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Posted: 1/8/2005 8:56:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 9:02:20 AM EDT by 1Gunner]
I didn't have internet at my home until now but I wondered what you guys would have done, so I'm posting now.

The story takes place in rural southwest Virginia. Twas the Thursday before Christmas and I was at my parents house for the holidays.  I was trying to sleep in my old room on the side of the house to the main road.  About 10:30pm I hear the crack of what I thought is a 22 magnum and a truck speeding away.  This happens often and I thought it was down the road farther, so I didn't think about it until I hear my mom walk down the hall and say to my dad who's also in bed that spotlighters were in the road directly in front of the house.  She was watching TV and all the light inside and outside were out and saw the headlights stop but no spotlight and heard the shot.  I sprung out of bed and threw on jeans a flannel shirt and put on my 1911 holstered w/extra mag.  My dad is almost a pacifist until he gets really mad so I knew I'd have to carry the heat.  Dad with his binoculars and I with the 45 went out to the driveway in darkness and I racked the slide to chamber a round.  This must be about three minutes after the shot.  We waited a few seconds awaiting a vehicle to drive by, maybe, and to see what model it was.  I heard motion in the few inches of hay grass in the large field across from our house and road, about 50 yards away.  Thinking it was the wounded deer we proceeded across the lawn.  Suddenly I see the silouhette of two individuals against the field, it was a moonlit night, about 60 yards away.  I tell Dad, "Hear that, wait is that two people".  Dad - "yeah, I can see them plain as day through these binos".  Me -"Shit, HEY WHO IS THAT SHOOTING?" Dad - "Wait, they just layed down in the field", a few seconds passed not knowing how the night will proceed.  At this moment I was wondering, what would the guys on ARFCOM do, open up on them?, no I'd kill them and be in jail tonight and I don't know if they are armed.  Me as I train my 1911 on the silouhettes and wondering that surely they can hear our entire conversation - "HEY YOU BETTER GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE" a few seconds passed, then a new Ford extended cab comes down the road and stops in front of us standing in the lawn, about 25 yards.  We haul ass towards it, gun trained at the cab, truck speeds off and stops in front of the neighbor's house down the road.  Looking back at the guys in the field they are in a dead sprint now  to the truck and once they hit pavement we hear the boots on the pavement.   To my amazement, Dad takes off after them a couple dozen yards and then runs back saying he's getting the truck to follow them which proved fruitless.  After calling the cops we and the entire neighborhood that is up now my with my yelling find the deer, shot in the neck that dropped where it stood.   We contemplate the utilization of night vision scope and experience of the spotlighters.  The game warden showed up about an hour later to get the deer we pulled the bullet out of the neck.  

Things could have gotten out of hand and I'm glad it turned out like it did, no one was hurt.  The issue with me is, is it better to have done nothing and let them take the deer so it's not wasted or to no let them get away with this.   Plus my wanting to empty a clip on these guys from reading all your SHTF scenarios scared me a little.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:06:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 9:09:40 AM EDT by skippyputz]
And you didn't ask for the deer why?

ETA:  Nice restraint but I wonder about the running outside at night when you know you heard gunshots and you said you were out in the open. Sounds like AFK to me if the BG wanted to really start something.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:08:29 AM EDT
All the freezers in the neighborhood were full.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:08:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 9:09:30 AM EDT by TheKill]
My thoughts, FWIW....

IF you let them be they will continue to trespass.  Sounds like you handled it OK, but you are lucky they didn't mistake you for a deer and shoot you.

Your lack of cover and backup was the biggest issue.  Once you saw that you had trespassers, you should have called the sheriff, and hold/observe.  If you really wanted to pursue the issue, your dad could stay in the yard observing them, while you took a vehicle up to the road to block off the escape route after calling the sheriff.  

Being in the dark is very difficult, and they were probably out there long enough to have adapted to the darkness, meaning they were seeing much better than you.  None of the conditions you describe favored you in this encounter.

Finally, a .45 is better than a stick, but a rifle with a mounted surefire, deployed from suitable cover such as behind an auto, would have wiped out their vision and turned the tables in your favor.  On foot, in the dark, with a handgun and no light you pretty much were at the mercy of the trespassers.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:10:19 AM EDT
Poachers are like any other thief: better with a bullet in 'em.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:11:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheKill:
My thoughts, FWIW....

