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Posted: 8/19/2005 11:15:22 AM EDT
From the St. Louis Post Dispatch

It's not what Peter Skinner did, but rather what he didn't do, that landed him in jail.
Skinner saw, but did not help, a Wood River police officer subdue a teen suspected of stealing a car.

And that is why Skinner, 41, is scheduled to appear in court Aug. 26 to face a misdemeanor charge of refusing to aid an officer.
"Why I'm involved as anything but a witness is beyond me," he said Wednesday in an interview in his apartment in Wood River.

His troubles began Aug. 4, shortly before 3 p.m., as he walked to a convenience store.

That's when a teen boy, who was with another boy and a girl, asked him to help change a tire.

So Skinner helped put on the spare and walked away, he said.

He was headed to the store, but decided to turn around after about a minute and head back to his apartment in the 100 block of Thompson Street to check on some pork steaks in his oven.

That's when he saw a police officer, identified in court documents as Officer Darrell Jose, tackle the boy.

Jose was on top of the boy, Skinner said. But the boy kept struggling.

Skinner said he yelled for the boy to stop, but that the officer clearly was in control.

"The cop was OK, it looked like to me," Skinner said.

It wasn't long before other officers arrived, and Skinner started walking away to go home.

That's when Jose yelled for Skinner to stop, Skinner said.

Jose told the officers that he'd asked Skinner for help, but that Skinner had done nothing, Skinner said.

So he was cuffed, put in a police car and taken to the Wood River holding cell, where he sat for four hours until his father bailed him out.

A Jerseyville man had reported the car, a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am, stolen from Alton roughly three hours earlier, according to a statement issued by Wood River police.

Jose saw the car, and a teen fled when the officer approached.

The officer caught the boy, and a struggle ensued in which the boy tried to take the officer's gun, police said.

The statement did not mention Skinner or Jose by name, but said that because the officer was the only officer at the scene, he requested help from a nearby man, who refused.

Skinner disputed that claim, saying the officer never asked for help. "He was well in charge of that situation," Skinner said.

Illinois law states that a person must help an officer who asks for help "apprehending a person whom the officer is authorized to apprehend."

Not obeying this law is considered a petty offense. That means that if Skinner is convicted, he will not face any jail time and cannot be fined more than $1,000.

But Skinner maintains the charge is unfair because the officer never asked for help. He also said he plans to file a complaint of police misconduct against the Wood River department.


"I didn't deserve this," Skinner said of his legal woes. "Not in any way, shape or form."


Leaving aside issues of liability and the Illinois law itself, what sort of help would you expect from a civilian in a case like this? How do you sort out the good guys from the bad guys if you are the back-up just arriving on the scene (aside from the officer of course)?

If it were me (as a civilian) I would have asked him if he needed help if it appeared that he could use it, but I wouldn't want to get in the way of him doing his job. Where do you draw the line?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 12:33:01 PM EDT
The Officers first mistake was not waiting for backup before initating an arrest on car theives.

Aside from that, I wouldn't ask anyone to help me effect an arrest because that opens a door to far too much liability for me and my department.

Then again, we don't know the entire story so its not easy to give a full opinion on the Officers actions.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:45:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IamDash:
The Officers first mistake was not waiting for backup before initating an arrest on car theives.
actions.




No shit. Somebody needs to go back and review their felony arrest procedures.

As far as commanding citizens to aid me....not likely. You never know who's who.



Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:09:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:

Originally Posted By IamDash:
The Officers first mistake was not waiting for backup before initating an arrest on car theives.
actions.




No shit. Somebody needs to go back and review their felony arrest procedures.

As far as commanding citizens to aid me....not likely. You never know who's who.



Sheep




IamDash, You are correct. If at all possible an officer should wait for back-up. A desperate man is tougher to handle, regardless of his size. Although, there are rare times when an arrest/apprehension has to be immediately made(even when you're still alone).

In Florida, If I told somebody to assist me and if he walked away, he would indeed be arrested for "Resisting an Officer without Violence" F.S.S. 843.02 (a misdemeanor).

