured and laying about 20 meters away in a slight depression. Cunningham was closer and offered to get him, but Monti refused, saying Bradbury was his Soldier.

He handed his radio to Sgt. Chris J. Grzecki and said, "You are now Chaos three-five," his call sign, and ran toward Bradbury. The wood line erupted with intense fire aimed at Monti. He made it a few meters before he was pushed back behind a small stone wall where another Soldier lay dead. He ran out again, was pushed behind the wall again and then ran into fire a third time.

Running into fire

"Monti ran straight for Bradbury as we all provided covering fire," Hawes wrote to Monti's mother Janet. "I remember seeing Monti running and I was firing...as close as I dared.... Just as he was about to reach Bradbury, I ran out of ammo and as I dropped behind the rock to change magazines...I heard an RPG...explode. Monti's scream that he had been hit followed shortly after." Monti said he made his peace with God and asked someone to tell his parents he loved them before falling silent.

"It's not surprising in any way," said Cunningham. "I know he knew what he was going up against to help out his Soldier. I know he knew the consequences.... Ultimately, he knew he needed to get his guy."

Air support came a few minutes later and they finally pushed the insurgents back as darkness fell. The Soldiers spent an anxious night and after helicopters arrived to evacuate the dead the next morning, the patrol high-tailed it down the mountain.

An unwanted honor

Medals were the last thing on Cunningham and Hawes' minds (both men were later awarded Silver Stars and Grzecki and other Soldiers received the Bronze Star with Valor or the Army Commendation Medal with Valor), but when their commander said he was putting Monti in for the Medal of Honor, both men knew he deserved it.

And when the award finally came through and the president called Monti's father Paul, he called Cunningham with the overwhelming, bittersweet news.

"I have a tremendous feeling of pride," Paul Monti said. "But I still can't get over not having my son. I would give all of this up, all of it, everything, just to have him back, just to be able to hug him one more time."

Monti's family and friends agree that the award would have been the last thing he wanted. Monti was humble to a fault and most of his family didn't know he had received two Bronze Stars and a Purple Heart on a previous deployment until his funeral because he believed each award represented the death of someone's son, father or husband.

"It's nothing you want," Hawes explained. "When you start getting into that level of award, especially the Silver Star and higher, it's sounds cool when you read about it in a book, but when you realize what it takes to earn it ... it really has to hit the fan and friends and stuff die, and that's not worth anything."

He would have wanted the medal to go to his men, Monti's mother said.

"To him it would represent every single Soldier, Marine, Sailor, whoever, whether they're still in Afghanistan or Iraq or home; whether they came home alive or in a casket; came home spiritually, emotionally or physically wounded.... This (award) is for all of them," Janet Monti said.

Living on through his men

Monti taught Hawes and Grzecki how to be NCOs and take care of their men, and Cunningham explained that he had the "luxury" of working with Monti's men. They loved him so much and emulated him to the extent that Cunningham felt like he was still working with Monti.

Hawes is now stationed at Fort Jackson, S.C., and has shared Monti's story with his holdover recruits, inspiring several to stay in the Army, so Monti's values, the Army values, continue on today.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:50:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By capnrob97:

Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.

I wasn't commenting on this one in particular, but I think the MOH is getting watered down a bit.

Maybe I am wrong, so be it.


What? There hasn't been a single MOH awarded to a living person in the last 8 years while fighting two wars. How the fuck can you call that watered down?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:52:14 PM EST
The thing is, combat is changing. no longer as personal, more push button, call for support warfare. Less oppurtunity for extreme heroism. There was an article about this in the VFW magazine i think where living MOH winners where saying the standard is dropping due to the nature of warfare.

and example is the following MOH winner from ww2

McKlNNEY, JOHN R.