IF you let them be they will continue to trespass.  Sounds like you handled it OK, but you are lucky they didn't mistake you for a deer and shoot you.

Your lack of cover and backup was the biggest issue.  Once you saw that you had trespassers, you should have called the sheriff, and hold/observe.  If you really wanted to pursue the issue, your dad could stay in the yard observing them, while you took a vehicle up to the road to block off the escape route after calling the sheriff.  

Being in the dark is very difficult, and they were probably out there long enough to have adapted to the darkness, meaning they were seeing much better than you.  None of the conditions you describe favored you in this encounter.

Finally, a .45 is better than a stick, but a rifle with a mounted surefire, deployed from suitable cover such as behind an auto, would have wiped out their vision and turned the tables in your favor.  On foot, in the dark, with a handgun and no light you pretty much were at the mercy of the trespassers.



What he said.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:12:45 AM EDT
Yeah I wondered why you would need a light and laser mounted on an AR15 (that you should always have with you) until now.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:14:04 AM EDT
Poachers
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:21:03 AM EDT
I hunt down there west of Staunton and my friend has a ton of poachers spotlighting deer at night.  His road is a dirt road.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:25:54 AM EDT
Sounds foolhardy to meeeee...
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:27:57 AM EDT
A 1911 against 2 guys with rifles? In the dark?

Damn bud, what were you thinking? You'd have been a damn easy kill. Your Dad even easier.
Tactics were awful: walking up, walking up together, not using cover or concealment...

Better weaponry, better tactics. Maybe get a little training. At least if you have any intent on doing this again. Otherwise stay in your house.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:29:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skippyputz:

Originally Posted By TheKill:
My thoughts, FWIW....

IF you let them be they will continue to trespass.  Sounds like you handled it OK, but you are lucky they didn't mistake you for a deer and shoot you.

Your lack of cover and backup was the biggest issue.  Once you saw that you had trespassers, you should have called the sheriff, and hold/observe.  If you really wanted to pursue the issue, your dad could stay in the yard observing them, while you took a vehicle up to the road to block off the escape route after calling the sheriff.  

Being in the dark is very difficult, and they were probably out there long enough to have adapted to the darkness, meaning they were seeing much better than you.  None of the conditions you describe favored you in this encounter.

Finally, a .45 is better than a stick, but a rifle with a mounted surefire, deployed from suitable cover such as behind an auto, would have wiped out their vision and turned the tables in your favor.  On foot, in the dark, with a handgun and no light you pretty much were at the mercy of the trespassers.



What he said.



+1
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:31:38 AM EDT
A similar event happened at my dad's house last year.  Somebody a couple hundred yards off in a tree stand in OUR woods fired a shot, which evidently missed its target and struck a tree in my dad's back yard.  My dad grabbed his M-16 and I grabbed the megaphone, yelled "GET THE F*** OFF OUR PROPERTY!!!" and my dad emptied a 30-round magazine into the dirt.  There's nothing like full-auto fire to scare the beejesus out of somebody trespassing.  Then we took their tree stand.  That's what he gets for leaving it on the property.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:31:56 AM EDT
I would've preferred a rifle to a pistol
mom shoulda been on the horn to the popo asap as well
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:32:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 9:32:53 AM EDT by jbombelli]
A similar event happened at my dad's house last year.  Somebody a couple hundred yards off in a tree stand in OUR woods fired a shot, which evidently missed its target and struck a tree in my dad's back yard.  My dad grabbed his M-16 and I grabbed the megaphone, yelled "GET THE F*** OFF OUR PROPERTY!!!" and my dad emptied a 30-round magazine into the dirt.  There's nothing like full-auto fire to scare the beejesus out of somebody trespassing.  Then we took their tree stand.  That's what he gets for leaving it on the property.

eta:  please delete this 2nd post...I accidentally posted twice.  My bad.  to all the ARFCOM post police, please forgive me.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:36:26 AM EDT
Well considering the rifle they had was prolly just a .22 WMR your .45 wasn't terribly outgunned.

Shoulda shot the tires out of the Ford and then called the cops.

CRC
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:36:59 AM EDT
You were supposed to bump fire 30 rounds from your AR over their head and then stick your glock in their face.

