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Posted: 9/12/2005 1:54:12 PM EDT
I heard about this on the radio--didn't want to believe it, googled it, and here it is...
I am not sure of the credibility of the site, but after all that is going on w/ NO, this is no suprise--just more anger...

www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=361980&in_page_id=1770

Doctors working in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans killed critically ill patients rather than leaving them to die in agony as they evacuated hospitals, The Mail on Sunday can reveal.
With gangs of rapists and looters rampaging through wards in the flooded city, senior doctors took the harrowing decision to give massive overdoses of morphine to those they believed could not make it out alive.

In an extraordinary interview with The Mail on Sunday, one New Orleans doctor told how she 'prayed for God to have mercy on her soul' after she ignored every tenet of medical ethics and ended the lives of patients she had earlier fought to save.

Her heart-rending account has been corroborated by a hospital orderly and by local government officials. One emergency official, William 'Forest' McQueen, said: "Those who had no chance of making it were given a lot of morphine and lain down in a dark place to die."

Euthanasia is illegal in Louisiana, and The Mail on Sunday is protecting the identities of the medical staff concerned to prevent them being made scapegoats for the events of last week.

Their families believe their confessions are an indictment of the appalling failure of American authorities to help those in desperate need after Hurricane Katrina flooded the city, claiming thousands of lives and making 500,000 homeless.

'These people were going to die anyway'

The doctor said: "I didn't know if I was doing the right thing. But I did not have time. I had to make snap decisions, under the most appalling circumstances, and I did what I thought was right.

"I injected morphine into those patients who were dying and in agony. If the first dose was not enough, I gave a double dose. And at night I prayed to God to have mercy on my soul."

The doctor, who finally fled her hospital late last week in fear of being murdered by the armed looters, said: "This was not murder, this was compassion. They would have been dead within hours, if not days. We did not put people down. What we did was give comfort to the end.

"I had cancer patients who were in agony. In some cases the drugs may have speeded up the death process.

"We divided patients into three categories: those who were traumatised but medically fit enough to survive, those who needed urgent care, and the dying.

"People would find it impossible to understand the situation. I had to make life-or-death decisions in a split second.

"It came down to giving people the basic human right to die with dignity.

"There were patients with Do Not Resuscitate signs. Under normal circumstances, some could have lasted several days. But when the power went out, we had nothing.

"Some of the very sick became distressed. We tried to make them as comfortable as possible.

"The pharmacy was under lockdown because gangs of armed looters were roaming around looking for their fix. You have to understand these people were going to die anyway."

Mr McQueen, a utility manager for the town of Abita Springs, half an hour north of New Orleans, told relatives that patients had been 'put down', saying: "They injected them, but nurses stayed with them until they died."

Mr McQueen has been working closely with emergency teams and added: "They had to make unbearable decisions."

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:56:36 PM EDT
Thank the Mayor & Governor (for not ordering looters shot on sight) for this mess.

And they want to confiscate firearms from homeowners???


Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:59:06 PM EDT
it is sad that the identities of those Doctors need to be protected

This fits the definition of a mercy killing if anything ever did.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:03:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 2:04:30 PM EDT by xinflt]

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Thank the Mayor & Governor (for not ordering looters shot on sight evacuating them when they had the chance) for this mess.

And they want to confiscate firearms from homeowners???





fixed

Edit: Although I do agree that the looters should have been shot, as well.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:04:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 2:06:09 PM EDT by DuBri]
Hats off to them, there are just some jobs that the general population is not fit for and thus cannot understand. IE coroners, hospice workers, etc. I am disturbed at this growing trend to keep people alive at all costs just because science has given us the capabiltiy, without concern for the physical and emotional tole it will take on those providing the care, the family, and most importantly the dying themselves. If the ball hadnt been dropped so badly these people would have been evac'd in the days prior to the storm hitting, but if your breathing depends on a 120 v wall plug being operational you arent prospective for recovery (ie dying of combined old age, cancer, etc), you arent truly alive and free now are you? Like the lady said, leave them to die without their life prolonging medical treatment and leave them to the ruffians, or give them some morphine and let them slip away a few days or hours early. THIS IS NOT ABORTION THIS IS LETTING SOMEONE DIE WITH DIGNITY, digntiy being something in short supply these days as people center their lives around government and private handouts to sustain their way of life, aiding in all this madness in the first place.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:04:34 PM EDT
Its a fucking bad situation all around.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:06:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
it is sad that the identities of those Doctors need to be protected

This fits the definition of a mercy killing if anything ever did.




