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Posted: 6/12/2009 1:01:53 PM EST
Whenever people begin to talk about travel beyond the moon or "what to do next" in space the topic inevitably steers to Mars. Personally, I just don't get it. At least to me Mars has to be one of the least interesting of all the objects in our Solar System. Mars is small, barren, cold, lacking of atmosphere, and lacking of many interesting resources. As far as terraforming or possible colonization, I think we would have an easier time with Venus (Earth's sister planet). It is about the same mass as Earth so the gravity would feel more normal. It also has an atmosphere! Granted, it isn't something that you'd want to breath, but it is rich in Carbon Dioxide. That CO2 could be utilized by some forms exotic and hearty plant life. Eventually it could be converted into something breathable. There are many moons orbiting the gas giants that have interesting aspects as well. So I ask, why Mars? Is it just a matter of proximity?
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:03:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 1:05:20 PM EST by KBaker]
Because it's there.

ETA: Because we can.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:05:57 PM EST
It's where the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator is. Seize that puppy and you will RULE THE WORLD!!!!!

Of course, the world will still be Mars...
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:07:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Because it's there.

ETA: Because we can.

Other places are there too! I'm not saying that we shouldn't go places, just that there are other places that we could also choose to visit.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:10:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 1:12:33 PM EST by Ponyboy]
Venus probably wouldn't be a good choice because of many factors such as the atmospheric pressure which is many, many times what it is on earth which would just crush stuff, the temperature which can rise above 800 degrees F and the fact that the clouds on Venus are mostly composed of sulfuric acid.

Mars is much more hospitable.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:11:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:11:36 PM EST
Google Venus and get back to us regarding it's surface temperature which at the boiling point of lead, and its highly poisonous, corrosive atmosphere which is under crushing pressure.

There's a reason that space probes that enter the Venusian atmosphere or land on its surface only last for a matter of minutes.

Venus is nothing at all like the Earth.

Mars is the closest Earth analogue in the solar system.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:12:05 PM EST
Demons and aliens
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:12:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
The surface temperature of Venus is over 800F. Surface temperature of Mars far colder. I'd assume it's easier to create heat than to create cold.


The universe is filled with cold with only little specks of heat here and there.

I have no idea if that makes it practically easier to make venus cooler or mars hotter.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:14:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 1:17:18 PM EST by Alien]

Originally Posted By max229:
Whenever people begin to talk about travel beyond the moon or "what to do next" in space the topic inevitably steers to Mars. Personally, I just don't get it. At least to me Mars has to be one of the least interesting of all the objects in our Solar System. Mars is small, barren, cold, lacking of atmosphere, and lacking of many interesting resources. As far as terraforming or possible colonization, I think we would have an easier time with Venus (Earth's sister planet). It is about the same mass as Earth so the gravity would feel more normal. It also has an atmosphere! Granted, it isn't something that you'd want to breath, but it is rich in Carbon Dioxide. That CO2 could be utilized by some forms exotic and hearty plant life. Eventually it could be converted into something breathable. There are many moons orbiting the gas giants that have interesting aspects as well. So I ask, why Mars? Is it just a matter of proximity?

It is hilarious that you suggested Venus which means you don't really seem to know much about space exploration and the planets. No offense. Maybe if you did a little reading, you might realize why Mars is of great interest. Nevermind that conditions there were once suitable for life to exist. Venus is a veritable hell-hole. No man will likely ever set foot on it ever. Mars on the otherhand has the potential to be an outpost for humanity.

The Universe is a great series you might want to try watching on the History Channel. It's pretty informative and talks about various things involving space, the universe, and the exploration of it.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:15:04 PM EST
Mars shows evidence that it once had liquid water there. Which means the possibility of life being there at one time.

Plus, haven't you seen Total Recall?!?!? Girls with 3 boobs. Come on, think of the motorboating possibilities.

Mars, baby. Fuck yeah.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:15:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 1:19:08 PM EST by Frost7]
Originally Posted By max229:
As far as terraforming or possible colonization, I think we would have an easier time with Venus (Earth's sister planet).



United Terraformers frowns on your shenanigans.

Seriously, we could probably terraform Mars 80 times over for the cost and effort it would take to terraform Venus. That and we could establish a colony there right now with modern technology as long as we could cough up the cash to fund it, and astronauts could actually go outside in a pressure suit without seeing whether being smashed or melted kills them first within five seconds. Venus makes going to Dante's version of hell sound like a vacation.

