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Posted: 11/26/2001 8:38:55 AM EDT
[#1]
It's not so much one style or another as it is the orientation and focus of the school and instructor. Some instructors emphasize tournaments, some health, history, inner peace, whatever, and some focus on practical street techniques. Go to the schools in your area and watch a few classes, talk to the instructor...find one you're comfortable with.
Speaking as a 4th dan TKD, if all you really want is to learn to fight, you might consider boxing. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 8:40:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Ikedo, or JuJitso. don't know if the spelling is right but I really enjoyed JuJitso, and my instructor said that ikedo was also very good.
Guncrazy223 |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 8:47:55 AM EDT
[#3]
[url]www.kravmaga.com[/url]
No chi focusing, no contemplation of the infinite metaphysics of the Tao, just ass kicking, unarmed defenses against guns, knives, bats, ground fighting, combatives, etc. If you want to know more, shoot me an email @ [email][email protected][/email] |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 8:58:08 AM EDT
[#4]
Back in the bad old days the 'Black Panthers' screamed "Karate" and the Chicago Police screamed ".38" - bet you can guess who won.
My personal advice is to practice speed-loading your pistol. However, if you're the peaceful sort you might wrap a 'Louisville Slugger' with tape. Just remember that if you're ever in a fair fight your tactics suck. [:D] |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:00:23 AM EDT
[#5]
[b]SCARS[/b]
[url]www.scars.com[/url] Mike |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:04:32 AM EDT
[#6]
Goju-Shorin Karate... Nuf said. The main principle I was taught was to basically throw out as many offensive techniques as possible until your opponent can no longer continue to fight (or eat solid foods, or move their legs, or breath... whatever)
They teach regular Goju anywhere, it's worth doing if one has the time and patience. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:19:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Alright, alright if you guys who know better are going to answer with the use of the "physical" (ugh,crude) here's one.
Palm open, fingers straight-up to the sky - the attacker moves in - assuming you're right handed - right food slightly ahead - weight begins to move forward - strike with right arm and hit about the center of the breast bone with the heel of hand - relax arm slightly - let hand slide up to neck - stop and choke if you like but better to let hand slide on up to eyes - and dig like hell. Damn, I'm exhausted ! (Goju-Shorin Karate - an excellent example of the "hard" martial arts school.) |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:19:34 AM EDT
[#8]
I would also check into Hapkido. It's a Korean self defense system, not geared to the sport side as is most Tae Kwon Do. I've had a number of years of TKD, interspersed with some Hapkido. Hapkido is the style used in the Billy Jack movies, in which Grand Master Bong Soo Hong also played a part.
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:23:36 AM EDT
[#9]
for self defense against someone with no training, Boxing will suffice. Join a boxing gym/club. This will give you what most martial arts ignore, actual contact. Yes, you'll probably start out with 16 or 14 ounce gloves, and most "armchair" fighters will tell you it's getting hit with a pillow, but until you get hit by a guy trying to take your head off, you really have no clue.
Along with Boxing, I'd go with some type of ground fighting. IMHO Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (as long as they are reputable) are top of the food chain. The important part is "going live." Just like you wouldn't learn to shot by playing Spec Ops on your PC or playstation, you don't learn to fight using theory. Sparring is the key. Finally, "don't box with a boxer, kick with a kicker, or wrestle with a wrestler." NEVER play someone else's game. The idea it to take an opponent out of their game, so being at least knowledgeable in as many fighting forms as possible is important. There is no "Do all, win all" martial art out there. The biggest trend nowadays is cross training. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:27:50 AM EDT
[#10]
One more thing...I am a small dude, so I cannot rely on strength alone to defend myself. Also, I would like to learn restraint techniques.
Thanks for all your responses! -Chimborazo |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:28:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Vinnie's posted it right.
