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Posted: 10/6/2007 11:49:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 11:56:22 AM EST by VarmintKilla]
Too early to comment, but on the face of it, sounds like the guy should have just put the gun down when he was told and he would have been fine.

Link
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 11:54:21 AM EST
Suicide by cop.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 11:55:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 11:55:57 AM EST by badfish274]

www.turnto23.com/news/14276864/detail.html

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. -- A man holding a replica toy gun was shot to death by a pair of Bakersfield police officers after they found him standing on the sidewalk of a south Bakersfield street early Friday morning.

According to the Bakersfield Police Department, Frank Ramos Sr., 49, made a 911 call from his home on Auberry Ave. at 1:33 a.m., claiming there was a man outside with a gun.

The 911 dispatcher said they could hear Ramos repeatedly saying, "Shoot someone..." over the phone. The dispatcher called back and Ramos' son answered and said Ramos went for a walk.

A patrol car drove into the neighborhood on Faith avenue. Police officers in the car saw Ramos on the sidewalk.

They flashed their spotlight at him. When they pulled up to Ramos, police said Ramos pulled out the replica toy gun and pointed it at officers Robert Robles and Robert Pair.

The officers got out of the car and after several orders for him to drop the toy gun, Robles and Pair both fired at Ramos, striking him several times.

Ramos was taken to Kern Medical Center, where he died in the operating room.

His family said they don't know how or why he ended up with a toy gun.

Bakersfield.com reports the man's wife, Louisa Ramos, is seeking an attorney. She said her husband called the police, and that he was trying to scare away someone he thought was breaking into his car. The news site also mentioned the family said there was an orange tip to the toy gun, so officers should have known the gun was a fake.

Both officers are on paid administrative leave.

ABC23 will continue to update this story as it develops.



Funny, I don't see an orange tip on the gun.

Put the gun down, jackass.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:00:00 PM EST
Ok I smell chlorine in the gene pool. Don't try to scare people with a toy gun. Hell, you don't even scare people with a real gun. And when the good guys show up (WHICH YOU KNEW WERE COMING BECAUSE YOUR DUMBASS CALLED THEM) don't wave any sort of gun in their direction.

Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:03:10 PM EST
It does sound like a suicide by cop situation.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:05:59 PM EST
Sounds like a good case of "cleansing the gene pool."
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:12:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jeeper21:
It does sound like a suicide by cop situation.


What a pussy. Shouldn't pawn your dirty work off on the cops.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:14:34 PM EST
It would appear that the "victim" and his wife are both idiots.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:16:26 PM EST
Orange tip or no orange tip or bright goddamn purple, if they think it's real and are telling you to put it down, FFS do it.

In before the generalizations about airsoft.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:17:26 PM EST

When they pulled up to Ramos, police said Ramos pulled out the replica toy gun and pointed it at officers Robert Robles and Robert Pair.

The officers got out of the car and after several orders for him to drop the toy gun, Robles and Pair both fired at Ramos, striking him several times.


1.) Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't shoot sooner.

2.) Can't always dis police marksmanship.

That's some powerful stupid there.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:18:49 PM EST

"Never point a loaded gun at anyone" is not a hard and fast rule.

However,

"Never point a toy or unloaded gun at someone" is.

-Z
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 1:19:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 1:22:22 PM EST by sav_carguy]
Fuck that guy. Pointing anything that looks like a weapon at police is a bad idea. Sounds like he planned to get shot by the cops because he didn't want to do it himself.

ETA - Either that , or he planned for the cops to wound , but not kill him , so that he could try and score a civil suit against the police dept.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:10:55 PM EST
A few years back I was working my side EMS job as a flight paramedic. Got a call for an "officer involved" shooting actually quite close to our base. We lift off and land at an improved helipad about a minute away. EMS shows up and we get in the back to find the patient in the back.

Story--he was walking a dog and pointing a pistol at folks--the pistol was fake, no ornage tip, and even had a detachable magazine. police show up--demand he drop the weapon, etc.. He points the weapon at the po-po--po-po shoots.

Well, the guy looked actually quite clean-cut--so much so that I initially thought he might have been an off-duty PD office that was shot. So, I ask him his name--he repies that he is schizophrenic. Nice.

I ask again--he replies that it wasn't a real gun.

We load in into the aircraft. We decide to intubate him--he is going into distress after being shot twice in the chest. We give him meds and the last thing he says before he goes under--"Did I do something wrong?".