The next logical step after Mars is Titan, or if we can figure a good way to block radiation, Europa. Venus is something we're not going to be able to do much with until we have Star Trek technology, and maybe not even then. We could explore (and colonize if suitable places are found) Alpha Centauri, Tau Ceti, and Epsilon Eridani with a small fraction of the funds it'd take to even start work on making Venus habitable.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:24:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Venus probably wouldn't be a good choice because of many factors such as the atmospheric pressure which is many, many times what it is on earth which would just crush stuff, the temperature which can rise above 800 degrees F and the fact that the clouds on Venus are mostly composed of sulfuric acid.

Mars is much more hospitable.

The crushing atmospheric pressure is caused by the overabundance of C02. If we could bioengineer some microbes to live high in the atmosphere and begin photosynthesis those conditions would begin to change. It could eventually become habitable.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:27:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 1:28:04 PM EST by Frost7]
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Venus probably wouldn't be a good choice because of many factors such as the atmospheric pressure which is many, many times what it is on earth which would just crush stuff, the temperature which can rise above 800 degrees F and the fact that the clouds on Venus are mostly composed of sulfuric acid.

Mars is much more hospitable.

The crushing atmospheric pressure is caused by the overabundance of C02. If we could bioengineer some microbes to live high in the atmosphere and begin photosynthesis those conditions would begin to change. It could eventually become habitable.

Breathing the CO2 doesn't just make the pressure go away though, you're just changing composition. You'd need some way to lose to atmosphere to space, and then get the planet itself to stop replenishing it.

And then even if you do that, there's the problem of it barely rotates at all. Even if you got it to an Earth-normal atmosphere, depending on where you are you're either freezing or being baked to death.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:28:51 PM EST
That would take a lot of explaining…

Venus is much closer to the size of Earth. But it has a massively thick atmosphere that’s mostly CO2 with a bunch of other nasty stuff thrown in. The atmospheric pressure at the surface is so high that no human could ever live in it. In fact, we have trouble designing equipment capable of dealing with it. It would likely crush a modern military submarine. (Crush depths are classified so I don’t know for sure. But it’s way more pressure than the Navy claims our subs can take.) And there’s no way to realistically get rid of that atmosphere.

And there’s precious little hydrogen or water on Venus. So we would need to import a lot of it if Venus were to ever be capable of supporting life. Venus also has no magnetic field, no plate tectonics, and a day that is a hundred times as long as one of our days.

In short, it would take near godlike powers to transform Venus into a planet that was even remotely habitable. It wouldn’t be doable even with Star Trek levels of technology. (Not counting that Genesis device.)

Terraforming Mars would be difficult too. But establishing colonies there wouldn’t be.

There’s water there. Not an awful lot by Earth standards but enough for us to get by. Elements can’t be created in any meaningful volume so a planet must have certain elements if we are to live there. One of the most important is hydrogen. Without a source of hydrogen there are a whole lot of necessary industrial chemical reactions that we can’t do.

Mars has a day that’s pretty close to ours. This is critical for growing crops.

It’s cold and has a thin atmosphere. But it’s easier to deal with slight cold and low pressure than it is to deal with hot and an incredibly high pressure.

Mars doesn’t have plate tectonics or a meaningful magnetic field either. This means that it really never could be teraformed the way some people want. But the habitats could be built to deal with the solar radiation.

The truth is that Mars isn’t a good place, but it’s the only place for us to go next.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:35:19 PM EST
I want to go to Mars so I can get some of that three boobed poontang.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:44:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Frost7:
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Venus probably wouldn't be a good choice because of many factors such as the atmospheric pressure which is many, many times what it is on earth which would just crush stuff, the temperature which can rise above 800 degrees F and the fact that the clouds on Venus are mostly composed of sulfuric acid.

Mars is much more hospitable.

The crushing atmospheric pressure is caused by the overabundance of C02. If we could bioengineer some microbes to live high in the atmosphere and begin photosynthesis those conditions would begin to change. It could eventually become habitable.

Breathing the CO2 doesn't just make the pressure go away though, you're just changing composition. You'd need some way to lose to atmosphere to space, and then get the planet itself to stop replenishing it.

And then even if you do that, there's the problem of it barely rotates at all. Even if you got it to an Earth-normal atmosphere, depending on where you are you're either freezing or being baked to death.