I know this will probably start a war but a good street fighter will kick the sh*t out of the average black belt. (Sometimes hard to remember but in the actual "arts" their are no colored belts.) |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 10:01:15 AM EDT
[#12]
As some of the other members have shown, there are many possible directions you can go. One aspect which you should consider is how your physical make-up is suited to a particular style. For example, if you have a large muscular build, and can't kick you foot above waist-level, then Tae Kwon Do may not be the best style to attempt, whereas you may be better suited to learn something like Goju-Ryu or Shotokan karate, or Hung Gar kung fu. I am 45+ years old, in fairly decent shape, but have limited flexibility; I knew that TKD was not the best style for me. Instead, I have been studying American Kenpo for the past 2+ years. It allows you to adjust the techniques to fit your own level of mobility and agility, yet be able to maintain the same level of effectiveness against an opponent. If you want further info on American Kenpo, you may want to begin looking in
[url]http://www.americankarate.com/jeffspeakman/[/url] IMHO, every martial arts style has something to offer. The really exceptional martial artists are the ones who use aspects from more than one style; classic examples of this are Ed Parker, Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris, just to name a few. Best thing to do first is to do what you have done --- do research and ask questions. That will help narrow things down to a point where you will be able to make a good choice for yourself. Good luck. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 10:05:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Vinnie is absolutely right...never play the other guys game, [b]CHEAT LIKE HELL[/b]
I've been in my fair share of fights and barbrawls (before I became a cop of course) and the Black Belt I earned in Jiu-Jitsu (classical stand up variation, not the Brazilian style grappling) actually any Black Belt earned in ANY style will not make you undefeatable...it'll just give you a better chance of avoiding conflict. Like my Sensei says: "Black Belt/Black Gun" |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 10:12:16 AM EDT
[#14]
i always am partiel to a swify kick to the groin
then running like hell. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 10:13:38 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: [url]www.kravmaga.com[/url] No chi focusing, no contemplation of the infinite metaphysics of the Tao, just ass kicking, unarmed defenses against guns, knives, bats, ground fighting, combatives, etc. If you want to know more, shoot me an email @ [email][email protected][/email] I 2nd the Krav Maga. It takes ideas from other karate diciplines, adds a realistic approach. No more perfect stance and form. BUT, having taken another karate (Shotokan) prior to this, has given me a better understanding of how to make solid punches and kicks. They also teach attacking with weapons but is li mited to military classes. I have some books on Krav Maga, and hope to find instruction on this. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 10:14:08 AM EDT
[#16]
As someone who used to bounce as well as take martial arts when I was a kid, I think Vinnie pretty much nailed it on the head. You never play the other persons game, as you are at a complete disadvantage. If you're not a serious boxer and you try to go up against a professional like Tyson or whomever you'll get your clock cleaned. However, put Tyson in a street fight or a Greco Roman wrestling match and he'd probably get his ass handed to him, provided he didn't bight you. Then again, Tyson was a street fighter long before he became a boxer.
The best example of different styles is to watch something like Ultimate Fighting. You'll see guys with all sorts of styles going after each other. A pair can be matched up twice and each time the other one wins. Why? There are just too many factors, and it ultimately boils down to the fact that real fighting is opportunistic and dirty. There's no honor in it, only survival. While these UFC guys are fighting for fame, glory, and prize money, on the street losing a fight could mean your life. There is no guaranteed way to come out on top of a fight because you know a certain style of fighting, and anyone who tells you that is selling you something. However, knowing as many as possible (and being good in them) increases your chance because you aren't limited to one style. So, if your Jiu Jitsu isn't getting you anywhere, then you can switch to grappling, Thai boxing, or what have you that may be better suited against an opponent. My best advice is to learn as many styles as possible and concentrate on styles that stress offense and street/dirty fighting over defense. You never win if you're constantly on the defense, and real world fighting is not like sparring. God Bless Texas |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 10:49:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: I really don't know much at all about martial arts, but let me try and describe what I'm looking for. Self-defense is what I'm mostly