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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/16/2001 8:14:15 AM EDT
What do you guys think? Necessary or just something to keep from getting fat? Ever use it on the job? I'll start: Before I became a cop, I trained in Hakko-ryu Jiu-Jitsu (American Jiu-Jist Centers, St. James, NY) religiously for 5 years. Earned a shodan (1st degree) Black Belt and taught classes for 2 of those 5 years. The job [b]does not allow...FORBIDS![/b] me to use the plethora of choke holds and submission techniques I learned, but an occasional arm/wrist/knee lock will appear every now and then when the opportunity arises.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 9:30:31 AM EDT
Martial Arts, yes. I understand the no choke hold rules........ The biggest advantage I would guess that you would have is you would be able to break out of a hold quicker if someone grabbed you. Weapon retention ability would also be enhanced. Not a martial artist guy, but when I wrestle with one of the guys that is, it is tough to put any hold on him because he counters so quick.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 9:35:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2001 9:33:55 AM EDT by Sukebe]
I suppose that stuff is good for conditioning and reflexes. There are useful techniques in all forms of martial arts. Being that we really aren't trained to hurt people the mind set of most cops is to restrain or gain some sort of pain compliance hold without causing injury. I've found that my high school wrestling has come in very handy(take downs and holds) and I also believe that since the vast majority of cops don't train for fighting regularly it's best to keep things simple. Learn a couple of techniques that you are comfortable with and use them. Most bad guys are very bad fighters, even the ones who think they can fight. Most bad guys don't want to stand and fight it out they just want to get away so they will keep using escape type maneuvers rather than fight it out. There are exceptions of course but they are rare. I just wanted to add that most of the cops I work with are bad fighters as well. I think this is due to the restrain and control without causing injury mind set. I've seen lots of cops fight each other and it's usually just a shoving and wrestling match. It's a rare occasion to see one punch or strike attempting to cause injury and when that happens it usually very one sided. It's the rare individual who truly possesses an aggressive fighting spirit.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 10:17:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 12:03:43 PM EDT
Formal training isnt really necessary. Just basics like dont punch people in the head with a closed fist or you'll hurt your hand. Knowing that and a few types of wrist locks and other control holds will serve you well.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 12:13:32 PM EDT
Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 12:33:28 PM EDT
I started martial arts training in '68' Okinawan,Japanese,Judo. I was captain and coach of my college karate team. I became very good. I was 130 lbs. When I returned home from the service, karate gave me the confidence to diffuse situations before they got out of hand. A calm mind when faced with a potential dangerous situation will give you a big leg up. It does take years of training to master this approach. My first use of my training was when I was walking in one of Boston's small neighborhoods. I heard a growl, and saw a large dog was charging at me, springing for the kill. Without thinking I spun around and snapkicked him to the throat. He actually sat on his haunches and looked at me with a, 'what the fuck did you just do',look. It was pretty funny to see. Another incident involved a guy 100 lbs heavier than me and a foot taller. It was in the North End of Boston where the streets are narrow and tempers hot. I was alone in my truck on a Friday night stuck on one of the congested side streets, I saw this huge guy in his 20's get out of his Cadillac and start screaming at this couple of kids and their dates from the 'burbs'. I then watched this monster open his trunk he took out a tire iron, and proceeded to clock one of the kids that was trying to apologize for a door bump. A big crowd had gathered, and they seemed to know this nut. I got out of my truck and walked up to this wacko who was then turning his attention to this other kid. As I approached, he turned and spun towards me, raising the tire iron. I grabbed his weapon hand,and he grabbed my shirt. This put me at an advantage as I had my right hand free. I was calm and looked him right in the eyes. I asked him if he was so big did he really needed a tire iron to fight those kids? I made a decision to take him out with my right hand if he tried to resist in any way. We waltzed around for a minute or two neither of us making any sudden moves,but I was controlling the action. Then someone yelled cops, and we both let go at the same time. Everyone in that crowed must of thought I was insane, maybe I was...a balance of terror. I believe achieving this state of 'Empty Hand',read Mind, gives one a much needed calm in the storms center, as opposed to an adrenaline rush that will leave you wondering what planet you are on...Hope this helps, my Martial Arts/Mind training has always helped me...Gib
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 1:22:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gib187th: It was in the North End of Boston where the streets are narrow and tempers hot.
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An icey rain was falling like so many daggers...
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 1:25:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 4:41:41 PM EDT
PPCT and Ground Fighting.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 6:39:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bobjitsu: Hey Gib, you know Shorin-Ryu? I studied for 10 years and still keep up on it personally now.
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Bob, the answer is no. I first studied Gojo-Ryu under Sensi George Gonis(sp) who at the time was with the Boston Police Dept.(68). He was Greek and incorporated ancient 'Pankration' moves with his traditional Martial Arts training. I then studied Uechi-Ryu for a year or two. In college I went from Okinawan karate to Japanese Shoto-Kan karate where we use to fight in a lot of tournaments. I cross trained in Judo which I liked a lot, and it helped me round out my style. I wish I had the time to study Ju-Jitsu, but teachers were very rare at that time. I use to travel to different Dojo's in the Boston area to learn. But Shorin Ryu as I remember was big in NYC area, and scarce here. The lack of any cartilage in my fingers, hands, wrists,and feet due to a 'hard' training style, and match injuries, has cramped my ability to walk or run. 25 years ago I read an article by an early American master about traditional training and arthritic injury...I am painfully aware daily, how right he was. My years of training have still not left me, or ever let me down. I doubt if it will leave you anytime soon,as well. Keep up the Fire.....Gib
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 6:44:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By gib187th: It was in the North End of Boston where the streets are narrow and tempers hot.