The Docters did a great thing!!

I would hope they would do that for me when I am dying
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:09:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DuBri:
Hats off to them, there are just some jobs that the general population is not fit for and thus cannot understand. IE coroners, hospice workers, etc. I am disturbed at this growing trend to keep people alive at all costs just because science has given us the capabiltiy, without concern for the physical and emotional tole it will take on those providing the care, the family, and most importantly the dying themselves. If the ball hadnt been dropped so badly these people would have been evac'd in the days prior to the storm hitting, but if your breathing depends on a 120 v wall plug being operational you arent prospective for recovery (ie dying of combined old age, cancer, etc), you arent truly alive and free now are you? Like the lady said, leave them to die without their life prolonging medical treatment and leave them to the ruffians, or give them some morphine and let them slip away a few days or hours early. THIS IS NOT ABORTION THIS IS LETTING SOMEONE DIE WITH DIGNITY, digntiy being something in short supply these days as people center their lives around government and private handouts to sustain their way of life, aiding in all this madness in the first place.



That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:09:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosieWales:

Originally Posted By Dino:
it is sad that the identities of those Doctors need to be protected

This fits the definition of a mercy killing if anything ever did.




The Docters did a great thing!!

I would hope they would do that for me when I am dying



from the Hippocratic Oath

"...never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:10:29 PM EDT
Sometimes a man gotta do what a man gotta do...
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:17:59 PM EDT
If this is true, those doctors need to be prosecuted. There
is a BIG difference between "DNR" and "Kill me because
you are scared of looters."
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:21:53 PM EDT
Murder is the charge.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:22:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Piss off moron this is NOT the same thing as Nazi Germany. We are talking about terminal patients who could not live for any sustained period of time without constant medical care, not perfectly healthy people who just have different religious beliefs. Without said medical care their bodies will slowly but surely waste away, and when the power went out and the city flooded their prospects were NILL. Authorities had no control at that point, violent criminals roamed the streets. It is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment to let someone die slowly who has done no ill yet has no prospect for recovery or evacuation. Hell just moving a lot of those people would probably be liable to kill them. You ever watch a relative be revived time and again by modern medecine to slowly waste away and become a hollow dispairing shell of their former self? Its a lot of fun. If their life was cut short by days or hours and they died in a blissfull sleep rather than in intense agony I'd say they were a lot better off. Tossing nazi references around to relate to this specific situation is inflamatory and utterly absurd, and people in GD here seem ready to do just that at the drop of a hat. When you are 85 and have cancer, alzheimers etc. Have fun being half concious in agonizing pain hooked upto life support for a few weeks until they finaly cant keep you alive any longer. I'll get back to you on that in the afterlife and you can let me know how it was okay?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:24:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Originally Posted By xinflt:
from the Hippocratic Oath
"...never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."



So your advocating that the doctors allow people to die slowly and in horrible pain as opposed to giving them massive doses of painkiller?

In emergency situations, sometimes there is only a choice between 2 bad options.

My grandmother was revived 2x before we put a DNR order on her charts. They broke 4 of her ribs and collapsed one lung in the process. She never regained consciousness at any time. My parents and I both feel guilty ... about not signing the DNR sooner.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:26:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DuBri:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Piss off moron..........blah, blah, blah, blah.............. I'll get back to you on that in the afterlife and you can let me know how it was okay?