Turns out those were his last words, period.

Dumbass.

pato
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:15:50 PM EST


It was 1:33am.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:20:28 PM EST
Sucks to be a dumbass.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:22:22 PM EST
If that isn't a clear-cut suicide by cop, I don't know what is. Now the cops get to go through a bunch of shit over some douche, poor guys.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:22:41 PM EST
I investigated an eerily similar case, involving a replica S&W Mod. 29 just like the one in the photo.

Good shoot. Bad evening for the officer.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:35:05 PM EST
Why couldn't they just shoot him in the paw?

oops, wrong thread.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:51:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 2:53:09 PM EST by Hebrew_Battle_Rifle]

Originally Posted By badfish274:
www.turnto23.com/news/14276864/detail.html

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. --

The officers got out of the car and after several orders for him to drop the toy gun, Robles and Pair both fired at Ramos, striking him several times.

Ramos was taken to Kern Medical Center, where he died in the operating room.

Funny, I don't see an orange tip on the gun.

Put the gun down, jackass.



This is a blatant example of bias reporting. There is no way that those two officers were telling him to drop that "toy gun."

As reported, the shooting is justified. Tragic, but justified.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:59:41 PM EST
Darwin wins again.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:00:37 AM EST
I read somewhere(might have been one of the internets)that up to 40% of OIS are,essentially,suicide by cop.
Makes sense when you read about a suspect's behaviors prior to being shot,and you're left scratching your head"What was he thinking?"
On a purely speculative note...We often look at Officer's hesitation to shoot in some situations.I think the Officer may be picking up non-verbal clues from the suspect,but time-pressure doesn't allow him to interpret them.
This is one of the beauties of the much maligned TASER-when supported by deadly force,there's no need to hesitate.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:06:19 AM EST
Yup. Waiving your plastic "dirty harry" revolver at cops will earn you a visit from mister darwin award.

... duh.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:06:46 AM EST
Good shoot. Orange tip or not, if it looks like a gun, it's a freakin' gun. Gangbangers have been known to spray the tips of their guns orange, green, yellow, etc, etc to make LEOs think they have a toy gun. Not talking about supersoakers, but toy guns that look pretty realistic.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:18:59 AM EST
Years ago my great uncle, a Texas Ranger, shot a man with a toy gun. It really tore him up.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:27:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 6:30:26 AM EST by Bob1984]

Originally Posted By RSP:
Orange tip or no orange tip or bright goddamn purple, if they think it's real and are telling you to put it down, FFS do it.

In before the generalizations about airsoft.


That thing isn't even airsoft, but I can see why the cops wouldn't have known it was a toy. Sounds like suicide by cop to me. The cops didn't have much choice besides shooting him, unfortunately.

No one in their right mind would try to scare someone off with a toy gun that still has an orange tip. It's fucking obvious that he removed it.

BTW, the orange tip thing is a Department Of Commerce deal and a Customs deal. it has to be there on any replica gun being imported into the US. It has to be there if a replica gun is being transported within interstate commerce or some crap like that. It is legal to remove the orange tip for movie productions and display purposes.

There's a gray area concerning traditional airguns (not just airsoft) with regards to the orange tip thing. There are pellet guns that have orange tips and pellet guns that do not, and not all of them are toys, either. This is a very dangerous thing, IMO.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:33:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:39:20 AM EST
Pretty good restraint shown by the officers. When the gun got pointed the only speaking should have been the sidearms. Actions beat reactions EVERY TIME.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:40:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:41:37 AM EST
Thoughts and prayers to the officers and thier familys.

It might be a justified shoot, but there is never a "Good" shoot.

These guys and thier familys will be going through hell and a million lawyers over the next several years.
Not to mention the media smear campaign that is already underway.

Did jumping off bridges go out of style?

S-28
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:44:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By Jeeper21:
It does sound like a suicide by cop situation.


What a pussy. Shouldn't pawn your dirty work off on the cops.


No shit way to fuck up another human life because you are to much of a pussy to live life
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 7:01:04 AM EST
So let me get this right, at 2 AM you call the cops to say there is a man with a gun outside your house. You hang up on the 911 dispatcher and have your son answer when they call back. You then leave your house and walk outside with a toy gun. The police show up (going to a man with a gun call) and tell you to drop the gun. You point the gun at him and get shot.

Yep, he was fatally stupid.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:12:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Years ago my great uncle, a Texas Ranger, shot a man with a toy gun. It really tore him up.