interested in, but I would like to learn something that is not [i]purely[/i] self-defense oriented. In other words, I want something that would be useful in realistic situations such as muggings, etc. but allow the "victim" to be devastating to the attacker. I would also like to learn things such as different methods of disarming armed attackers when possible. I realize that this post sounds really stupid, but I'm not sure how to ask the right questions. I guess the bottom line question is: What is the best thing to learn for everyday self defense? Thanks, Chimborazo Hands down, no contest: KravMaga. Check out [url]http://www.KravMaga.com[/url] |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 11:02:27 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Vinnie's posted it right. I know this will probably start a war but a good street fighter will kick the sh*t out of the average black belt. (Sometimes hard to remember but in the actual "arts" their are no colored belts.) There is some truth here: belt ranks may be a representation of knowledge of an art, but are not a direct reflection of fighting skill. This is ONLY gained through sparring and actual combat, belted or street fighter. If you want to [i]fight[/i], then you must have a school and instructor that will teach you fighting through actuall contact. HOWEVER: Don't think that everybody with a belt on is a pushover, and don't buy into the notion that a streetfighter will beat a black belt everytime. Just like there are good and bad streetfighters, there are good and bad martial artists. It all boils down to, in order of importance: 1) your mental preparedness 2) your physical preparedness 3) your conditioning. How and where you get them makes no difference, but plan on spending a significant portion of time (10 or more hours a week for at least two years) before you achieve a level of proficiency. The chief limiting factor in any combat is your conditioning. Kicking and punching is [i]very[/i] exhausting. If your body is not in good cardiovascular shape, knowledge of the most deadly techniques are useless. Mental preparedness is key: you have to be committed to inflicting rapid and merciless damage to a assailant, but have enough restraint not to kill the SOB. Last, the physical conditioning goes without saying: the more you practice your fighting in realistic situations, the quicker you will perform in high stress situations. Pick your art and pursue it as if your hair were on fire, but don't put on blinders to other approaches and techniques. There is no one answer, so train as if your life depends on it, as it very well may someday. Shooter |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 11:14:53 AM EDT
[#19]
First, learn to eat anything from different meats to insects to just about anything else.
Second, grab something and bite a chunk outta it. I was pretty good in Tae-Kwon-Do back in college and also street fighting (got a lot of practice anyway) till one day (actually night) when a wrestler got ahold of me. He had me twisted around before I knew what the hell had happened. It was pretty damned impressive. He screwed up and had his leg where it didn't belong. I damn near bit a chunk outta his calf, and I mean a big chunk. He screamed like a baby and let go. I then kicked the hell outta him. That saved my ass. Learn to bite like an animal. If you get ahold of me, you're dinner. [:D] |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 12:21:24 PM EDT
[#20]
ShooterX308 -
You put the whole thing in a nice, neat package. No matter what you know, it all boils down to if you are in good condition, both physically and psychologically, to be able to use your fighting skills effectively. It might be worthwhile to suggest to our fellow shooters to learn a martial art for one basic reason --- what do you do if your main weapon fails, and you have nothing else available but your own body? |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 1:33:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Vinnie is absolutely right...never play the other guys game, [b]CHEAT LIKE HELL[/b] It's not cheating if there are no rules.[;)] |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 1:58:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: One more thing...I am a small dude, so I cannot rely on strength alone to defend myself. Also, I would like to learn restraint techniques. Thanks for all your responses! -Chimborazo sounds like what you need is Aikido mixed with some Jeet Kune Do. when i studied Aikido, we learned alot of disarming maneuvars. it does not require alot of strength. you actually use their strength against them and conserve your own. it also looks better on a police report. Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee fighting method) has a good mix of techniques and is centered around K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid). JKD dispenses with wasted movement and is more straight forward a boxing method. it also incorporates grappling from Judo, and Ju Jitsu (before Bruce Lee died he was studying ground fighting) a former matial artist (wanting to get back into it) lib |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 2:02:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: First, learn to eat anything from different meats to insects to just about anything else. Second, grab something and bite a chunk outta it. I was pretty good in Tae-Kwon-Do back in college and also street fighting (got a lot of practice anyway) till one day (actually night) when a wrestler got ahold of me. He had me twisted around before I knew what the hell had happened. It was pretty damned impressive. He screwed up and had his leg where it didn't belong. I damn near bit a chunk outta his calf, and I mean a big chunk. He screamed like a baby and let go. I then kicked the hell outta him. That saved my ass. Learn to bite like an animal. If you get ahold of me, you're dinner. [:D] Mmmmm....needs salt...[:D][:D] |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 2:36:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: First, learn to eat anything from different meats to insects to just about anything else. Second, grab something and bite a chunk outta it. I was pretty good in Tae-Kwon-Do back in college and also street fighting (got a lot of practice anyway) till one day (actually night) when a wrestler got ahold of me. He had me twisted around before I knew what the hell had happened. It was pretty damned impressive. He screwed up and had his leg where it didn't belong. I damn near bit a chunk outta his calf, and I mean a big chunk. He screamed like a baby and let go. I then kicked the hell outta him. That saved my ass. Learn to bite like an animal. If you get ahold of me, you're dinner. [:D] I think I would refrain from biting someone unless you had ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE. When you think about blood-borne pathogens such as Hepatitis and AIDS, that may be worse than the fight you're involved in! |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 2:41:36 PM EDT
[#25]
The thing with martial arts is that every movie or supposed no hold barred match, comes a fad.
EX: 70's everyone wanted to learn Kung Fu or Jeet Kune cause of Bruce Lee. 80's everyone wanted to learn Tae Kwon Do or Tang Soo Do cause of Chuck Norris. 90's Everyone wanted to learn Brazilian Jujitsu cause of the Gracie Bros. Everyone thought they were badasses. Then there is Tae Bo and everyone thought and still thinks this is a martial art. 2000's, A lot so-called "military martial arts" are coming out. Can't really tell where this trend is coming from, but it seems to be gaining momentum. So what am I getting at. DO NOT FOLLOW TRENDS. Martial Arts is not for fighting. Its is the art of movement that can be used for fighting but [b]primarily for defense[/b]. So what is a self defense art? ALL OF THEM. Here's what you do. Call a local studio. See if you can watch a class. Maybe even try out a class. Most studious will give you a free introductory class. Try out a few. See which art and instructor you are comfortable with. I have taken roughly 6 different arts since I was in the eight grade. I liked all of them and have learned a lot. However, there was only one art I was confortable with and melted with my body and the way my body moves and fights. That is Shaolin Kempo. I can recommend this to you, but it might not be right for you. Kinda me liking Glocks and you liking Sigs. Glocks fit my hand perfectly and has the functinality that I like. You on the other hand might not like Glocks ergo, and Sigs fit better in your hand. See what I mean. Martial arts is the same way cause you are dealing with [b]your[/b] body. Your way of moving. Again try out different arts before you decide. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 2:47:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Wanted to add:
If you are really looking for an art for practical in todays situations, take a look at AikiJitSu, or Aikido(Japanese). If none near you, maybe Hapkido, Moo Duk Kwon, Kuk Sool Won(Korean), Maybe San Soo Kun Fu (I particularly like this art, very brutal application. Mainly reactive) |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 3:08:10 PM EDT
[#27]
My philosophy for hand to hand or any other situation has always been to get myself out of the situation as quickly as possible with as little harm to myself as possible. I have studied many different forma over the years from Akido, JKD, Muay Thai, Jujitsu, and I have studied with many people who were highly trained in many other forms. In my opinion for close quarters fighting you want to be good at grapelling and also striking with your knees and elbows. But just as with a weapon if you do not practice properly then it wont do you much good. Nor will it do you any good if you do not have the ability/attitude/mental alertness/balls/or whatever you callit to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done.
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Posted: 11/26/2001 3:24:34 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm an old dude so my "training" may be out of date but I have studied several styles. The best self defense training I got was from a very very tough Columbian instructor, with no particular style. That's the kind of guy you want. Doing impressive flying side-kicks ain't self defense, but they will help your physical training.