If you were in a place that you can freely shoot firearms I would have emptied the entire mag from your 45 into the ground.  If nothing else it would have scared the shit out of them and they wouldn't have been back.  If you aren't way out in the country where you can shoot whenever you there wasn't much more you could have done.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:38:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
Well considering the rifle they had was prolly just a .22 WMR your .45 wasn't terribly outgunned.

Shoulda shot the tires out of the Ford and then called the cops.

CRC




Wrong.

I think hit probability with the .22mag in the dark like that is quite a bit better than with the pistol.  But that's just MHO.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:40:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheKill:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Well considering the rifle they had was prolly just a .22 WMR your .45 wasn't terribly outgunned.

Shoulda shot the tires out of the Ford and then called the cops.

CRC




Wrong.

I think hit probability with the .22mag in the dark like that is quite a bit better than with the pistol.  But that's just MHO.



Well if they had a bolt action rifle and you've got a semi-auto pistol I'd reckon you could put 8 rounds downrange much faster.

CRC
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:40:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 9:50:14 AM EDT by 1Gunner]

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
A 1911 against 2 guys with rifles? In the dark?

Damn bud, what were you thinking? You'd have been a damn easy kill. Your Dad even easier.
Tactics were awful: walking up, walking up together, not using cover or concealment...

Better weaponry, better tactics. Maybe get a little training. At least if you have any intent on doing this again. Otherwise stay in your house.



Trust me I was concerned, I was on one knee when not moving.  I also made my Dad get down when his outline was clearly seen by the hill in your lawn.  I agree my tactics were bad, but we did not expect to see anyone when we stood in the driveway.

ETA:  I think the Movement to Contact battle drill kicked in me and I wanted to assault the objective from my national guard days, I couldn't expect my Dad to peform a flanking maneuver though.  That was of course contradicted to my better judgement not to shoot at people in this case, so I was very confused.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:42:08 AM EDT
Sounds like you did good.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:44:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
You were supposed to bump fire 30 rounds from your AR over their head under water and then stick your glock in their face and watch it kaboom.



Fixed!
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:51:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:02:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:

Originally Posted By TheKill:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Well considering the rifle they had was prolly just a .22 WMR your .45 wasn't terribly outgunned.

Shoulda shot the tires out of the Ford and then called the cops.

CRC




Wrong.

I think hit probability with the .22mag in the dark like that is quite a bit better than with the pistol.  But that's just MHO.



Well if they had a bolt action rifle and you've got a semi-auto pistol I'd reckon you could put 8 rounds downrange much faster.

CRC



True dat.  But there is a lot of air around that target, and my opinion is that the with semi-auto the first miss usually begets more misses.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:04:40 AM EDT
my take from a guy who has BTDT...

Er,,,,, on the other side of the fence..hmmmmmm

call the law and let them handle it..alot of serious poachers..are not the people you really want to mess with in a shooting situation...especially at night.

BTW..

trespassing is no issue to involve yourself in a gun fight..you put yourself in serious harm by attempting to approach ..men/boys known to be armed..with rifles..

nothing good can come from that.

call johnny law...and the GW's and let them handle it..

then sit back and watch.

back home...alot of people jacklight...for food...and some jacklight for money...some are preppy kids...out because they are bored...

some are some serious MFr's... who really arent to be messed with...

i know your pissed...but be realistic...
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:07:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By muddydog:
my take from a guy who has BTDT...

Er,,,,, on the other side of the fence..hmmmmmm

call the law and let them handle it..alot of serious poachers..are not the people you really want to mess with in a shooting situation...especially at night.

BTW..

trespassing is no issue to involve yourself in a gun fight..you put yourself in serious harm by attempting to approach ..men/boys known to be armed..with rifles..

nothing good can come from that.

call johnny law...and the GW's and let them handle it..

then sit back and watch.

back home...alot of people jacklight...for food...and some jacklight for money...some are preppy kids...out because they are bored...

some are some serious MFr's... who really arent to be messed with...

i know your pissed...but be realistic...



Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:19:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 10:24:10 AM EDT by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
A laser beam settling down on the tresspassers would have made the point quite clearly.  Laser sights certainly have their uses!





