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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/6/2001 6:14:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2001 6:08:21 AM EDT by Cypher214]
I will be joining the Marines in a few months. I want to shoot Expert with the M16 (and pistol preferably). How do the Marines score the shooting on qual day? I know that Army uses the pop-ups and the Navy gets to shoot the M9's at a target without being scored[:\] The Marines actually have the shots on the target scored for hit locations, correct? Am just wondering so I can really start practicing. Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 6:42:12 AM EDT
At recruit training you fire the traditional KD marksmanship course. It is 50 rounds fired at 200 (25), 300 (15) and 500 (10)m or the yard equivalent depending on which coast you go to. A hit to the black is 5 points from there, there are several rings around the targets (either 12" bulls eye at 200 and 300 slows, 36" silhouette at 200 and 300 rapids or full sized silhouette at 500m slow fire) that will be at a reduced point value all the way down to 2 points. At 200 m for in the slow fire you will shot 5 round per standing, kneeling and sitting and a 10 shot standing to sitting rapid fire with a magazine change. At 300 meters you will fire 5 rounds slow fire in the sitting position and than 10 rounds in the rapid fire from standing to prone with a magazine change. At 500 meters you will fire 10 round slow fire. There is a max of 250 points, with expert at 220 points. In the FMF you will fire a sustainment course which is a modification of the KD course with hit or miss scoring. As for pistols, you will not qual at boot with them. Only Marines whose TO billet requires them to carry a pistol will qualify with them (Officers and SNCO and a few junior Marines if their billet requires it).
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 6:53:44 AM EDT
STLRN, I see the course is different from National Match, how does it compare in difficulty? Would a NMC shooter do approx the same or better on the Marine course? Seems like it would have to be a little easier just because you can't tight-sling a stock M16.
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 7:05:37 AM EDT
I have never shot an all out nation match type course so I cannot compare the two. I know the KD course is fashioned after a NM course from like the 1900's so I would hazard a guess that the relative difficulties are about the same. I think a nation match shooter ( stripped of all the fancy shooting apparatuses and firing a stock weapon (with 3 round burst effecting the trigger pull ) and issue M855 ball ammo may still have a slight advantage over the average Marine since they may have more experience with long range shooting. But that is a subjective thing and you will find some Marines that may able to shoot to the NM levels of proficiency. On the boot camp/TBS KD course you can use a loop sling for everything other than the 200 off hand.
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 7:09:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: On the boot camp/TBS KD course you can use a loop sling for everything other than the 200 off hand.
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Yeah, but the barrels are not floated. I can pull an AR clear off a 300 yd backer just with sling pressure. Just no way to get a reliable zero without a float tube. :(
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 7:12:31 AM EDT
Yes and no, the A2 barrel can be pulled off slightly, but we teach the Marines to mark the sling (white thread or chalk works best) so they apply the same pressure each time. I use to have my sling so tight I lost feeling in my fingers of my support hand, yet could still shoot a possible at the 300 rapids and often 9 out of 10 at the 500.
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 7:19:31 AM EDT
That's neat STLRN. I'll have to find someone around here who can do that (or maybe I need to just get a match upper[:(]). I'm just starting out and it was quite frustrating for me to have to put the elevation dial on 600 just to get on paper at 300. Especially since I was using a detachable carry handle that only went to 600! I had to really crank down on the front sight and hold 3/4 of the way up the target to get 600yd hits!
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 7:30:26 AM EDT
It sound like some of your problems are in your weapon, if you have to put 600 m elevation on it to get on paper at 300 m, you might want to check if you have the correct type of removable carrying handle/sights. I have read some where that there are slight differences in various manufactures and that causes that very problem. Also in recent test done by the Marine Corps there is a retention of zero problem with the removable carrying handles on some of the M4s we bought, so that may also be an issue.