Ranting and name calling still can't make it less than murder. The end does not justify the means.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:26:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DuBri:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Piss off moron this is NOT the same thing as Nazi Germany. We are talking about terminal patients who could not live for any sustained period of time without constant medical care, not perfectly healthy people who just have different religious beliefs. Without said medical care their bodies will slowly but surely waste away, and when the power went out and the city flooded their prospects were NILL. Authorities had no control at that point, violent criminals roamed the streets. It is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment to let someone die slowly who has done no ill yet has no prospect for recovery or evacuation. Hell just moving a lot of those people would probably be liable to kill them. You ever watch a relative be revived time and again by modern medecine to slowly waste away and become a hollow dispairing shell of their former self? Its a lot of fun. If their life was cut short by days or hours and they died in a blissfull sleep rather than in intense agony I'd say they were a lot better off. Tossing nazi references around to relate to this specific situation is inflamatory and utterly absurd, and people in GD here seem ready to do just that at the drop of a hat. When you are 85 and have cancer, alzheimers etc. Have fun being half concious in agonizing pain hooked upto life support for a few weeks until they finaly cant keep you alive any longer. I'll get back to you on that in the afterlife and you can let me know how it was okay?



So the doctors making the decision absent any immediate family input is OK with you? Very different situation than a DNR in response to a living will. My analogy stands. Some of you folks are really quick to flip the switch on folks. Must be a symptom of an amoral educational system.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:30:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Originally Posted By xinflt:
from the Hippocratic Oath
"...never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."



So your advocating that the doctors allow people to die slowly and in horrible pain as opposed to giving them massive doses of painkiller? The end does not justify the means. Any way you slice it, it's murder.

In emergency situations, sometimes there is only a choice between 2 bad options. They made the wrong choice.

My grandmother was revived 2x before we put a DNR order on her charts. They broke 4 of her ribs and collapsed one lung in the process. She never regained consciousness at any time. My parents and I both feel guilty ... about not signing the DNR sooner. You have my sympathy, but I fail to see how this relates. The doctors and nurses weren't trying to intentionally kill your grandmother.


Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:33:01 PM EDT

As anyone from the UK can tell you, the Daily Mail is a TABLOID.
Think Elvis had alien babies newspapers in the grocery line.
Do NOT believe averything printed in it.
The prospect of this story being true is in my opinion preposterous.

DaddyDett
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:34:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

Originally Posted By DuBri:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Piss off moron this is NOT the same thing as Nazi Germany. We are talking about terminal patients who could not live for any sustained period of time without constant medical care, not perfectly healthy people who just have different religious beliefs. Without said medical care their bodies will slowly but surely waste away, and when the power went out and the city flooded their prospects were NILL. Authorities had no control at that point, violent criminals roamed the streets. It is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment to let someone die slowly who has done no ill yet has no prospect for recovery or evacuation. Hell just moving a lot of those people would probably be liable to kill them. You ever watch a relative be revived time and again by modern medecine to slowly waste away and become a hollow dispairing shell of their former self? Its a lot of fun. If their life was cut short by days or hours and they died in a blissfull sleep rather than in intense agony I'd say they were a lot better off. Tossing nazi references around to relate to this specific situation is inflamatory and utterly absurd, and people in GD here seem ready to do just that at the drop of a hat. When you are 85 and have cancer, alzheimers etc. Have fun being half concious in agonizing pain hooked upto life support for a few weeks until they finaly cant keep you alive any longer. I'll get back to you on that in the afterlife and you can let me know how it was okay?



So the doctors making the decision absent any immediate family input is OK with you? Very different situation than a DNR in response to a living will. My analogy stands. Some of you folks are really quick to flip the switch on folks. Must be a symptom of an amoral educational system.



I don't think what the doctors did was a good decision, but sometimes there are no options for good decisions, only bad ones. I don't feel right about taking someone's life without expressed permission (although I do believe in assissted suicide, thats different IMHO), however the choice was to watch them die slowly or end their suffering. I think either courses of action would be morally wrong to a degree, but I don't fault the doctors for the decision they made. I know had I been a patient I would have welcomed it.

On the otherhand, if the patients wishes were clear, I believe doing anything other than to follow them to be a much greater wrong.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:34:51 PM EDT
Frightening.

Folks that think this is a good thing are out of their minds.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:36:47 PM EDT
blah blah blah....i think we would have to have a lot more information to be taking sides on this guys. C'mon already.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:38:12 PM EDT
Never happened. Consider the source and move along.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:38:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:
Do NOT believe everything printed in it.