But I wouldn't dare make that arrest unless I was sure the person summoned to assist me clearly refused my orders. In this story, the defendant is claiming he didn't hear the officer ask or command assistance.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:22:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 4:26:28 PM EDT by Bucky145]
This was in Illinois? Geez......I'm sure there are two sides to this story but to arrest a witness for not helping? WOW! I'm sure the officer was pissed IF he asked for help and did not get the help he thought he should get. So, the officer brings out a BS charge. What if this guy would have "helped the officer" and that help was not asked for by this officer. Would this officer then be arresting this guy for obstructing? The general public does not know when, if, or how to help officers most of the time. Sounds to me like he should have taken his car theft prisoner and get a written statement from this man to get a better case for the attempted disarming of a police officer/resisting a police officer/battery to a police officer. Or go get the other bad guys from the stolen car and forget about this petty charge.

Bottom line...Call for help from the boys/girls in blue. A citizen in not trained to combat someone attempting to disarm a police officer. Although I would like to see the officers face after asking for help from a citizen and watch that citizen recognize the deadly force threat and open fire.

Hmmmm that would be interesting for both that officer and the PD.

Edit: After re reading this, I mean no disrespect when I say citizen. Its a bad habit.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:33:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 4:37:35 PM EDT by sysop]
I was not aware that untrained civilians were obligated to provide assistance to LEO's but apparently this is not the case in IL. So what happens when a civilian is asked to help apprehend an armed suspect and is killed or injured?



Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:35:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:
I was not aware that untrained civilians were obligated to provide assistance to LEO's.

Are they going to deputize all the citizens of IL?

This is bullshit.



Most, if not all, states have a Duty to Obey/Assist Law Enforcement Officers.

I can deputize anyone I want, at anytime to assist me in the performance of my duties. Every state has a law like this.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:38:16 PM EDT
What court ruled lately that the police do not have an obligation to protect a citizen..?

And they want me to help them..?

B.S.

Having said that, if it was very clear that the officer’s life was in danger I probably would help, and most likely get in trouble for it. I am of course, just a lowly civilian.

C.g...
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:46:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 4:53:48 PM EDT by sysop]

Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:

Originally Posted By sysop:
I was not aware that untrained civilians were obligated to provide assistance to LEO's.

Are they going to deputize all the citizens of IL?

This is bullshit.



Most, if not all, states have a Duty to Obey/Assist Law Enforcement Officers.

I can deputize anyone I want, at anytime to assist me in the performance of my duties. Every state has a law like this.

Sheep



Obey is one thing, risk death or injury is another thing entirely. Having said as much I doubt I would hesitate to aid LEO's or even wait for them request aid under most circumstances.

That does not mean I can be deputized against my will. I am not obligated to do anything but stay the hell out of the way. I live in AZ and have a CCW.

I can't even begin to recall how many times I have read Armed Citizen stories about non-LEO's who defended themselves and the final note was an LEO saying something like, X was lucky, it's always dangerous when a civilian takes the law in their own hands. Fortunately everything turn out alright this time but we recomend leaving law enforcement up to the professionals.

So now you want it both ways.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:53:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CoyoteGray:
What court ruled lately that the police do not have an obligation to protect a citizen..?

And they want me to help them..?

B.S.

Having said that, if it was very clear that the officer’s life was in danger I probably would help, and most likely get in trouble for it. I am of course, just a lowly civilian.

C.g...



Ok say an officer calls for a non-LEO to assist and the non-LEO ends up getting killed or injured or the non-LEO uses excesive force causing death or injury to the suspect.

The officer is trying to subdue a suspect and calls for help so joe civilian walks up and pops a cap in the head of the suspect. Well the struggle is now over. The suspect is subdued. What then?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:55:38 PM EDT



Obey is one thing, risk death or injury is another thing entirely. Having said as much I doubt I would hesitate to aid LEO's or even wait for them request aid under most circumstances.

That does not mean I can be deputized against my will. I am not obligated to do anything but stay the hell out of the way.

I can't even begin to recall how many times I have read Armed Citizen stories about non-LEO's who defended themselves and the final note was an LEO saying something like, X was lucky, it's always dangerous when a civilian takes the law in their own hands. Fortunately everything turn out alright this time but we recomend leaving law enforcement up to the professionals.

So now you want it both ways.

JBT



Sysop,

You make a good point. But the "taking the law in their own hands" is not the issue. The issue is that an officer requested assistance. I don't know about The People's Democratic Repubic of Illinois, but I do know in Florida one can be arrested and actually charged with "Resisting an Officer" if they refuse with a LEO's order to assist them.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:56:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 5:17:21 PM EDT by SheepDog_556]

Originally Posted By sysop:
Obey is one thing, risk death or injury is another thing entirely. Having said as much I doubt I would hesitate to aid LEO's or even wait for them request aid under most circumstances.