Interesting points. Also, remember like I said earlier I am far from an expert on planetary transformation. That is one of the reasons why I started this thread. It is never fun to start a discussion about something that you already know a lot about. You don't learn anything new and you tend to sound like a show-off!
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:50:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Venus probably wouldn't be a good choice because of many factors such as the atmospheric pressure which is many, many times what it is on earth which would just crush stuff, the temperature which can rise above 800 degrees F and the fact that the clouds on Venus are mostly composed of sulfuric acid.

Mars is much more hospitable.

The crushing atmospheric pressure is caused by the overabundance of C02. If we could bioengineer some microbes to live high in the atmosphere and begin photosynthesis those conditions would begin to change. It could eventually become habitable.



There are billions of us here that have been trying to fuck up Earth's atmosphere for about 100 years now and they're still unable to figure out if we've done much of anything.

Instead of trying to figure out how we can change Venus's atmosphere, why don't you try to figure out how we can put an atmosphere on the moon then we could just fly there and walk around and maybe plant some trees or something.


Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:52:15 PM EST
It isn't all that interesting, it's a giant rock.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:57:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Frost7:
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Venus probably wouldn't be a good choice because of many factors such as the atmospheric pressure which is many, many times what it is on earth which would just crush stuff, the temperature which can rise above 800 degrees F and the fact that the clouds on Venus are mostly composed of sulfuric acid.

Mars is much more hospitable.

The crushing atmospheric pressure is caused by the overabundance of C02. If we could bioengineer some microbes to live high in the atmosphere and begin photosynthesis those conditions would begin to change. It could eventually become habitable.

Breathing the CO2 doesn't just make the pressure go away though, you're just changing composition. You'd need some way to lose to atmosphere to space, and then get the planet itself to stop replenishing it.

And then even if you do that, there's the problem of it barely rotates at all. Even if you got it to an Earth-normal atmosphere, depending on where you are you're either freezing or being baked to death.

Interesting points. Also, remember like I said earlier I am far from an expert on planetary transformation. That is one of the reasons why I started this thread. It is never fun to start a discussion about something that you already know a lot about. You don't learn anything new and you tend to sound like a show-off!

True enough.

Seriously though, the most cost-effective way as well as probably the speediest way to get to work on Venus would be to just build a huge-assed shield between it and the sun so it stops receiving sunlight. If we could do that, it would slowly radiate its atmospheric heat into space, and then most of that atmopshere would condense and rain itself onto the surface.

Shielding a planet that's almost the size of Earth from the sun would be one seriously massive undertaking in its own right, though.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:57:19 PM EST
Mars, for all its faults, is the most Earthlike of the other planets, plus it's the closest and easiest to get to. I've seen talk of terraforming Venus, going back for decades. IIRC they'd seed the atmosphere with algae or such to feed off the CO2 and convert it to oxygen. It would take a very long time, though, hundreds or thousands of years.

Here's something to consider: Mars is about half the diameter of Earth, and only has ~1/3 the surface area. But since Earth is 70% covered with water, the LAND area of Earth and Mars are about the same. That's a lot of real estate.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:01:24 PM EST
The most compelling reason to go to Mars is that it has water in some form on it. The the first order of approximation, living on mars is a problem of building stuff that is airtight, and using the water to live off of. Venus as mention the first order of problem is surviving the hellish heat, current life times for things surviving there I think is less than a day.
The other interesting place to go is asteroids or the moon, there are trade off, but in both cases the driving problem is obtaining water, to support life. A rocket launch is currently to expensive to ship all the water need to support a human in the long term.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:04:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
It isn't all that interesting, it's a giant rock.


So's the moon. But people went there too.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:06:20 PM EST

Aren't there hookers with three tits on Mars?
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:09:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 2:10:00 PM EST by Harvey041]
Originally Posted By max229:
.....I think we would have an easier time with Venus (Earth's sister planet)..........










Titan or Europa would be my top pick.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:30:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 2:34:10 PM EST by Frost7]
Originally Posted By Harvey041:
Originally Posted By max229:
.....I think we would have an easier time with Venus (Earth's sister planet)..........





Titan or Europa would be my top pick.

Problem with Europa that most overlook is it's sitting right instead Jupiter's equivalent to our Van Allen belts. Unless you're sitting in a lead block encased in water Jupiter's radiation will cook you within 15 minutes on Europa's surface. We need to come up with some kind of Star Trek-ish energy field that blocks harmful radiation before we can get serious about Europa. That or just put any settlement far enough under the ice.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:32:47 PM EST
Awesome offroading and unlimited range space.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:49:08 PM EST
I think Mars is one of the most interesting planets actually.