In fact, don't believe anything printed in it. It is good for a nice laugh, though. I think Elvis' alien babies were discovered on the far side of the moon, BTW.

Alpine
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:40:09 PM EDT
I read somewhere that many terminally ill patients had do not resuscitate instructions on their beds. I have a living will that says the same thing. No heroic measures, let me die with dignity.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:40:54 PM EDT
Yes and nor were the doctors INTENTIONALLY trying to kill the terminal patients in the flooded hospitals. They were already going to die and it was merely a choice between watching them die on their own or letting them do it in peace and without suffering. What part of this dont you understand? Under different circumstances YES you could prolong them for the sake of visiting with family, living another day, etc. This was not a situation from which they were going to get out of. Contacting their family? Via what source, carrier pidgeon? Why are people so hell bent on prolonging the inevitable. Im not saying abort fetuses, I'm saying let terminal patients die. Would you rather find out that your mother suffocated when the battery backup failed on her ventilator ran out of juice, or that she was toyed with by some psycho escaped convicts before they killed her in some sick manner, or that she caught a wretched infection being floated through the streets on a board in a vein attempt to move her to safety? Vs. morphine OD. Have some friggin compassion people. It sucks but the whole thing was a cluster fuck, and the doctors had to choose between the lesser of two evils for patients whome they no longer had the resources to sustain. In a perfect world we wouldnt get old and die, or catch disease, etc etc. Well guess what
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:42:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xinflt:

Originally Posted By DuBri:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Piss off moron..........blah, blah, blah, blah.............. I'll get back to you on that in the afterlife and you can let me know how it was okay?



Ranting and name calling still can't make it less than murder. The end does not justify the means.

the end? I am not sure what you are getting at with that statement. The end of life is death, regardless of the means. I think the doctors did the right thing. But then again, I think the doctors did the right thing in the Teri Schaivo decision as well. If I was guaranteed to die this week I would rather OD on morphine than sit in a hot and humid hospital in unimaginable pain just to die a couple days later.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:43:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DuBri:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Piss off moron <snip>



A bit harsh don't you think? It's just one man's opinion...kind of like yours.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:44:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:
As anyone from the UK can tell you, the Daily Mail is a TABLOID.
Think Elvis had alien babies newspapers in the grocery line.
Do NOT believe averything printed in it.
The prospect of this story being true is in my opinion preposterous.

DaddyDett



the daily mail is not that bad, tabloids don't have such low/no standards in the UK as they do here.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:47:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xinflt:

Originally Posted By JosieWales:

Originally Posted By Dino:
it is sad that the identities of those Doctors need to be protected

This fits the definition of a mercy killing if anything ever did.




The Docters did a great thing!!

I would hope they would do that for me when I am dying



from the Hippocratic Oath

"...never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."



First Do No Harm... They rescued folks from unbearable Pain and Sufferring
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:48:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:

Originally Posted By xinflt:

Originally Posted By DuBri:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Piss off moron..........blah, blah, blah, blah.............. I'll get back to you on that in the afterlife and you can let me know how it was okay?



Ranting and name calling still can't make it less than murder. The end does not justify the means.

the end? I am not sure what you are getting at with that statement. The end of life is death, regardless of the means. I think the doctors did the right thing. But then again, I think the doctors did the right thing in the Teri Schaivo decision as well. If I was guaranteed to die this week I would rather OD on morphine than sit in a hot and humid hospital in unimaginable pain just to die a couple days later.



Simple. The end=death. The means=murder. Wanting to die does not justify murder.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:49:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xinflt:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Originally Posted By xinflt:
from the Hippocratic Oath
"...never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."



So your advocating that the doctors allow people to die slowly and in horrible pain as opposed to giving them massive doses of painkiller? The end does not justify the means. Any way you slice it, it's murder.

In emergency situations, sometimes there is only a choice between 2 bad options. They made the wrong choice.

My grandmother was revived 2x before we put a DNR order on her charts. They broke 4 of her ribs and collapsed one lung in the process. She never regained consciousness at any time. My parents and I both feel guilty ... about not signing the DNR sooner. You have my sympathy, but I fail to see how this relates. The doctors and nurses weren't trying to intentionally kill your grandmother.