That does not mean I can be deputized against my will. I am not obligated to do anything but stay the hell out of the way. I live in AZ and have a CCW.

I can't even begin to recall how many times I have read Armed Citizen stories about non-LEO's who defended themselves and the final note was an LEO saying something like, X was lucky, it's always dangerous when a civilian takes the law in their own hands. Fortunately everything turn out alright this time but we recomend leaving law enforcement up to the professionals.

So now you want it both ways.

JBT



Listen [edited out to maintain decorum] , I never said anything about wanting it both ways. I explained what the law was and what it allowed me to do. No where did I say I agreed with any of this. Where did I say leave law enforcement to the professionals, or that armed citizens who CCW are dangerous kooks who want to take the law into their own hands?

Technically, you CAN be deputized against your own will AND charged with a crime should you fail to obey.

Before you go running off at the yap, know who you are talking too.

I see you edited out your JBT comment. Nice try.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:00:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 5:09:25 PM EDT by SpoiledBySig]



Ok say an officer calls for a non-LEO to assist and the non-LEO ends up getting killed or injured or the non-LEO uses excesive force causing death or injury to the suspect.

The officer is trying to subdue a suspect and calls for help so joe civilian walks up and pops a cap in the head of the suspect. Well the struggle is now over. The suspect is subdued. What then?



Like usual, the case is investigated (because it is a Death case) and the facts are reviewed. I'm sure if "Deadly force" was deemed necessary, the officer you assisted would report these facts. Just like if you had to use necessary deadly force in a situation with no Officer present...You have have to articulate the facts that you deemed it necessary to use deadly force. A State Attorney inquiry board (or Grand Jury if no officer were present) would simply review these facts (your statements and all evidence at the crime scene).he
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:02:38 PM EDT
So in a case like this what kind of liability would I face if I got involved?

I have no problem helping if asked, especialy if I see the cop is in danger, but I don't want to end up getting sued or thrown in jail.

So they are on the ground wrestling, and I see the badguy has his hand on the cops gun and is about to get control of it....

The cops screams Help me...

I run over and boot the badguy in the chin because it seems like the quickest wat to end this. His neck is broken and now he's a criple. Can I get sued for this? or go to jail for using excessive force?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:03:22 PM EDT
My biggest concern would be when back up arrives and has no idea who I am.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:07:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:
So in a case like this what kind of liability would I face if I got involved?

I have no problem helping if asked, especialy if I see the cop is in danger, but I don't want to end up getting sued or thrown in jail.

So they are on the ground wrestling, and I see the badguy has his hand on the cops gun and is about to get control of it....

The cops screams Help me...

I run over and boot the badguy in the chin because it seems like the quickest wat to end this. His neck is broken and now he's a criple. Can I get sued for this? or go to jail for using excessive force?



You are immune from any liability when being summoned for aid by an officer. Make no mistake, your actions would be reviewed.

I have worked cases where storeowners have been robbed at gunpoint and shot at and have shot and killed the armed suspect (on videotape even)and still the cases are reviewed by a Grand Jury. Any actions that somebody takes involving deadly force, whether assisting an officer or self defense, are always reviewed and scrutinized.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:08:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:
So in a case like this what kind of liability would I face if I got involved?

I have no problem helping if asked, especialy if I see the cop is in danger, but I don't want to end up getting sued or thrown in jail.

So they are on the ground wrestling, and I see the badguy has his hand on the cops gun and is about to get control of it....

The cops screams Help me...

I run over and boot the badguy in the chin because it seems like the quickest wat to end this. His neck is broken and now he's a criple. Can I get sued for this? or go to jail for using excessive force?



If I am struggling with a badguy, I yell for you to help me and you run over and clobber him with a bat, you will get a hearty handshake and a job well-done.

If the shit is that deep that I need additional help and cannot wait for back-up, pretty much anything you do is ok by me.

The best advice is to ASK the cop what he wants you to do while you are running over to help...then do that...nothing more, nothing less.

If I ask you to help and you don't....no skin off my nose. I undertand the concerns you have about prosecution, not to mention liability. I certainly wouldn't arrest you, but that's just me. Honestly, there aren't many cops like me left around.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:09:22 PM EDT
Unless my life is is absolute danger i wouldnt even ask for help ..you can expect civilian's to jump right in unarmed and untrained
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:13:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:
Honestly, there aren't many cops like me left around.