Was it one of those toy guns that shoots little plastic bullets? Or maybe those plastic darts with the rubber suction cups on the tip? Neither one would cause permanent damage unless they struck an unprotected eye. Why did your great uncle get tore up over it? Did the man call your uncle bad names for shooting him with a toy gun?
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:41:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Years ago my great uncle, a Texas Ranger, shot a man with a toy gun. It really tore him up.


Was it one of those toy guns that shoots little plastic bullets? Or maybe those plastic darts with the rubber suction cups on the tip? Neither one would cause permanent damage unless they struck an unprotected eye. Why did your great uncle get tore up over it? Did the man call your uncle bad names for shooting him with a toy gun?


Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:10:09 AM EST
stupid hurts
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:25:00 AM EST
I almost shot an 11 year old kid with toy gun. (Daisy BB gun. Looked just like a S&W 9mm.)

Fifteen years later, that memory still sends shivers down my spine.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:39:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 11:40:19 AM EST by kap_x]
If you use a toy gun like a real gun, for instance rob a bank with a toy gun, IIRC legally it's the same as doing it with a real gun.

You point a toy gun (especially with no orange tip) at a cop--or me, for that matter,, you will get shot, and rightfully so.
Good riddance.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:50:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By runcible:
I almost shot an 11 year old kid with toy gun. (Daisy BB gun. Looked just like a S&W 9mm.)

Fifteen years later, that memory still sends shivers down my spine.




A Florida member was drawn down on by a teenager with a pellet gun last year, and that kid probably will never know how close he came to meeting destiny in the middle of the asphalt.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:53:17 AM EST
dumbass.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:53:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By kap_x:
If you use a toy gun like a real gun, for instance rob a bank with a toy gun, IIRC legally it's the same as doing it with a real gun.

You point a toy gun (especially with no orange tip) at a cop--or me, for that matter,, you will get shot, and rightfully so.
Good riddance.


Yep, you're correct. For the purpose of the law, if it looks like a gun, it's treated like a gun.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:12:02 PM EST
Last year, in Sunrise, Florida, we had a kid with a real gun (Glock 19) draw down on the cashier at our range and tell him (the cashier) it was loaded and that he (the gunman) was gonna fuckin' kill him. Guy had the Glock jammed up under the cashier's chin.

Another RO and myself (unarmed as per county policy) charged out in front of the lobby and the kid took off in his truck. Sunrise PD shows up and pulls the kid over.

They let the kid (who cooincedentally had a PBA badge on the license plate of his vehicle, and 'high-fived' one of the responding officers) leave, taking his Glock with him.

The highly-trained Sergeant in charge of officer marksmanship training (Sgt Barry Schwartz) then informed us that "Even if someone points a REAL gun at you AND TELLS YOU IT'S LOADED, UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY SEE THEM INSERT A LOADED MAG AND RACK THE SLIDE YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THE GUN IS EMPTY AND NOT A THREAT."

I shit you not. He said the kid broke no laws because when they took the gun out of his truck it was unloaded, with a mag and a loose round laying on the poassenger seat.

For three months we complained to the Sunrise PD. They maintained that a gun wasn't a threat (to ANYONE ????) unless you personally saw the perpetrator load the gun. This line of shit from the training sergeant. The same guy who trains the responding PD at our range, no less.

I wonder how the PD would have respondied if they had a Glock shoved in their face during, say, a traffic stop ? Or like this poor numbnuts, waving a realistic-looking toy gun ? I'll bet they would have responded the way the officers did in this case. A totally justified shooting.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:14:56 PM EST
RevolverRO, did you ever go anywhere with that? I remember it. Chain of command, or anything?
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:16:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By RevolverRO:
Last year, in Sunrise, Florida, we had a kid with a real gun (Glock 19) draw down on the cashier at our range and tell him (the cashier) it was loaded and that he (the gunman) was gonna fuckin' kill him. Guy had the Glock jammed up under the cashier's chin.

Another RO and myself (unarmed as per county policy) charged out in front of the lobby and the kid took off in his truck. Sunrise PD shows up and pulls the kid over.

They let the kid (who cooincedentally had a PBA badge on the license plate of his vehicle, and 'high-fived' one of the responding officers) leave, taking his Glock with him.

