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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/4/2004 12:24:17 AM EST
It seems that the sort of thing we saw in Russia would be hard to defend against if the terrorist team makes it to the objective. From reports, it seems as if the terrorists in the school and theater hostage situations numbered around 30. That's more than can be defended against by a few security guards at the objective itself. The terrorists can probably simply drive a car or truck onto the objective with all the supplies they need during or immediately after the initial assault, so they're not limited to concealable weapons or even what they can carry. They can haul in explosives, wire, ammo, food, water, whatever they need.

An assault by the police would be very difficult. Not many police departments are going to have a SWAT team capable of dealing with that. The FBI and maybe the military could eventually be flown in within several hours, but that gives the terrorists time to consolodate. After the initial assault and consolodation the police would have problems doing a rapid takedown with so many people on the other side. That's a problem when the building is wired with explosives and the hostages herded together. Police SWAT teams are optimized for takedowns of individuals and small groups in geographically limited buildings, not what amounts to open warfare.

There are probably more effective tactics for al Qaeda to spread chaos in the US given their limited resources, but they're also not noted for deep thinking.

How could US police & military deal with something like that in the US? Say, a school takeover or a Broadway theater takeover?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:01:03 AM EST
Contain, wait for HRT or CAG. This type of scenario is beyond the capabilities of most SWAT Teams, and most hostage incidents usually only have one hostage taker. We typically train for scenarios with multiple suspects, but not 30. I think everyone is a little too hard on the Russians about these incidents, because they are handling truly extraordinary hostgae situation with no real paralells. The theater incident last year was actually pretty well handled, even with the massive loss of hostages, because just about any other plan would have led to the deaths of ALL of the hostages and all of the rescuers. Their major screw-up on that one was not having an adequate follow-up plan for providing immediate medical evacuation and care for that many hostages, and is what led to the unfortuante deaths, but they are lucky that they did not lose them all.

This school incident sounds like the terrorists had a negligent discharge of their explosives, which triggered an exigent hostage rescue attempt, which came off quickly, and did its job, though there seemed to have been massive amounts of confusion. If faced with similar circumstances, I don't know that I would have a decent answer, either.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:01:43 AM EST
If such an attack makes it to the point of initiation, there's not much that can be done besides those being attacked resisting using whatever means necessary. It's the MO of these cowardly bastards to attack those who don't have the means to defend themselves. Engage them hand-to-hand. Grab their weapons if you can. Use improvised weapons if you can't do any better. Take out as many as you can before you fall. Encourage others to do the same. While it will still likely be a blood bath for anyone unlucky enough to be in that situation, just remember that you will only die at their hands by complying anyway. Knowing the options I have, I think I'd rather go out on my own terms, doing whatever I could to take as many of them out with me as possible.

Outside of doing a John Wayne, about the only other helpful thing I could think of would be to hide and hopefully have a cell phone or some means of relaying info to outside sources. In the building where I work, I have a plan in place for such a situation. If I can't escape or fight them off, yet remain undetected, I plan to climb up into the ceiling and relay as much intel to the cops as I can. There are lots of rooms and ways to get into the drop ceiling design. Once up there, there are all sorts of places you can go.

Those are about the only two things that come to mind at this hour. It sucks to have been awake all night, troubled to the point I can't sleep thinking about this Russian stuff and terrorism in general. I should have been asleep 5 hours ago.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:39:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By natez:
Contain, wait for HRT or CAG. This type of scenario is beyond the capabilities of most SWAT Teams, and most hostage incidents usually only have one hostage taker. We typically train for scenarios with multiple suspects, but not 30. I think everyone is a little too hard on the Russians about these incidents, because they are handling truly extraordinary hostgae situation with no real paralells. The theater incident last year was actually pretty well handled, even with the massive loss of hostages, because just about any other plan would have led to the deaths of ALL of the hostages and all of the rescuers. Their major screw-up on that one was not having an adequate follow-up plan for providing immediate medical evacuation and care for that many hostages, and is what led to the unfortuante deaths, but they are lucky that they did not lose them all.

This school incident sounds like the terrorists had a negligent discharge of their explosives, which triggered an exigent hostage rescue attempt, which came off quickly, and did its job, though there seemed to have been massive amounts of confusion. If faced with similar circumstances, I don't know that I would have a decent answer, either.



Good post.

The only thing I will add is that if a similar situation should occur in the US anything appearing to be remotely associated as being muslim will be destroyed by the citizens. There is little we as police officers could do to stop it even if we wanted to.........and I wouldn't want to.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:56:29 AM EST
I doubt the terrorist actually thought the russians were going to negoiate with them. They had no intention of releasing the hostages, they didnt even let the kids have any water. Yeah, russia should send even more troops into chechneya fuck those terrorist scum.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:57:45 AM EST
You know I hate to say it but in situations with that many people involved unless they surrender people are going to die. It's just a matter of how many.
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