Sheep




....and you seem like a reasonable officer to me Sheep!
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:14:25 PM EDT
Yeah, my bad, my apologies. I mistook your Sheep signature as a statement. So I thought JBT would be an appropriate reply. When I realized the mistake I edited it. I'm a little tired today so how bought you be perfect for a while.

Now you can edit out the "Dipstick" and we'll try to keep this civil.

There may be a law that says you can techincally deputize a civilian against their will but until you've done it.............................

Before you go deputizing know who you are talking too.

As a civilian I am obligated to obey the law nothing more.

Like I said, if I were asked to help I would probably not hesitate but that depends largely on the litigating or mitigating circumstances.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:18:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:

Originally Posted By MudBug:
So in a case like this what kind of liability would I face if I got involved?

I have no problem helping if asked, especialy if I see the cop is in danger, but I don't want to end up getting sued or thrown in jail.

So they are on the ground wrestling, and I see the badguy has his hand on the cops gun and is about to get control of it....

The cops screams Help me...

I run over and boot the badguy in the chin because it seems like the quickest wat to end this. His neck is broken and now he's a criple. Can I get sued for this? or go to jail for using excessive force?



If I am struggling with a badguy, I yell for you to help me and you run over and clobber him with a bat, you will get a hearty handshake and a job well-done.

If the shit is that deep that I need additional help and cannot wait for back-up, pretty much anything you do is ok by me.

The best advice is to ASK the cop what he wants you to do while you are running over to help...then do that...nothing more, nothing less.

If I ask you to help and you don't....no skin off my nose. I undertand the concerns you have about prosecution, not to mention liability. I certainly wouldn't arrest you, but that's just me. Honestly, there aren't many cops like me left around.


Sheep



Plus 1. Hell, if I'm off duty I will help, and have helped another LEO but will damm sure make certain they want my help before jumping into anything. No different for anyone else.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:24:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 5:30:07 PM EDT by SheepDog_556]

Originally Posted By sysop:
Yeah, my bad, my apologies. I mistook your Sheep signature as a statement. So I thought JBT would be an appropriate reply. When I realized the mistake I edited it. I'm a little tired today so how bought you be perfect for a while.

Now you can edit out the "Dipstick" and we'll try to keep this civil.

Done


There may be a law that says you can techincally deputize a civilian against their will but until you've done it...

I never have and I don't expect to...unless it's a totlal SHTF scenario and the natives are getting restless. I'll expect you to be familiar with the AR15 I'm going to hand you if that ever happens.


Before you go deputizing know who you are talking too.

That's the whole problem. I can't know that, which is one of the reasons I am loathe to attempt it. It could be a well-trained civillian who is CCWing....could be another off-duty cop from another town...could be some useless metro-sexual douche who will run off screaming like a little girl. That's the rub.


As a civilian I am obligated to obey the law nothing more.

Again...that's part of the problem...the Duty to Assist/Obey IS the law. I'm not saying its a good law but, as it stands, it is the law.

Here's the link: Duty to Assist

And the verbage:

13-2403. Refusing to aid a peace officer; classification

A. A person commits refusing to aid a peace officer if, upon a reasonable command by a person reasonably known to be a peace officer, such person knowingly refuses or fails to aid such peace officer in:

1. Effectuating or securing an arrest; or

2. Preventing the commission by another of any offense.

B. A person who complies with this section by aiding a peace officer shall not be held liable to any person for damages resulting therefrom, provided such person acted reasonably under the circumstances known to him at the time.

C. Refusing to aid a peace officer is a class 1 misdemeanor.



Like I said, if I were asked to help I would probably not hesitate but that depends largely on the litigating or mitigating circumstances.



Edited to seperate out my responses for easier reading.

And another thing...not bashing you...but who the hell instructed your CCW class and did NOT mention this? I spend time on this statute in EVERY CCW class I instruct....it's part of the State syllabus

Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:34:37 PM EDT
Sheepdog,

I was thinking that the subject of assisting an officer should have been covered by CCW instructors but you've just addressed the matter at hand. Spoiled
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:40:19 PM EDT

provided such person acted reasonably under the circumstances known to him at the time.