It has an atmosphere, probably had liquid water, the seasons are similar as to Earth. Mars has the largest known mountain in the universe, and the largest canyon. Olumpys Mons is 16.7 miles high. Someone standing on the surface of Mars from anywhere would not be able to see the top of the mountain due to the planet's curvature. Standing on the highest point of its summit, the slope of the volcano would extend beyond the horizon, a mere 3 kilometers away.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:58:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By guardian855:
I think Mars is one of the most interesting planets actually.

It has an atmosphere, probably had liquid water, the seasons are similar as to Earth. Mars has the largest known mountain in the universe, and the largest canyon. Olumpys Mons is 16.7 miles high. Someone standing on the surface of Mars from anywhere would not be able to see the top of the mountain due to the planet's curvature. Standing on the highest point of its summit, the slope of the volcano would extend beyond the horizon, a mere 3 kilometers away.

I made it a goal in life to climb (well, hike anyway) Olympus Mons before I die. I hope I can.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:08:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By max229:
Whenever people begin to talk about travel beyond the moon or "what to do next" in space the topic inevitably steers to Mars. Personally, I just don't get it. At least to me Mars has to be one of the least interesting of all the objects in our Solar System. Mars is small, barren, cold, lacking of atmosphere, and lacking of many interesting resources. As far as terraforming or possible colonization, I think we would have an easier time with Venus (Earth's sister planet). It is about the same mass as Earth so the gravity would feel more normal. It also has an atmosphere! Granted, it isn't something that you'd want to breath, but it is rich in Carbon Dioxide. That CO2 could be utilized by some forms exotic and hearty plant life. Eventually it could be converted into something breathable. There are many moons orbiting the gas giants that have interesting aspects as well. So I ask, why Mars? Is it just a matter of proximity?


Unless you plan on constructing a AC unit the size of Australia teraforming Venus is not probable. Its way to close to the sun. Mars would be more of a possiblity.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:12:32 PM EST
There was a recent show on the core of the earth on the Discovery Channel, the show showed that one of the main reasons that we have an atmosphere and protection through the radiation belt was that we have a planetary core that is active and moving. The show used Mars as an example as to what happens when a planet's core is not active but frozen like Mars. It was the producers belief that because the core was inactive and frozen the solar winds basically burned off the planets atmosphere. After watching the program I had to wonder if it would be possible to really terra form the planet as some suggest.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:17:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
There was a recent show on the core of the earth on the Discovery Channel, the show showed that one of the main reasons that we have an atmosphere and protection through the radiation belt was that we have a planetary core that is active and moving. The show used Mars as an example as to what happens when a planet's core is not active but frozen like Mars. It was the producers belief that because the core was inactive and frozen the solar winds basically burned off the planets atmosphere. After watching the program I had to wonder if it would be possible to really terra form the planet as some suggest.



The solution to terraforming Mars is to restart the core. Everything after that would be fairly simple I think.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:18:36 PM EST
Because that's where cheese comes from, <sigh>
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:25:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Chaingun:
Because that's where cheese comes from, <sigh>


Thats the moon. Martians come from Mars.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:25:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By glockfan45:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
There was a recent show on the core of the earth on the Discovery Channel, the show showed that one of the main reasons that we have an atmosphere and protection through the radiation belt was that we have a planetary core that is active and moving. The show used Mars as an example as to what happens when a planet's core is not active but frozen like Mars. It was the producers belief that because the core was inactive and frozen the solar winds basically burned off the planets atmosphere. After watching the program I had to wonder if it would be possible to really terra form the planet as some suggest.



The solution to terraforming Mars is to restart the core. Everything after that would be fairly simple I think.

Very true.

Only, restarting the core of a planet might be a bit problematic, Hollywood notwithstanding.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:37:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 3:40:13 PM EST by Master_of_Orion]

Originally Posted By max229:
Whenever people begin to talk about travel beyond the moon or "what to do next" in space the topic inevitably steers to Mars. Personally, I just don't get it. At least to me Mars has to be one of the least interesting of all the objects in our Solar System. Mars is small, barren, cold, lacking of atmosphere WRONG, and lacking of many interesting resources. How do you know? There are many scientists who would love to Know what resources Mars has, meaning no one knows what Mars has yet. As far as terraforming or possible colonization, I think we would have an easier time with Venus (Earth's sister planet). It is about the same mass as Earth so the gravity would feel more normal. It also has an atmosphere! Granted, it isn't something that you'd want to breath, but it is rich in Carbon Dioxide. That CO2 could be utilized by some forms exotic and hearty plant life. Eventually it could be converted into something breathable. There are many moons orbiting the gas giants that have interesting aspects as well. So I ask, why Mars? Is it just a matter of proximity?