The highly-trained Sergeant in charge of officer marksmanship training (Sgt Barry Schwartz) then informed us that "Even if someone points a REAL gun at you AND TELLS YOU IT'S LOADED, UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY SEE THEM INSERT A LOADED MAG AND RACK THE SLIDE YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THE GUN IS EMPTY AND NOT A THREAT."

I shit you not. He said the kid broke no laws because when they took the gun out of his truck it was unloaded, with a mag and a loose round laying on the poassenger seat.

For three months we complained to the Sunrise PD. They maintained that a gun wasn't a threat (to ANYONE ????) unless you personally saw the perpetrator load the gun. This line of shit from the training sergeant. The same guy who trains the responding PD at our range, no less.

I wonder how the PD would have respondied if they had a Glock shoved in their face during, say, a traffic stop ? Or like this poor numbnuts, waving a realistic-looking toy gun ? I'll bet they would have responded the way the officers did in this case. A totally justified shooting.


Is there a link to this story?
Not saying anything, but I find that level of stupidity incredulous and would like to see if anyone told the press about it.

pato
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:17:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:

Originally Posted By runcible:
I almost shot an 11 year old kid with toy gun. (Daisy BB gun. Looked just like a S&W 9mm.)

Fifteen years later, that memory still sends shivers down my spine.



Why were you going to shoot a kid with a toy gun? What made you change your mind about shooting him with a toy gun? Were you out of BBs?



No no, see, the kid had the toy gun. I had a real gun. Then...


Hey... wait minute. You're just messin' with me!
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:19:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By RevolverRO:
Last year, in Sunrise, Florida, we had a kid with a real gun (Glock 19) draw down on the cashier at our range and tell him (the cashier) it was loaded and that he (the gunman) was gonna fuckin' kill him. Guy had the Glock jammed up under the cashier's chin.

Another RO and myself (unarmed as per county policy) charged out in front of the lobby and the kid took off in his truck. Sunrise PD shows up and pulls the kid over.

They let the kid (who cooincedentally had a PBA badge on the license plate of his vehicle, and 'high-fived' one of the responding officers) leave, taking his Glock with him.

The highly-trained Sergeant in charge of officer marksmanship training (Sgt Barry Schwartz) then informed us that "Even if someone points a REAL gun at you AND TELLS YOU IT'S LOADED, UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY SEE THEM INSERT A LOADED MAG AND RACK THE SLIDE YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THE GUN IS EMPTY AND NOT A THREAT."

I shit you not. He said the kid broke no laws because when they took the gun out of his truck it was unloaded, with a mag and a loose round laying on the poassenger seat.

For three months we complained to the Sunrise PD. They maintained that a gun wasn't a threat (to ANYONE ????) unless you personally saw the perpetrator load the gun. This line of shit from the training sergeant. The same guy who trains the responding PD at our range, no less.

I wonder how the PD would have respondied if they had a Glock shoved in their face during, say, a traffic stop ? Or like this poor numbnuts, waving a realistic-looking toy gun ? I'll bet they would have responded the way the officers did in this case. A totally justified shooting.



If true... just how long have the good people of the Sunrise PD been smoking crack?
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:26:34 PM EST
And people question Darwin....

Point that thing at me and you're liable to be shot. And since I'm not PD, I am sure as HELL not yelling "Put it down" first.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:30:38 PM EST
Pfft. If I've learned anything from hollywood is that you could just ninja kick the weapon out of his hand.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:49:31 PM EST
You can't always count on the "orange tip" thing. There have been cases of gang members painting the tips of real guns orange, or painting/taping their real guns to look like training "red guns," just to make a police officer hesitate that split second...

It's not a good idea to point any kind of gun at the police.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:51:26 PM EST
Why didn't they just try to shoot it out of his hand?

I love that one.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 5:08:01 PM EST

The news site also mentioned the family said there was an orange tip to the toy gun, so officers should have known the gun was a fake.


That's comedy gold right there.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 5:30:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By C-4:

The news site also mentioned the family said there was an orange tip to the toy gun, so officers should have known the gun was a fake.


That's comedy gold right there.



Yeah... no kidding. 1:33 AM was it? Sure... that's orange tip will be clearly visible in almost complete darkness...
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:46:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 6:47:50 PM EST by Hebrew_Battle_Rifle]
I have no desire to harm anyone ever again. But, I don't care if it has pink ribbons and little kitty stickers all over it, if it LOOKS like a gun and you aim it in my direction, you had better be wearin' kevlar skivvies cuz the gunfight is on.
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