Rank and organization: Sergeant (then Private), U.S. Army, Company A, 123d Infantry, 33d Infantry Division. Place and date: Tayabas Province, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 11 May 1945. Entered service at: Woodcliff, Ga. Birth: Woodcliff, Ga. G.O. No.: 14, 4 February 1946. Citation: He fought with extreme gallantry to defend the outpost which had been established near Dingalan Bay. Just before daybreak approximately 100 Japanese stealthily attacked the perimeter defense, concentrating on a light machinegun position manned by 3 Americans. Having completed a long tour of duty at this gun, Pvt. McKinney was resting a few paces away when an enemy soldier dealt him a glancing blow on the head with a saber. Although dazed by the stroke, he seized his rifle, bludgeoned his attacker, and then shot another assailant who was charging him. Meanwhile, 1 of his comrades at the machinegun had been wounded and his other companion withdrew carrying the injured man to safety. Alone, Pvt. McKinney was confronted by 10 infantrymen who had captured the machinegun with the evident intent of reversing it to fire into the perimeter. Leaping into the emplacement, he shot 7 of them at pointblank range and killed 3 more with his rifle butt. In the melee the machinegun was rendered inoperative, leaving him only his rifle with which to meet the advancing Japanese, who hurled grenades and directed knee mortar shells into the perimeter. He warily changed position, secured more ammunition, and reloading repeatedly, cut down waves of the fanatical enemy with devastating fire or clubbed them to death in hand-to-hand combat. When assistance arrived, he had thwarted the assault and was in complete control of the area. Thirty-eight dead Japanese around the machinegun and 2 more at the side of a mortar 45 yards distant was the amazing toll he had exacted single-handedly. By his indomitable spirit, extraordinary fighting ability, and unwavering courage in the face of tremendous odds, Pvt. McKinney saved his company from possible annihilation and set an example of unsurpassed intrepidity.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:54:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 1:55:14 PM EST by SSeric02]
Originally Posted By DLoken:


What? There hasn't been a single MOH awarded to a living person in the last 8 years while fighting two wars. How the fuck can you call that watered down?


I agree, and believe there are some cases of living men who should have received it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:55:02 PM EST
I can't believe what I'm reading here.

He was actively involved in the fight, firing and calling in air/arty. He tried THREE times, under heavy fire, to get the wounded guy. The third attempt cost him his life. The fact that the other guy subsequently died in no way lessens his sacrifice.

IIRC one of the first MoH winners in Vietnam, Frank Reasoner (Lt, USMC) rescued a guy who was already dead and he died doing it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:55:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD.


You obviously never served.

Monti put himself in a very lethal harm's way three times before he got waxed. I think that is CMOH stuff right there. He knew what he was doing would most likely get himself killed. You might argue that he didn't rack up any kills as he did it, or that he didn't single handedly take on a platoon for hours on end, but I think from the battle report that he was the kind of guy who would have.

I don't have a problem with him getting a MOH.

Oddly, 24 years later, I still have a problem with a certain PV2 who got an ARCOM just for showing up at NTC. We all showed up, and that shitbird just got a random ARCOM, which was hard as hell to get back then. The whole company was pissed.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:56:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.


I think I know better than the obama administration... Does that make me wrong?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 1:58:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By jcarrel:
Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.


I think I know better than the obama administration... Does that make me wrong?

Isn't it congress that decides that?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:00:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By jcarrel:
Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.


I think I know better than the obama administration... Does that make me wrong?

Isn't it congress that decides that?


Actually it goes under a very scrutinizing DOD investigation process (which some say can be swayed by politics others say its only the facts.)

Does anyone have the actual standard for the medal?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:01:18 PM EST
I won't debate whether or not he earned it.

What bothers me about the MOH is that it is only being awarded posthumously.

I KNOW there have got to be Soldiers/Marines/Sailors/Airmen out there who are living and should have been awarded the MOH.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:01:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes.

This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act


Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it.

The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:05:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 2:05:55 PM EST by Lacoochee]
Nope, that sounds absolutely brave compared to this one,




This occurred when the Union Army invaded the Confederacy on the first day in response to the attack on Fort Sumter which in turn had occurred because of the Union Violation of the armistice with South Carolina forbidding resupply of Ft. Sumter.

––––

New York Times –– May 24th, 1861

"The Zouaves landed in good order in double quick time, each company forming in company order on the street facing the river. . . Col. Ellsworth and his detachment proceeded in double quick time up the street. They had proceeded three blocks, when the attention of Colonel Ellsworth was attracted by a large secession flag flying from the Marshall House, kept by J. W. Jackson. Col. Ellsworth entered the hotel, and seeing a man in the hall asked, 'Who put that flag up?' The man answered, 'I don't know; I am a boarder here.' Col. Ellsworth, Lieut. Winser, the chaplain of the regiment, Mr. House, a volunteer aide, and the four privates, went up to the roof and Col. Ellsworth cut down the flag.
The party were [sic] returning down the stairs, preceded by Private Francis E. Brownell, of Company A. As they left the attic, the man who had said he was a boarder, but proved to be the landlord, Jackson, was met in the hall, having a double-barrel gun, which he leveled at Brownell. Brownell struck up the gun with his musket, when Jackson pulled both triggers of the gun. The contents lodged in the body of Col. Ellsworth, entering between the third and fifth ribs. Col. Ellsworth at the time was rolling up the flag. He fell forward on the floor of the hall and expired instantly, only exclaiming 'My God.'