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An icey rain was falling like so many daggers...
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..and people die over parking spots ;{>
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 9:55:22 AM EDT
I wouldn't bother for defense. It wouldn't hurt for conditioning, exercise, etc. When you try to kick someone, you become unbalanced, thus opening yourself up for an attack. They give me the toys on my belt for a reason, I'll use those first, then if neccessary, do some Bruce Lee on them. :D
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 10:56:14 AM EDT
I would strongly suggest ground fighting and wrestling. The techniques are biased upon controlling the other person, submission holds and effective takedowns. I have been training in Brazilian Jui Jitsu and can strongly recommend it for dealing in real world street situations. BJJ is about controlling the other person and subduing them, or applying a finishing technique where they cannot continue to fight. Also the increased confidence and presence of mind you'll have will defuse most situations before they get out of hand. I have trained with allot of cops. During sparing they would try all the fancy wrist locks they were taught and it was totally useless and stupid. I am not trying to flame the training most cops get, but from what I have seen it's a false since of security. After sparing with us for a day most cops are so totally shook up about how helpless they are to a ground fighter they never come back to class, or only take private lessons from then on. I understand their feeling, for me it was just a sport, for them it's their life on the line. I used to work in security and made several arrests daily. I was requested to go on all stops because of my ability to control people that got violent and cuff them without injury and further liability. I love training and it just happens to have an added benefit in fighting. From my experience in many martial arts and street experience I can suggest this for your situation: a solid year of ground fighting and some boxing. Have fun! John [img]http://images.ofoto.com/photos42/9/50/19/3/6/0/6031950903_0_ALB.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/18/2001 7:14:31 PM EDT
I am old, but the rookies are always saying "that was really neat the way you......" Martial arts gives you an edge. I get to go in take people down with kids that have just realized I am older than many of their fathers. Martial arts must be in te right place. It has to relate to the job. You can't beat any one, nor can you roll around on the ground. I use lots of joint locks and take downs. As for strikes, never used one in over 20 years.
Link Posted: 12/19/2001 6:58:35 AM EDT
In Colorado, I was trained in Koga: I hated it, and rarely used it. My training in Ohio was Jiu-Jitsu based, and my instructor was Mike LaMonica. One of his many titles is "Kaiden/San Dai Kichu", and he is the highest ranking non-oriental in the world in this discipline: He kicked my ass !!!!! [:)] Jay Arizona
Link Posted: 12/19/2001 1:43:32 PM EDT
Here many of us use "nightstick-qwan-doo". In this martial art you reach out and grab someone by the shirt with your left hand and then strike him in the legs until they fall down with the ancient and sacred weapon. Recently we have developed an Americanized version called "pepperspraynightstick-qwan-doo". In this version you spray someone in the face with a secret substance and then grab their shirt and use the sacred weapon at that time. I would like to reveal our secret art in greater detail but feel it would be a betrayal of everyone else who have practiced so hard to master these techniques.
Link Posted: 12/19/2001 2:08:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rustygun: Here many of us use "nightstick-qwan-doo". In this martial art you reach out and grab someone by the shirt with your left hand and then strike him in the legs until they fall down with the ancient and sacred weapon. Recently we have developed an Americanized version called "pepperspraynightstick-qwan-doo". In this version you spray someone in the face with a secret substance and then grab their shirt and use the sacred weapon at that time. I would like to reveal our secret art in greater detail but feel it would be a betrayal of everyone else who have practiced so hard to master these techniques.
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Pretty Funny !!!! Jay Arizona
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 5:08:07 AM EDT
I trained in tae kwan do and tang soo do for years and the most important thing it does is teach that getting punched or kicked is not a reason to fall down and give up. I would further say the same is true for any martial art. I used to wrestle in high school and later coached it. Like Sukebe, I find the techniques from that more useful when working for the Sheriff's Office or the sex offender treatment center. Both places discourage dealing out gratuitous punishment/injury no matter how richly the recipient might deserve it. Especially at the treatment center, if I round-kicked a client in the head I'd automatically be out of a job regardless of what led up to the kick.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 8:59:28 PM EDT
Necessary, you bet. The skills taught in a basic police academy is enough to get you seriously injured. I am a PPCT Instructor and I believe it's a pretty good basis to start with. But it needs to be backed up with some quality training that will blend well. Ground fighting is a must but more importantly is to learn how to stay off the ground until you decide to put them on the ground. Never go to ground on their terms. Never, Never go to ground with more than one opponant - Sorry Jiu Jit Su fans. Good way to die! Started taking Krav Maga several months ago. Probably the best dicipline that I have ever been exposed to. Didn't get to take it long because of problems with the LA based owners and my instructor being shipped across the pond because of the funny green beret he wears.... Good luck, Bruce. God speed my friend. Hope to have you come ride out with me again in the near future! Whatever dicipline you train in is better than no dicipline. The key is training. The criminals - unfortunatley - have become smarter, more mobile, more technical, so we must move with them and be better or be buried under them. STAY ALERT - STAY ALIVE!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 8:53:09 AM EDT
I live in WA state now but the Aikido of Honolulu dojo in Hawaii included several LEO and one of my sensei's (teacher) was an HPD officer. They seemed to think basic techniques such as wrist, elbow locks were helpful in their line of work.
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