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Posted: 11/26/2001 8:46:50 PM EDT
[#29]
LT, you left out the Ninjitsu craze of 80's.
Basically in the 80's, making a martial arts movie was a fad. I mean come on...Gymkata? |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:02:07 PM EDT
[#30]
origionally posted by lordtrader A lot so-called "military martial arts" are coming out. Can't really tell where this trend is coming from, but it seems to be gaining momentum. "Military-styled" training has been around forever. Vunak used to make big time cash doing seminars because he "trained the SeALs." Lately I think people doubt that many traditional martial arts won't help when an attacker is 6'7 300 lbs and high on PCP. SO they say to themselves, "well heck, people in the army MUST know how to fight." Enter SCARs, Krav Maga, ect... Martial arts wise, the circle has come full turn. In the 90's Royce Gracie, shocked the world in the UFC (as Gracie invention, incase you didn't know) by defeating bigger and "badder" men using ground fighting technics..for a while Grapplers ruled, the along comes Maurice Smith, a kickboxing champ and stuns the world by KOing one of the great grapplers, so now everyone is running to there nearest Muay Thai/Western boxing gym and honeing there stand up skills. Basically the moral of the story is don't be a one dimensional fighter. Paraphrasing the late great Bruce Lee, "Whatever works" |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 9:59:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: ..for a while Grapplers ruled, the along comes Maurice Smith, a kickboxing champ and stuns the world by KOing one of the great grapplers, so now everyone is running to there nearest Muay Thai/Western boxing gym and honeing there stand up skills. Let's not forget Ken Shamrock, who is still to this day the key figure in both ground fighting, submission, and striking. But yeah, Smith was a BADASS in his own right, I think he shocked everybody. Basically the moral of the story is don't be a one dimensional fighter. Paraphrasing the late great Bruce Lee, "Whatever works" That's the idea...Jun Fan was a very, very intellegent man. |
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Posted: 11/26/2001 10:03:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: The thing with martial arts is that every movie or supposed no hold barred match, comes a fad. EX: 70's everyone wanted to learn Kung Fu or Jeet Kune cause of Bruce Lee. 80's everyone wanted to learn Tae Kwon Do or Tang Soo Do cause of Chuck Norris. 90's Everyone wanted to learn Brazilian Jujitsu cause of the Gracie Bros. Everyone thought they were badasses. Then there is Tae Bo and everyone thought and still thinks this is a martial art. 2000's, A lot so-called "military martial arts" are coming out. Can't really tell where this trend is coming from, but it seems to be gaining momentum. So what am I getting at. DO NOT FOLLOW TRENDS. Pretty much what I was gonna say. And you forgot the 80s Ninja thing. Krav Maga is fine for what it is. But it is also a "flavor of the month" and that means 95% posers. Just like Navy SEALs those who impersonate Jeet Kune Do, Ninjutsu, Gracie Style and Krav Maga instructors far outnumber the real deal. |
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Posted: 11/27/2001 11:04:53 AM EDT
[#33]
All I've had the opportunity to study so far is Aikido, but I love it. Its techniques can range from relatively gentle to devastating intensity, depending on the situation. It does not require exceptional strength or flexibility on the part of the practitioner. But I must agree with everyone who says that diversity is the key. The great swordsman Miyamoto Musashi said "Too much is the same as not enough." Study everything you can experience, consider every art to be another tool in your toolbox. That way, when you come up against a striker, you can use grappling techniques, and when you come up against a grappler, you can use striking techniques.
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Posted: 11/30/2001 2:27:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: All I've had the opportunity to study so far is Aikido, but I love it. Its techniques can range from relatively gentle to devastating intensity, depending on the situation. It does not require exceptional strength or flexibility on the part of the practitioner. [i]From what i've seen[/i] (meaning I'm not going to generalize just yet), I'm really unimpressed with Aikido. My friend John has been taking/teaching it for 15 years, and a while back I whipped him kinda bad for only a 2 year JuiJitsu student. Granted, he's smaller than me and I know some Wing Chun, but he really didn't seem to put up much of a fight, only managing to parry from some shoots and takedowns I was attempting. Maybe Aikido is "too" gentle? Each unto their own, I suppose. [i][b]Don't Follow Trends!![/b][/i] |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 11:14:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Eagle Claw Kung Fu. You not only learn Striking movements but grappling movements as well (Shaolin Chin Na). Eagle Claw Kung Fu places an Emphasis on Speed and hitting.