Private Brownell, with the quickness of lightning, leveled his musket at Jackson and fired. The ball struck Jackson on the bridge of the nose, and crashed through his skull, killing him instantly. As he fell Brownell followed his shot by a thrust of his bayonet which went through Jackson's body."




––––––––––––––––––––

He was later awarded the CMH.







Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:07:18 PM EST
This is some crazy talk. The process is pretty darn crazy to get the MOH approved - see the fact that this action was over THREE years ago.

It is interesting to see that this is the fifth or sixth person to be awarded the MOH in eight years of fighting and all have been awarded to warriors who were killed in battle. Gone are the days of repelling hoards of Germans or Japanese or Vietnamese. The enemy of today does not stand and attack American troops - very often. They know to do so is suicide because of the quality of our forces - on the ground, in the air and on the sea.

I also think that medals are a very subjective thing and reading citations only gives you a part of the whole story.

Spooky
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:07:34 PM EST
Brief criteria for the medal

The Medal of Honor is earned in action, at the risk of one’s life. In their provisions for judging whether someone is entitled to the Medal of Honor, the armed services have set up regulations that permit no margin of doubt or error. The deed of the person must:


-be proven by incontestable evidence of at least two eyewitnesses;
-be so outstanding that it clearly distinguishes gallantry beyond the call of duty from lesser forms of bravery;
-involve the risk of life; and
-be the type of deed which, if not done, would not subject the recipient to any justified criticism.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:08:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By SSeric02:
Originally Posted By DLoken:


What? There hasn't been a single MOH awarded to a living person in the last 8 years while fighting two wars. How the fuck can you call that watered down?


I agree, and believe there are some cases of living men who should have received it.


I agree completely. There was a recent article in the Army Times addressing this. Hopefully the times will change and, in the future, valorious acts in which the Soldier/Marine lives will be honored with the CMOH>
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:08:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By PalmettoSharpshooter:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes.

This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act


Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it.

The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one.



The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:10:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By jcarrel:
Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.


I think I know better than the obama administration... Does that make me wrong?

Isn't it congress that decides that?


No. The DOD decides who receives the Medal of Honor. There is no Congressional Medal of Honor,
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:11:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By max229:
It's time to award the medal to a LIVING hero!


I vote Marcus Latrell. Forgive me if I mispelled his name.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:11:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 2:11:37 PM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By ABNAK:
Originally Posted By PalmettoSharpshooter:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes.

This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act


Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it.

The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one.



The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too.


Anyone I talked to while in the military viewed the MOH sorta like the Purple heart. Where nobody seemed to really want to earn it, because if you earned it, 99% of the time, it meant you were dead.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:12:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By ABNAK:
Originally Posted By PalmettoSharpshooter:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes.

This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act


Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it.

The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one.



The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too.



There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:13:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lacoochee:
Nope, that sounds absolutely brave compared to this one,

http://file:///C:/Users/ROBFOW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.pnghttp://file:///C:/Users/ROBFOW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f4/Death_of_Col_Ellsworth.jpg/180px-Death_of_Col_Ellsworth.jpg

This occurred when the Union Army invaded the Confederacy on the first day in response to the attack on Fort Sumter which in turn had occurred because of the Union Violation of the armistice with South Carolina forbidding resupply of Ft. Sumter.

––––

New York Times –– May 24th, 1861

"The Zouaves landed in good order in doublequick time, each company forming in company order on the street facingthe river. . . Col. Ellsworth and his detachment proceeded in doublequick time up the street. They had proceeded three blocks, when theattention of Colonel Ellsworth was attracted by a large secession flagflying from the Marshall House, kept by J. W. Jackson. Col. Ellsworthentered the hotel, and seeing a man in the hall asked, 'Who put thatflag up?' The man answered, 'I don't know; I am a boarder here.' Col.Ellsworth, Lieut. Winser, the chaplain of the regiment, Mr. House, avolunteer aide, and the four privates, went up to the roof and Col.Ellsworth cut down the flag.
The party were [sic] returning downthe stairs, preceded by Private Francis E. Brownell, of Company A. Asthey left the attic, the man who had said he was a boarder, but provedto be the landlord, Jackson, was met in the hall, having adouble-barrel gun, which he leveled at Brownell. Brownell struck up thegun with his musket, when Jackson pulled both triggers of the gun. Thecontents lodged in the body of Col. Ellsworth, entering between thethird and fifth ribs. Col. Ellsworth at the time was rolling up theflag. He fell forward on the floor of the hall and expired instantly,only exclaiming 'My God.'

Private Brownell, with the quickness of lightning, leveled hismusket at Jackson and fired. The ball struck Jackson on the bridge ofthe nose, and crashed through his skull, killing him instantly. As hefell Brownell followed his shot by a thrust of his bayonet which wentthrough Jackson's body."