Well, I sure hope they "Murder" Me
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:50:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 2:50:51 PM EDT by xinflt]

Originally Posted By JosieWales:

Originally Posted By xinflt:

Originally Posted By JosieWales:

Originally Posted By Dino:
it is sad that the identities of those Doctors need to be protected

This fits the definition of a mercy killing if anything ever did.




The Docters did a great thing!!

I would hope they would do that for me when I am dying



from the Hippocratic Oath

"...never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."



First Do No Harm... They rescued folks from unbearable Pain and Sufferring



In my world, to murder someone can be considered "causing them harm." I guess you and I will have to disagree on this one.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:50:50 PM EDT
Sorry if I'm harsh but I take the issue very seriously, as I watch people I know opt for the slow painful way. In a sense its their choice, but its also a result of societies expectation of them to accept the treatment. They feel that they have to, for their family, since this is all the see on tv and the news media etc. Saying DNR is for quitters, and nobody likes a quitter. Old people are already quite vulnerable in that they often aim to please, and get to the point they cant make rational decisions anyway. Why else would there be such things as power of attorney, etc etc. Amoral schooling? How about learning to live with the fact that we are going to die, and enjoy life while we can rather than spend our days worrying about our demise and how to fend it off for another day?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:52:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DuBri:
Sorry if I'm harsh......



No worries. This is a tough topic with passionate opinions.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:53:07 PM EDT
Get a grip, boys.

It's just .
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:53:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosieWales:

Originally Posted By Dino:
it is sad that the identities of those Doctors need to be protected

This fits the definition of a mercy killing if anything ever did.




The Docters did a great thing!!

I would hope they would do that for me when I am dying


+1, but I had to think about it for a while before I came to that conclusion.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:55:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Get a grip, boys.

It's just .



Most likely so...
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:05:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Get a grip, boys.

It's just .



+1
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:08:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xinflt:

Originally Posted By JosieWales:

Originally Posted By xinflt:

Originally Posted By JosieWales:

Originally Posted By Dino:
it is sad that the identities of those Doctors need to be protected

This fits the definition of a mercy killing if anything ever did.




The Docters did a great thing!!

I would hope they would do that for me when I am dying



from the Hippocratic Oath

"...never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."



First Do No Harm... They rescued folks from unbearable Pain and Sufferring



In my world, to murder someone can be considered "causing them harm." I guess you and I will have to disagree on this one.



Not cut and dryed; When is killing Murder?
Tough call
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:10:25 PM EDT
Heard from our EMS CME teacher that our local medical Evac helo had sent it's backup chopper down there to evac from hospitals.

They were one their way back froun Houston to NoLo (flight #6? 9?) to pick up 6 neonates for evac from a hospital that lost power when they were called off, apparently told by ATC that NoLo evac was now a military op, and their services were not needed.

Nobody picked up the neonates.



No power for incubators and ventilators, and they were already on battery power.


2 + 2 = ?







Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:11:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 3:13:33 PM EDT by joker581]
It is most likely bullshit.

That being said, I have little sympathy for doctors and nurses who kill the people they are entrusted to care for, rather than actually doing their jobs. Certainly there are times when such actions may be justified, like the one depicted in Schindler's List, in which doctors and nurses euthanized patiants who were going to be machine gunned.

However, that does not seem to be the case described here. Obviously those on life support such as ventilators would be candidates for a morphine overdose. Making someone comfortable while they await the inevitable is not only humane but ethically acceptable. Giving a hot shot of morphine to anyone who will slow down your escape is unethical, not to mention illegal.

There have been reports of nursing homes found containing dozens of bodies. I find it rather upsetting that doctors and nurses fled leaving numerous people helpless. I realize that many would have died trying to escape, but at least they would have had a chance. I saw news coverage of at least one 105-year-old woman being evacuated.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:12:06 PM EDT
I call BS.

This is a British newspaper, how the hell would they know before another newspaper?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:19:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 3:22:26 PM EDT by jblachly]

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:
As anyone from the UK can tell you, the Daily Mail is a TABLOID.
Think Elvis had alien babies newspapers in the grocery line.
Do NOT believe averything printed in it.
The prospect of this story being true is in my opinion preposterous.