Also good is Wing Chun Kung Fu: Very Stiff and simple. But very fast: has the least amount of wasted motion. |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 2:14:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Let me be the third to suggest (very loudly)
Krav Maga I have looked at and investigated martial arts systems for quite sometime now. Most have their good points and all have their bad points. But for down and dirty, put the hurting on them, quickly, Krav is it. Easy to learn, easy to maintain, easy to screw someone up. The Isrealies had to have something quickly that worked. Krav does just that. Unfortuately, Krav has become very money focused and some of their trainers are not as good and some have had to close their doors because of all the copyrighted/monetary issues. Find someone who is teaching Krav and go and watch, see if they know what they hell they are doing or if they are just winging it. The best Krav instructors, are those who have training in other diciplines and who take their teaching seriously. It is unfortuate that Houston lost an outstanding Krav Instructor.............. very sad indeed. I truly enjoyed his classes, I will miss them. |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 2:52:08 PM EDT
[#37]
[blue]"Self-defense is what I'm mostly interested in, but I would like to learn something that is not purely self-defense oriented. In other words, I want something that would be useful in realistic situations such as muggings, etc. but allow the "victim" to be devastating to the attacker"[blue]
[red].45x2= devastating to the attacker![red] [kill] |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 2:57:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Mixed Martial Arts! You should watch Ultimate Fighting Championship or Pride Fight. The last Pride Fight was pretty good!!
[url]http://www.pridefc.com/[/url] [url]http://www.ufc.tv/Index2.asp[/url] |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 3:01:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Just a final note on Krav Maga. It is an "auxillary" art. This means it is meant for someone who is "armed." If this is you, it is a good system to augment the arms you carry in those cases where they cannot be immediately employed.
As a "stand alone" fighting system it can be pretty basic in scope. This simplicity allows it to be quickly learned but there are more complete fighting systems. |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 10:36:02 PM EDT
[#40]
I would second Trader's suggestion of Aikido and/or Jujitsu, especially if your not 6'0" and 225 lbs. These techniques utilize the attackers momentum and put you in control
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Posted: 12/2/2001 3:38:54 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Wanted to add: ......Maybe San Soo Kun Fu (I particularly like this art, very brutal application. Mainly reactive) There is an instructor of San Soo in my town, and I've been by there a few times to check it out. What are some other differences between San Soo and the different forms of Kung fu? You say San Soo is mainly reactive. Is it the same as the idea behind "way of the intercepting fist"(JKD)? |
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Posted: 12/2/2001 7:05:07 AM EDT
[#42]
I prefer Clubber Lang-style Kung Fu.
"I will destroy any man who tries to take what I got." |
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Posted: 12/2/2001 6:09:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By Boom Stick: There is an instructor of San Soo in my town, and I've been by there a few times to check it out. What are some other differences between San Soo and the different forms of Kung fu? You say San Soo is mainly reactive. Is it the same as the idea behind "way of the intercepting fist"(JKD)? Bruce Lee's Jun Fan/JKD is Wing Chun based. Well at least that's the first art that he combined into his mix. JKD samples from Wing Chun, Western Boxing, Muay Thai, Filipino Kali, Shootfighting, then later (in most of the newer schools) Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. (The Gracies opened shop near Dan Inosanto) (It's a long/stupid story about the political line drawn between JKD "Concepts" and "Origional" JKD/Jun Fan, which I won't go into) |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 2:50:02 PM EDT
[#44]
How NOT to kick!
[url]www.selfdefenseforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255[/url] |
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