Mars has an Atmosphere. It's mostly CO2. It's gravity is ruffly 1/3 of earth and has a day only about 40 min longer. It has water that can be used for rocket fuel... air... drinking... It has the potential of once supporting life and may still harbor life in a deep cavern. On top of that it has the potential for fairly easily being terraformed. We know how to warm a planet.

Venus has a lot of CO2... AND I MEAN A LOT. The pressure at the surface is more than the pressure at the bottom of our deepest oceans. The temperature at the surface is enough to melt lead. One day is 243 earth days long... one year is 224 earth days long... that's right it goes around the sun once before it completes one day. It is nearly the same mass just .815 earth mass.

Both plants are absent a magnetic field. The difference between the 2 is the mass... When Mars lost it's magnetic field the water disassociated and due to Mar's low mass it lost both the H and the O to space. When Venus lost it's magnetic field it's water also disassociated but due to it's higher mass it could hold onto the O and thus we get a massive atmosphere of CO2. Venus is what Earth will be when we too lose our magnetic field. It is about as close to hell as you're likely to find.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:38:48 PM EST
Mars does not interest me one bit. The only planet that would interest me would be another Earth like planet for colonization, but that doesn't exist.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:39:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
.

Instead of trying to figure out how we can change Venus's atmosphere, why don't you try to figure out how we can put an atmosphere on the moon then we could just fly there and walk around and maybe plant some trees or something.




The Moon does not have enough gravity to hold on to an atmosphere that you could breath. Mars wouldn't work either. Solar wind blasts it away.

Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:51:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Mars does not interest me one bit. The only planet that would interest me would be another Earth like planet for colonization, but that doesn't exist.


In our galaxy you mean? What was it that Carl Sagan said about other life in the cosmos? Something like if you took all of the billions of galaxies out there, and the billions and billions of medium sized stars out there with satellites (planets)...and if just one out of every billion had conditions favorable to life, and if just one out of every billion of those had life, and if one out of every billion of those had intelligent life, there would be billions of opportunities for us to find it.

Link Posted: 6/12/2009 4:00:21 PM EST
M A R S

Mars bitches!

Red rocks!
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:31:00 AM EST
As a hard-core space geek I am interested in Mars because it has the potential to be colonized with mear-term technology.

Potential.

Near term.

Sure, I'd be more interested in a earth-like planet but there are none within reach using present technology.

Colonization is imporatant to me so as we can have a second society in case this one fails. Perhaps a free society where people can go to if this one sucks badly enough.

I am interested in space for political reasons.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:39:27 AM EST

Because there is actually life on Mars. Recent photos have proven it.





Here is a better picture.




Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:40:27 AM EST
Its another boondoggle they can use to prop up NASA
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:41:40 AM EST
Looks like a great place to send the Gitmo detainees!

And certain Kenyans
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:01:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:48:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
There was a recent show on the core of the earth on the Discovery Channel, the show showed that one of the main reasons that we have an atmosphere and protection through the radiation belt was that we have a planetary core that is active and moving. The show used Mars as an example as to what happens when a planet's core is not active but frozen like Mars. It was the producers belief that because the core was inactive and frozen the solar winds basically burned off the planets atmosphere. After watching the program I had to wonder if it would be possible to really terra form the planet as some suggest.



The whole magnetic field protects the atmosphere thing was recently debunked.


What was the evidence? We know that magnetic fields can shield radiation- what was their theory?
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:55:38 AM EST
Don't see the point of going anywhere in space in person. Send unmanned probes and robots instead.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:56:14 AM EST
Cause it's not
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 9:02:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By monkeyman:
Don't see the point of going anywhere in space in person. Send unmanned probes and robots instead.


The point is to be able to leave this place when liberal idiots completely sell out our country. Don't you want a place to go to and be free?
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 9:06:30 AM EST
Mars is the closest thing that humans could conceivably walk on, other than the Moon, and we've done that already.

Venus is a nasty, nasty place.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 9:08:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 9:10:25 AM EST by hotbiggun42]
Originally Posted By philinmedford:

Because there is actually life on Mars. Recent photos have proven it.


http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/alienhead2.jpg


Here is a better picture.


http://www.qwerk.com/images/life-on-mars1.jpg



Tell me what i'm looking at here ! that second one looks like Michelle obama but that would be impossible ,Woudnt it ?
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