––––––––––––––––––––

He was later awarded the CMH.









The MOH was the only medal for valor during the civil war, AFAIK. They were literally given out like candy in many cases, they should review any pre-WWI awardings to see if they meet today's standard. Weren't some civil war soldiers awarded it for reenlisting or something ridiculous like that?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:15:13 PM EST
Agreed, a guy from my county got one for the following.......

His unit was defending a wall, the chinese human wave attacked and Private Melvin Brown singlehandedly stayed and defended the wall until he ran out out of ammo as his unit withdrew to safety, upon running out of rifle ammo hae stayed and hurled grenades over the wall until the attack was broken.

What PVt. BRown did was heroic and beyond the call of duty to single handedly fend off a human wave attack.

What Sgt. Monti did, though extremely brave was what is expected of any U.S. Military Person and that is not to leave a comrade behind, in other words it is expected in the course of duty to rescue comrades, it's not above and beyond what is expected. Silver Star, Distinguished service cross alright but not the MOH. Fire Fighters, Cops and EMT's run into danger to rescue lives all the time, does not get us MOF's.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:15:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By lancegardner22:
Originally Posted By max229:
It's time to award the medal to a LIVING hero!


I vote Marcus Latrell. Forgive me if I mispelled his name.


DITTO

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:16:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By Shootist_Jeff:
Originally Posted By ABNAK:
Originally Posted By PalmettoSharpshooter:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes.

This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act


Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it.

The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one.



The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too.



There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO.


I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:18:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 2:24:08 PM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By DLoken:
Originally Posted By Shootist_Jeff:
Originally Posted By ABNAK:
Originally Posted By PalmettoSharpshooter:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes.

This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act


Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it.

The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one.



The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too.



There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO.


I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at.

DSC should be VERY highly respected, that is a very hard medal to get. But I've seen some turds end up getting silver stars. Some Silver star awardees definitely earned it, and some that certainly didn't.

When I was in Iraq, the guys who died got an automatic silver star, which I agree with, and in that light, the silver star does deserves alot of respect. However, other guys got silver star's just for being in Iraq and being of officer rank or SFC or above, and earned it doing they NOTHING valorous. So which I don't think warrants much respect if that is the case for earning it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:18:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 2:20:42 PM EST by 82ND-ABN]
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:18:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By DLoken:
Originally Posted By Lacoochee:
Nope, that sounds absolutely brave compared to this one,

http://file:///C:/Users/ROBFOW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.pnghttp://file:///C:/Users/ROBFOW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f4/Death_of_Col_Ellsworth.jpg/180px-Death_of_Col_Ellsworth.jpg

This occurred when the Union Army invaded the Confederacy on the first day in response to the attack on Fort Sumter which in turn had occurred because of the Union Violation of the armistice with South Carolina forbidding resupply of Ft. Sumter.

––––

New York Times –– May 24th, 1861

"The Zouaves landed in good order in doublequick time, each company forming in company order on the street facingthe river. . . Col. Ellsworth and his detachment proceeded in doublequick time up the street. They had proceeded three blocks, when theattention of Colonel Ellsworth was attracted by a large secession flagflying from the Marshall House, kept by J. W. Jackson. Col. Ellsworthentered the hotel, and seeing a man in the hall asked, 'Who put thatflag up?' The man answered, 'I don't know; I am a boarder here.' Col.Ellsworth, Lieut. Winser, the chaplain of the regiment, Mr. House, avolunteer aide, and the four privates, went up to the roof and Col.Ellsworth cut down the flag.
The party were [sic] returning downthe stairs, preceded by Private Francis E. Brownell, of Company A. Asthey left the attic, the man who had said he was a boarder, but provedto be the landlord, Jackson, was met in the hall, having adouble-barrel gun, which he leveled at Brownell. Brownell struck up thegun with his musket, when Jackson pulled both triggers of the gun. Thecontents lodged in the body of Col. Ellsworth, entering between thethird and fifth ribs. Col. Ellsworth at the time was rolling up theflag. He fell forward on the floor of the hall and expired instantly,only exclaiming 'My God.'

Private Brownell, with the quickness of lightning, leveled hismusket at Jackson and fired. The ball struck Jackson on the bridge ofthe nose, and crashed through his skull, killing him instantly. As hefell Brownell followed his shot by a thrust of his bayonet which wentthrough Jackson's body."




––––––––––––––––––––

He was later awarded the CMH.









The MOH was the only medal for valor during the civil war, AFAIK. They were literally given out like candy in many cases, they should review any pre-WWI awardings to see if they meet today's standard. Weren't some civil war soldiers awarded it for reenlisting or something ridiculous like that?