This the point of contention. What is the difference between reasonable under the circumstances for a trained LEO and an untrained non-LEO.

I'd be eager to see if this law has ever been challenged on it's constitutionality. I personally do not see how it could possibly be contitutional for an LEO to compell an un-willing non-LEO to put his/her life in danger to enforce the law.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:47:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpoiledBySig:
Sheepdog,

I was thinking that the subject of assisting an officer should have been covered by CCW instructors but you've just addressed the matter at hand.

Spoiled



Odd, I've had my CCW for almost 12 years. I attended the 16 hour initial course and two 8 hour renewals and this topic never came up. In my next renewal I think I will introduce this topic.

However, I do recall the instructors having explicitly explained that having a CCW does not oblige or compell the CCW Holder to enforce the law. They then went on to explain in detail the exact circumstances under which it is acceptable for a non-LEO to use potentially deadly force in defense of ones self or a third party.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:49:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:

provided such person acted reasonably under the circumstances known to him at the time.


This the point of contention. What is the difference between reasonable under the circumstances for a trained LEO and an untrained non-LEO.

I'd be eager to see if this law has ever been challenged on it's constitutionality. I personally do not see how it could possibly be contitutional for an LEO to compell an un-willing non-LEO to put his/her life in danger to enforce the law.



There's always a catch, right?

A reasonable act, or the perception of a reasonable person makes no disticntion between trained LEOs and untrained civillians....rather it is a general 'everyman' standard.

You got me on the compulsion thing. My personal opinion is that if someone doesn't want to help me, I probably don't want their help as nothing good can come of attempting to force the issue.

There is case law on this somewhere. I know I have seen it in the Arrest Law Bulletin. I'll see if I can dig it up.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:53:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 5:55:26 PM EDT by SpoiledBySig]

Originally Posted By sysop:

provided such person acted reasonably under the circumstances known to him at the time.


This the point of contention. What is the difference between reasonable under the circumstances for a trained LEO and an untrained non-LEO.

I'd be eager to see if this law has ever been challenged on it's constitutionality. I personally do not see how it could possibly be contitutional for an LEO to compell an un-willing non-LEO to put his/her life in danger to enforce the law.



I have utilized this particular statute(requesting aid from a citizen) on several occasions. Most times the person(s) stepped in and assisted. The only time somebody refused was during a domestic and myself and the Father-in-law were wrestling a crazed son-in-law with a large knife.

The guy was giving quite a struggle and my back-up had not yet arrived. I asked 3 firefighters several times to help us hold the guy down so I could get the knife. They (all 3) just stood watching. I didn't know if they were scared or if they just had a "it's not my job" attitude. We finally subdued the guy. I gave those 3 city firefighters hell but did not arrest them. For a long time afterwards I resented our city's firefighters. I guess I didn't want to start a war between the police and firefighters. But I never forgot about that incident.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:57:13 PM EDT
Amendment XIII - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction


Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:58:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:00:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Learn something new everydayhinking.gif
I find it hard to believe in Illinois that this matter will be prosecuted. The thought of citizens running around actually doing stuff will be too potentially terrifying.



Are you kidding?? In Illinois a Ham sandwich can be prosecuted!h.gif
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:01:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:03:12 PM EDT by SheepDog_556]

Originally Posted By sysop:

Odd, I've had my CCW for almost 12 years. I attended the 16 hour initial course and two 8 hour renewals and this topic never came up. In my next renewal I think I will introduce this topic.

However, I do recall the instructors having explicitly explained that having a CCW does not oblige or compell the CCW Holder to enforce the law. They then went on to explain in detail the exact circumstances under which it is acceptable for a non-LEO to use potentially deadly force in defense of ones self or a third party.



Honestly, most of the people instructing CCW courses don't have a very fundamental grounding in the law....even if they are ex-LEOs. Further, a lot of the practical instuction given in CCW courses is...lacking. I mean, really, how much can you cram into 8 hours? Mostly it's a guy reading verbatim the statues and there isn't a whole lot of verbal discourse about the issues.

For example...when I do CCW initials or updates, I offer to conduct a 16 hour Practical Skills and Legal Issues course I developed specifically for civillain CCW if enough of the class is interested in it. I do this for 25% of the cost of a normal 16 hour class that I instruct, because I believe that the more training you have, the better you are.