Link Posted: 11/6/2001 8:32:49 AM EDT
Cypher, STRLN is correct. The best type of practice you could do is to participate in a few Service Rifle matches. It is a discipline very similar to the Marine Corps KD (Known Distance) Course. Try to find a club with a new Service Rifle shooter intro course like the one put on by the Oak Ridge Sportsman’s Association [url] http://orsa.nxs.net/orsa/programs_hp.cfm[/url] in TN. You can learn a lot from a good coach. While a free floated barrel is required to be competitive in Service Rifle matches, consistency in position and sling tension will overcome any shift in zero induced by sling tension on the M16A1 or A2. That and determining your zero for the various positions and distance and remembering to apply that zero value to the sights prior to shooting will do you well on a KD Course.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 5:49:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 5:45:49 AM EDT by SgtKiwi]
Just to add to the comments thus far, the USMC rifle/pistol matches course of fire (to the best of my recollection) is as follows: Rifle: 200 meters (12 in. bullseye) - 20 rds offhand (standing) 10 rds rapid (60 sec.) mandatory mag change (fired from sitting position) 300 meters (12 in. bullseye) - 10 rds rapid (60 sec.) (fired from prone) 500 meters (36 in. bullseye) 20 rds. prone Pistol - All rds. fired from the 25 yard line one handed. slow fire - 10 rds. in 10 minutes sustained fire - 5 rds. in 20 sec. (done twice) rapid fire - 5 rds. in 10 seconds (also done twice) target used is the standard "10x" bullseye. I definately agree with the previous comments about the loop sling. I've never competed with anything but a stock M16, but the groups in rapid fire were so tight we used golf tees to spot the shots. edited to add that the only shots scored are 5's and 4's... anything else is considered a miss. Semper Fi
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 6:12:39 AM EDT
Sgt. Kiwi, No disrespect, just curious but when was the last time you qualed with the pistol? That course of fire seems unfamilar to me since we never shot single handed. I qualed with the pistol (M-9) three months ago and as I recall here was the COF. Times and rounds probably a little off due to memory loss and not really paying attention. 1. 7 yards 3 seconds double taps. Total of 6 from tactical carry. 2. 15 yard line 6 seconds? rapid fire (I believe 3 rounds) with mag change. All shot from tactical carry. Repeat 3 times? 3. 25 yard line slow fire from tactical carry. Are allowed to fire in SA mode (cock the hammer prior to discharge). Either 10 or 15 rounds. Target was 10x bullseye. I know I'm forgetting some things but this is what I remember. Hope it helps.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 6:30:08 AM EDT
Do the Marines use the NM style slings with shooting mits, or is it the basic nylon sling? Also, does anybody know the percentages of how many score expert, sharpshooter, and marksman in a given class?
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 7:52:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By USMC: Sgt. Kiwi, No disrespect, just curious but when was the last time you qualed with the pistol? That course of fire seems unfamilar to me since we never shot single handed. I qualed with the pistol (M-9) three months ago and as I recall here was the COF. Times and rounds probably a little off due to memory loss and not really paying attention. 1. 7 yards 3 seconds double taps. Total of 6 from tactical carry. 2. 15 yard line 6 seconds? rapid fire (I believe 3 rounds) with mag change. All shot from tactical carry. Repeat 3 times? 3. 25 yard line slow fire from tactical carry. Are allowed to fire in SA mode (cock the hammer prior to discharge). Either 10 or 15 rounds. Target was 10x bullseye. I know I'm forgetting some things but this is what I remember. Hope it helps.
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USMC, Sorry for the confusion if you missed it, I was talking about the [b]match[/b] course of fire, not the standard 400 point course.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 7:55:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SliPkNoT: Do the Marines use the NM style slings with shooting mits, or is it the basic nylon sling? Also, does anybody know the percentages of how many score expert, sharpshooter, and marksman in a given class?
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When I was in, we used the M-14 style sling (nylon) with the em-buckle (sp?) for regular duty/qualification. In the matches we were allowed to use mits, leather slings, shooting jackets, etc...
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:34:12 AM EDT
CYPHER 214 you'll be just fine and rifles are handed out randomly so get your dope and those military slings are a little tough to use so just snug it up enough to make yourself steady and relax stick with basics for marksmanship and you'll pull through.Use the mit if available and work on your zero's.listen to your pmi and pay attention to the wind.Good luck and SEMPER FI
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 2:23:32 PM EDT
Marine Corps pistol course of fire Stage One 25 yds 10 min 15 rounds Slow Fire Single Action Stage Two 7 yds 3 sec 1 round Quick Fire Double action x 5 Stage Three 7 yds 4 sec 2 rounds Quick Reaction (draw from holster Double to Single action x 4 Stage Four 15 yds 20 sec 3 rounds per mag 2 mags Sustained Fire Double/Single with mag change x 2 By the MCRP if the weapon is not in the low carry/ready it will be holstered (this is not enforced often) You are no longer allowed to use a shooting jacket or eye patch while firing intial or sustainment training. You can use a glove (no mitt) on none firing hand. The sling is the standard issue nylon-cotton with sling keeper and M-buckle.
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