Yep. According to Wiki:

During the Civil War, Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton promised a Medal of Honor to every man in the 27th Regiment, Maine Infantry who extended his enlistment beyond the agreed upon date. Many stayed four days extra, and then were discharged. Due to confusion, Stanton awarded a Medal of Honor to all 864 men in the regiment.


Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:18:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By capnrob97:

Originally Posted By dirtface:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.

I wasn't commenting on this one in particular, but I think the MOH is getting watered down a bit.

Maybe I am wrong, so be it.


We had a thread not too long ago that said the MOH was not being awarded enough.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:21:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 2:22:21 PM EST by lancegardner22]
nm.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:30:02 PM EST
There actually have been a number of Medals awarded to living recipients in the last decade. They just have been for actions from Vietnam or earlier. Ed Freeman (RIP) and Bruce Crandall are just two of them.

And the Medals that were awarded for non-combat actions were for the most part revoked in the early 20th century.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:41:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 2:42:09 PM EST by The-Bald-Monk]
Originally Posted By DLoken:
SNIP
The MOH was the only medal for valor during the civil war, AFAIK. They were literally given out like candy in many cases, they should review any pre-WWI awardings to see if they meet today's standard. Weren't some civil war soldiers awarded it for reenlisting or something ridiculous like that?[/div]



That has already been done.
DOD has reviewed the process for presenting the MOH several times, ie the purge of 1917 and reviewing discrimination in the awards process the effected minorities (Blacks, Asians and Jews) in WWII, Korea and even Vietnam.

http://www.cmohs.org/medal-history.php

3 JUN 1916
"A board to consist of five general officers on the retired list of the Army shall be convened...for the purpose of investigating and reporting upon past awards or issue of the so-called congressional medal of honor."

16 OCT 1916
The BOARD OF GENERALS authorized in the previous legislation convened under Lt. General Nelson Miles, a Medal recipient from the Civil War. General Miles had taken an active role in promoting legislation to protect the Medal as commander of the Medal of Honor Legion and approached the work of his committee with determination and dedication. Every award of the Army Medal of Honor since the Civil War was reviewed. The recipients were anonymous to the board, represented only by a number.

5 FEB 1917
The Medal of Honor review board released its findings, striking the names of 911 medal recipients from the honor roll. The stricken names included all the medals awarded to the 27th Maine, 29 members of President Lincoln's funeral guard, and six civilians (whose courage the board did not deny, but who were ruled ineligible for the Medal due their civilian status). Five of the civilians were scouts from the Indian Campaigns including Buffalo Bill Cody. The sixth was Civil War Assistant Surgeon Mary Walker. Though she had participated in major campaigns from Bull Run to Chickamauga, even endured three months as a Confederate prisoner of war, her civilian status denied her continued recognition as a Medal of Honor recipient.

9 JUL 1918
The Medal of Honor was born in 1862, but it was the act of 9 July 1918 that defined the future of the award, while further eliminated the Certificate of Merit while establishing the new "Pyramid of Honor" providing for lesser awards (The Distinguished Service Cross, The Distinguished Service Medal, and the Silver Star). A key difference between the levels of awards was spelled out, "That the President is authorized to present, in the name of the Congress, a medal of honor only to each person who, while an officer or enlisted man of the Army, shall hereafter, in action involving actual conflict with an enemy, distinguish himself conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty." The lesser awards were authorized for presentation by the President, "BUT NOT IN THE NAME OF CONGRESS."

10 JUN 1977
Army Secretary Clifford Alexander, Jr. orders the restoration of the Civil War award of the Medal of Honor to Dr. Mary E. Walker. She is the only woman ever awarded the Medal of Honor.

12 JUN 1989
The United States Army restores the Medals of Honor to 5 civilian scouts from the Indian Campaigns, including the award to William "Buffalo Bill" Cody. All 5 awards had been included in the purge of 1917.


Monk
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:41:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By 82ND-ABN:
I wasn't there so as far as I'm concerned, he earned it. I trust our military investigation teams to make a better judgement call than I could while sitting behind my computer screen in a comfy chair.

Everyone is welcome to their opinions but it amounts to nothing more than uninformed pettiness, I'd say.

Men who voice their negative criticisms of genuine heroes are not cut from the same cloth as their targets.


You said it so much better than I did, thanks for that.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:44:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By SonOfNorway:
But he survived so I guess it doesn't count anymore.


This.

I read a story in the Army Times about someone that dove on a grenade and lived. Think he got a MOH? Nope. It's no longer about the act, it's the result that gets the award.
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