You have to remember when dealing with cops, that most of them are just normal folks with a different job and the majority are not the CSI/Law and Order Legal Beagles Hollywood would like you to believe.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:08:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpoiledBySig:
....The guy was giving quite a struggle and my back-up had not yet arrived. I asked 3 firefighters several times to help us hold the guy down so I could get the knife. They (all 3) just stood watching. I didn't know if they were scared or if they just had a "it's not my job" attitude. We finally subdued the guy. I gave those 3 city firefighters hell but did not arrest them. For a long time afterwards I resented our city's firefighters. I guess I didn't want to start a war between the police and firefighters. But I never forgot about that incident.



You're shitting me! We had a huge brawl at a night club right across the street from one of our firestations back in Chicago.

It was a total knock-down, drag-out. Definately an "ALL CALL" situation. Suddenly, I hear the big airhorns and am soaking wet....FD heard the commotion, pulled a tanker out of the bay and started to hose the crowd down after calling district on tx and asking what they could do to help.

I've never had FFs back off from assisting me. I also make it a point to know every FF in my district by name. If that had happened with FFs in my district, the other guys at their house would have been jumping in their shit nine ways to Sunday.


Sheep


Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:13:53 PM EDT
I wish we had your firefighters that night Sheep.

The ones here in South Florida (or at least in the city I worked in) were wussies. If there was a shooting or stabbing call (in certai sections of the city near M.L.K. Blvd.) Our FD would advise they were "staging in the area" (on the next block) and ask "if it was clear to enter". Half the time I'd answer, "I needed them a half hour ago dispatch...this guy is bleeding profusely and coding out".

They drove us nuts!
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:19:50 PM EDT

And another thing...not bashing you...but who the hell instructed your CCW class and did NOT mention this? I spend time on this statute in EVERY CCW class I instruct....it's part of the State syllabus.


Steve Kates for my initial and my first renewal. BTW, I worked at the store he gave his classes at for years and I often assisted him in the class during the gun safety and explanation of the different types of handguns and actions revolver vs Semi-auto, SA, DA/SA DAO, stricker fired vs hammer fired etc. Furthermore I always got a 10 minute spot before they all left for the range to plug NRA, GOA and Arizona Rifle and Pistol Association membership.

My last renewal class was taught by a named Kate who I also assisted on occasion. I don't recall her last name off the top of my head but she's a nice lady, very active in RKBA and she also let me plug the above groups in her class when she was teaching at the store I worked at.

As I stated, this particular law was never addressed or mentioned but then how often can the average individual expect to encounter a situation in which these circumstances would arrise?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:20:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpoiledBySig:
I wish we had your firefighters that night Sheep.

The ones here in South Florida (or at least in the city I worked in) were wussies. If there was a shooting or stabbing call (in certai sections of the city near M.L.K. Blvd.) Our FD would advise they were "staging in the area" (on the next block) and ask "if it was clear to enter". Half the time I'd answer, "I needed them a half hour ago dispatch...this guy is bleeding profusely and coding out".

They drove us nuts!



I've gotten some of that shit here in Az, and honestly, I can understand the "staging" part and getting the all clear, but goddammit, when I say the scene is secure and advise a safe entry route, get on the damn ball! Mostly, that is with the ambulance agencies though...FD is pretty damn good about rolling in clear or not clear.

There is talk of a basic EMT-A requirement for all officers burbling around...which honestly I think is a good idea. I'm a paramedic from my pre-cop days when I was trying to get hired.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:25:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:
As I stated, this particular law was never addressed or mentioned but then how often can the average individual expect to encounter a situation in which these circumstances would arrise?



Honestly? In the 10+ years I spent in CHAPD/CPD....I never once used it, and in the years since I have been cop here in Az in a rather large city, never used it here either.

I have had two occasions where I was getting my ass handed to me and had citizens jump into the pile to assist though. Both times I thanked them and sent them on their way with out even bothering to ask their name. Piss poor procedure and violation of S.O.P.s on my part, but fuck 'em.

Both times I was too busy fighting to yell for help. Even if I had called out, the two people who assisted me were both folks I'd never suspect of helping a cop in a million years, if you get my drift.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:05:09 PM EDT
I use to not care for our firemen. Then in 2000 I went to a domestic with three other officers ( ongoing problem). Things went real bad. Ended up with one officer down with his knee blown out crawling out of the house during the fight. One officer with some kind of heart problem, trouble breathing, brought on by the peper spray everywhere. He was not looking good but stayed in the fight.