No flame, cmj, but I think that is an awful idea. A surefire is one thing, a laser might open you up to being justifiably shot, even by a poacher. State laws vary on this and it might be worth looking into for VA in this case.
I also think lasers give away your own position more than anything at night and I wouldn't have one on any of my weapons. That's MO though. Lights, nightsights, yeah. Lasers? No way.

My own feeling on this is that if I am putting the sight on another human I am pulling the trigger or I'm not doing so. This scaring a perpetrator off by pointing your gun at him is bullshit. Anyone who pushes it to that level is getting dropped.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:26:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
A laser beam settling down on the tresspassers would have made the point quite clearly.  Laser sights certainly have their uses!





No flame, cmj, but I think that is an awful idea. A surefire is one thing, a laser might open you up to being justifiably shot, even by a poacher. State laws vary on this and it might be worth looking into for VA in this case.
I also think lasers give away your own position more than anything at night and I wouldn't have one on any of my weapons. That's MO though. Lights, nightsights, yeah. Lasers? No way.

My own feeling on this is that if I am putting the sight on another human I am pulling the trigger or I'm not doing so. This scaring a perpetrator off by pointing your gun at him is bullshit. Anyone who pushes it to that level is getting dropped.



He's got a point here. Gun pointed at me would make me feel VERY threatened/uncomfortable even if I was in the wrong to begin with.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:28:53 AM EDT
Rural SW VA?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:30:14 AM EDT
Yeah I could have left out rural, it's assumed.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:31:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
A 1911 against 2 guys with rifles? In the dark?

Damn bud, what were you thinking? You'd have been a damn easy kill. Your Dad even easier.
Tactics were awful: walking up, walking up together, not using cover or concealment...

Better weaponry, better tactics. Maybe get a little training. At least if you have any intent on doing this again. Otherwise stay in your house.



Trust me I was concerned, I was on one knee when not moving.  I also made my Dad get down when his outline was clearly seen by the hill in your lawn.  I agree my tactics were bad, but we did not expect to see anyone when we stood in the driveway.

ETA:  I think the Movement to Contact battle drill kicked in me and I wanted to assault the objective from my national guard days, I couldn't expect my Dad to peform a flanking maneuver though.  That was of course contradicted to my better judgement not to shoot at people in this case, so I was very confused.



All the more reason why you shouldn't have been out there in the first place. You had better consider your tactics if this occurs again and make sure you have a sure plan of action prior to going out.

Hard to get a sense of what your layout an terrain is like but I'd have come out the back and used the corner of your house for cover. You on one side, Dad on the other. Both armed. Light of somekind would've been nice provided you have cover, and watch your back. It took a helluva lot of nerve to do this so close to a house and these guys may be back in the area. Either they are stupid or gutsy or both.

AND--Watch your six. You never know who else is out there.
Another good reason for you and Dad not to be standing next to each other.

It would be a shame to get shot over a deer by a couple of assholes like this.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:32:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
Yeah I could have left out rural, it's assumed.



No, what do you consider "rural" and "SW VA"?

The outskirts of Salem?  BFE in the mountains of Carroll Co?

Clinchco?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:34:58 AM EDT
Below Carrol Co. in Patrick Co., East of Martinsville on the NC line. It was some NC F*ers who shoot deer and sell it to restaurants for $35 each, even that's illegal as hell to sell game meat.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:40:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jbombelli:
A similar event happened at my dad's house last year.  Somebody a couple hundred yards off in a tree stand in OUR woods fired a shot, which evidently missed its target and struck a tree in my dad's back yard.  My dad grabbed his M-16 and I grabbed the megaphone, yelled "GET THE F*** OFF OUR PROPERTY!!!" and my dad emptied a 30-round magazine into the dirt.  There's nothing like full-auto fire to scare the beejesus out of somebody trespassing.  Then we took their tree stand.  That's what he gets for leaving it on the property.

Beautiful!
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:43:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
Below Carrol Co. in Patrick Co., East of Martinsville on the NC line. It was some NC F*ers who shoot deer and sell it to restaurants for $35 each, even that's illegal as hell to sell game meat.



Not to nitpick, but that IMO isn't even SW VA.