DaddyDett



This bears repeating.

My take on the situation is probably not that the doctors gave so much morphine as to OD and kill the patients, but rather gave them enough to really zonk them out and let them die in peace on roughly the same timeline they would have done without the drugs, except in the latter case in a lot of agony.

That is to say, with no electricity and no resources, the patients were going to die -- period. They could either do it screaming in agony, or off in la-la land. The doctors chose the latter.



AND as a bonus comment: Medical graduates no longer take the Hippocratic oath at ANY US Medical school (as far as I'm aware) because of this line:

Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:39:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fourays2:

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:
As anyone from the UK can tell you, the Daily Mail is a TABLOID.
Think Elvis had alien babies newspapers in the grocery line.
Do NOT believe averything printed in it.
The prospect of this story being true is in my opinion preposterous.

DaddyDett



the daily mail is not that bad, tabloids don't have such low/no standards in the UK as they do here.



Don't bet on it.
The Daily Mail is sued very regularly.
It's no better than the Sun or any of that lot.
At least the Sun has page 3 girls.
I used to check em out daily at RAF Lakenheath, when I was stationed there.

DaddyDett

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:59:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:
As anyone from the UK can tell you, the Daily Mail is a TABLOID.
Think Elvis had alien babies newspapers in the grocery line.
Do NOT believe averything printed in it.
The prospect of this story being true is in my opinion preposterous.

DaddyDett


Well your opinion is factually wrong. It has been reported on the news here already and it did happen in more than one place with those who witnessed it being interviewed. Under extreme emergency conditions, with many casualties, the focus must be put on those with the best chances of survival. Triage in mass casualty incidents is not a fun nor enjoyable thing and those suffering terminally need to be treated in the most expedient and humane means possible. Sometimes this means making their last minutes or hours here as pain free as possible with large amounts of morphine. Theres nothing new about it, it happens everyday all over the world. Tough conditions call for tough decisions and those who can go on to live because a doctor was available to them instead of a terminal suffering patient are better served.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:02:33 PM EDT
even if it were true, it's just triage.....
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:16:22 PM EDT
All I know is, if my mom was in that hospital, and some doctor took it upon himself to pull the plug on her without talking to me, that doctor would be in big trouble.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:02:34 PM EDT
The VA was able to evacuate all of their patients from all the VA hospitals in the storm affected areas. They didn't need to do in a single vet.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:20:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:
AND as a bonus comment: Medical graduates no longer take the Hippocratic oath at ANY US Medical school (as far as I'm aware) because of this line:

Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy.





Hippocratic Oath has changed over the years:

Classical Version:


I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.




Modern Version


I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:28:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
All I know is, if my mom was in that hospital, and some doctor took it upon himself to pull the plug on her without talking to me, that doctor would be in big trouble.



Roger that. Assuming there is any truth to this story, I think it is along the lines of what
jblachly posted.

I'm not injecting an intentional overdose into anyone. I'll do whatever I can for them and let the chips fall where they may.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:36:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

Originally Posted By DuBri:
Hats off to them, there are just some jobs that the general population is not fit for and thus cannot understand. IE coroners, hospice workers, etc. I am disturbed at this growing trend to keep people alive at all costs just because science has given us the capabiltiy, without concern for the physical and emotional tole it will take on those providing the care, the family, and most importantly the dying themselves. If the ball hadnt been dropped so badly these people would have been evac'd in the days prior to the storm hitting, but if your breathing depends on a 120 v wall plug being operational you arent prospective for recovery (ie dying of combined old age, cancer, etc), you arent truly alive and free now are you? Like the lady said, leave them to die without their life prolonging medical treatment and leave them to the ruffians, or give them some morphine and let them slip away a few days or hours early. THIS IS NOT ABORTION THIS IS LETTING SOMEONE DIE WITH DIGNITY, digntiy being something in short supply these days as people center their lives around government and private handouts to sustain their way of life, aiding in all this madness in the first place.



That's what they thought in Germany in 1939.




Exactly-+1
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