We called for more officers, but they were coming from another town. Then a fireman stuck his head into the house and yelled you need help? I yelled yes. He jumped in as if he missed his calling as an ultimate fighter. Turns out he was the only one that would get off the rig and walked from a staging area. Damm nice guy, but never got his name. . Turn out the suspect was some kind of martial arts expert.

Damm....war story telling

I always thought that if an officer requested help from a non-LEO they were covered under the Good Samaritan laws as long as they did not willfully use excessive force, but then again I also thought that they would have to follow that same use of force scale as LEOs. Either way the officer and department I would think take on liability if the non-LEO acted in an unreasonable manor since they requested their assistance. But, I really have no clear cut clue on this.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:42:44 PM EDT

You have to remember when dealing with cops, that most of them are just normal folks with a different job and the majority are not the CSI/Law and Order Legal Beagles Hollywood would like you to believe.


Yes and no on so many levels I could write a book on it. Hollywood, CSI and Law and Order have little to no bearing on my attitude toward LEO's or LE in general. I am a little insulted that you would off handedly suggest that all I know of LEO's is what I have seen on TV or the Big Screen.

The problem is many LEO's don't themselves realize they are indeed normal folks with a different job.

Having worked at a gunstore for over 12 years I have met and been aquainted with a number of LEO's. Some of them have their head on straight I count some of these individuals as friends. They actually talk to me instead of at me and seem to listen to what I have to say to them as if I am a person not a subject.

Many others, indeed as it turns out in my experience most don't. They talk at you, over you around you but never too you.

True Story:
I was once pulled over for waving at a police officer. I was on my way home from work. This was the third day in a row that I had seen this particular officer parked in this particular vacant lot with his radar gun on this particular street. So as I went by I waved at him and smiled. So as I said he pulled me over. So I pulled over turned off the engine and put my hands on the steering wheel. The officer approached my vehicle indicated that he wanted me to roll down my window and I did.

He made the obligatory request for my license, registration and proof of insurance. I told him my license is in my wallet and the rest in my glove box and asked, "why did you pull me over?"

He said, "I pulled you over because you have a cracked windshield."

Indeed I did have a hairline crack in my windshield on the far right passenger side. How he managed to observe this as I passed by at 45mph I will never know.

So anyway, I give the guy my DL, Registration and POI and he says, "wait here". OK, where else am I going to wait?

So he's running my information through dispatch, I can hear most of the conversation because he's using his hand set standing near the back of my truck and I hear this:

Dispatch, "The vehicle has not been reported as stolen, no warrant on subject, why did you pull him over?"

LEO, "He waved at me what was I supposed to do?"

Dispatch, "Wave back."

I respect most laws and I don't intentionally break any of them except for speeding every now and again.

I'm not a kool-aid drinking cop hater nor am I a kool-aid drinking supporter of LE. I was once warned not to post in this public forum because some un-identified BOS regular was offended by my opinion.

Part of this problem is that the BOS forum to some is a special place for LEO's to post LEO stuff and if you're not an LEO your not welcome.

But wait, I thought you were all just normal folks just like me with a different job.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:43:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 6of1:
Amendment XIII - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction





Big +1
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:53:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:04:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
Having been both the Officer receiving civilian assistance (with great gratitude) and having assisted (while in civilian attire and unknown to the officer) uniformed Officers involved in one on one confrontations I can only say that it is "ONE CHIKENSHIT SOMBITCH" that won't render assistance to an Officer in need.





I agree. very good posting.has
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:07:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:

You have to remember when dealing with cops, that most of them are just normal folks with a different job and the majority are not the CSI/Law and Order Legal Beagles Hollywood would like you to believe.


Yes and no on so many levels I could write a book on it. Hollywood, CSI and Law and Order have little to no bearing on my attitude toward LEO's or LE in general. I am a little insulted that you would off handedly suggest that all I know of LEO's is what I have seen on TV or the Big Screen.

The problem is many LEO's don't themselves realize they are indeed normal folks with a different job.



You know Sysop...I really am trying here. If this keeps up though, I am going to get you a "Jumping to Conclusions" mat.

No where did I suggest that your knowledge of LEOs comes from TV. I was referring to the PUBLIC IN GENERAL, not you specifically. You need to take that chip off your shoulder.