Southside or southern.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:45:20 AM EDT
After reading this and a few other similar tales of seasonal trespassers, if I lived on such land I'd spend the couple hundred dollars to wire the place up like the Omega Man. Sodium floodlamps. a cheap-ass distributed speaker system. Throw two switches and their hunt on MY land is ruined.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:46:55 AM EDT
btw, no one has commented on it yet - by the description of the shooters silence and apparent coordination with the truck, they likely had some radio sets.  And that to the long column of disadvantages the topic-starter was probably facing.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rayra:
btw, no one has commented on it yet - by the description of the shooters silence and apparent coordination with the truck, they likely had some radio sets.  And that to the long column of disadvantages the topic-starter was probably facing.



No, that's pretty much standard procedure for spotlighting.  Three or four people in the truck.  After the shot, two people will jump out to retrieve the deer.  The truck will drive around for a while, then come back by to retrieve the deer and people.

No need to read more into than there is.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:56:17 AM EDT
i would have confronted them, same way you did
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:02:30 AM EDT


 That sort of thing happens all the time on the back roads of W.Va.  

  Not that it really bothers too many of the folks there that I know.  (They hate all deer)


 Most of them would just call the Game Warden rather than confront. (If it bothered them)

You start some shit with somebody out there and sooner or later your house will burn down.  

 

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:06:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 11:09:06 AM EDT by KOW]
Does the name Vang from Wisconsin mean anything to you now ?  You were lucky !
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:08:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KOW:
Does the name Vang from Michigan mean anything to you now ?  You were lucky !



It was actually in Wisconsin and Vang is from St. Paul, MN. But we get the idea!
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:08:20 AM EDT

Happy you made it out of the situation safely.  I would have.

1. Armed myself.
2. Called the Police/Sheriff
3. Stayed inside, with lights off to better observe.

YES they were trespassing, yes they were poaching.  But is that worth risking your life over?  Especially when you are so inadaquately armed?

Chris
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:16:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 11:17:38 AM EDT by Dolomite]

then a new Ford extended cab comes down the road and stops in front of us standing in the lawn, about 25 yards. We haul ass towards it, gun trained at the cab,


"What I couldn't see was that the truck belonged to the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries - they were responding to a call about two men running around area, and at least one of them was reportedly armed.

The warden, seeing someone sprinting from out of the darkness towards him with a raised 1911, relied on his training and department policy, and as expected, dumped two rounds from his weapon into my chest."
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:21:36 AM EDT
.308 to the engine block.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:22:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:22:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:

"What I couldn't see was that the truck belonged to the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries - they were responding to a call about two men running around area, and at least one of them was reportedly armed.

The warden, seeing someone sprinting from out of the darkness towards him with a raised 1911, relied on his training and department policy, and as expected, dumped two rounds from his weapon into my chest."




  You don't shoot at anyone or anything unless you know exactly who or what you are shooting.

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:29:01 AM EDT
hind sight is 20/20, you dealt with it the best you could considering your waking state and eagerness to potentially light some bad guy up.

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:32:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 11:33:31 AM EDT by Dolomite]

Originally Posted By Oslow:

Originally Posted By Dolomite:

then a new Ford extended cab comes down the road and stops in front of us standing in the lawn, about 25 yards. We haul ass towards it, gun trained at the cab,


"What I couldn't see was that the truck belonged to the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries - they were responding to a call about two men running around area, and at least one of them was reportedly armed.

The warden, seeing someone sprinting from out of the darkness towards him with a raised 1911, relied on his training and department policy, and as expected, dumped two rounds from his weapon into my chest."



  You don't shoot at anyone or anything unless you know exactly who or what you are shooting.


Oh sure - in theory.  Nonetheless, GW drops 1Gunner, at worst he's looking at a 72 hour suspension - whereas we'll have to read a 10 page thread from his family asking for prayers.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 12:00:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:

then a new Ford extended cab comes down the road and stops in front of us standing in the lawn, about 25 yards. We haul ass towards it, gun trained at the cab,


"What I couldn't see was that the truck belonged to the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries - they were responding to a call about two men running around area, and at least one of them was reportedly armed.

The warden, seeing someone sprinting from out of the darkness towards him with a raised 1911, relied on his training and department policy, and as expected, dumped two rounds from his weapon into my chest."



VDGIF wardens don't exactly respond to those types of calls.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 12:11:01 PM EDT
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