Originally Posted By sysop:
I'm not a kool-aid drinking cop hater nor am I a kool-aid drinking supporter of LE. I was once warned not to post in this public forum because some un-identified BOS regular was offended by my opinion.

Part of this problem is that the BOS forum to some is a special place for LEO's to post LEO stuff and if you're not an LEO your not welcome.

But wait, I thought you were all just normal folks just like me with a different job.




I can see why someone warned you. This is a place for cops, firemen, medics and other public safety personnel to hang out and BS and for non-cops to come in and ask questions in a REASONABLE manner, with out stirring shit up. Read the CoC.

No one said that if you weren't a LEO that you aren't welcome here. As far as I know, I haven't yet suggested that you drink kool-aid of any flavor.

Next, (and by no measure here am I implying ANYTHING about your job) but interactions based on dealing with law enforcement customers at a gunstore isn't an awfully valid argument for saying that you are well-versed in the failings and/or attitudes of LEOs, either specifically or in general. Case in point: 90% of people working in gunstores whom I come into contact with are complete idiots with regard to general firearms knowledge. I also find that they generally try to talk down to me or sell me some kind of bogus line of bullshit. I have been a tactical team member for 10+ years. I have been an instructor for 12+ years. I have written articles in various industry journals and professional publications. I am certifed in nine states as a court-appointed expert on the Use of Lethal Force and the Use of Less-Lethal Weapons, as well as Police Ethics. It is safe to say that I know more about firearms and their employment than anyone I have ever encountered in a gunstore. If I were to follow your logic in applying generalizations, I'd would have to say that all people working in gunstores are idiots, and therefore by proxy, so are you.

So far, instead, I see someone that can be rational, even affable, yet with an alarming tendency to read things into the posts of other members, and then lash out in a most juvenile manner.


Originally Posted By sysop:
True Story:
I was once pulled over for waving at a police officer. I was on my way home from work. This was the third day in a row that I had seen this particular officer parked in this particular vacant lot with his radar gun on this particular street. So as I went by I waved at him and smiled. So as I said he pulled me over. So I pulled over turned off the engine and put my hands on the steering wheel. The officer approached my vehicle indicated that he wanted me to roll down my window and I did.

He made the obligatory request for my license, registration and proof of insurance. I told him my license is in my wallet and the rest in my glove box and asked, "why did you pull me over?"

He said, "I pulled you over because you have a cracked windshield."

Indeed I did have a hairline crack in my windshield on the far right passenger side. How he managed to observe this as I passed by at 45mph I will never know.

So anyway, I give the guy my DL, Registration and POI and he says, "wait here". OK, where else am I going to wait?

So he's running my information through dispatch, I can hear most of the conversation because he's using his hand set standing near the back of my truck and I hear this:

Dispatch, "The vehicle has not been reported as stolen, no warrant on subject, why did you pull him over?"

LEO, "He waved at me what was I supposed to do?"

Dispatch, "Wave back."



Great. Everyone has a "Some idiot cop pulled me over just to fuck with me story." There are dozens of reasons why you may be stopped which aren't readily apperant to you, and partly as a matter of officer safety, I'm not going into any of them.

To the general veracity of your own "Traffic Stop Tragedy", I'm not going to out and out call Bullshit, but I am going to mumble it under my breath.

This will be our last interaction. Have a good day.


Sheep
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:29:31 PM EDT
Me to sheep, I am really trying.

You said in response to my post:

"You have to remember when dealing with cops, that most of them are just normal folks with a different job and the majority are not the CSI/Law and Order Legal Beagles Hollywood would like you to believe."

You did not say:

"the PUBLIC IN GENERAL" has remember when dealing with cops, that most of them are just normal folks with a different job and the majority are not the CSI/Law and Order Legal Beagles Hollywood would like you to believe."

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I don't with malice of intent post in the BOS forum to stir up shit.


I can see why someone warned you. This is a place for cops, firemen, medics and other public safety personnel to hang out and BS and for non-cops to come in and ask questions in a REASONABLE manner, with out stirring shit up. Read the CoC.


As far as your knowledge of firearms, paraphrased "I'm the only one I know of in this room that is qualified to carry a glock fotty".


I'd would have to say that all people working in gunstores are idiots, and therefore by proxy, so are you.


Oh gosh what ever happened to the CoC?

Apparently you are under the impression that the personal insult/attack part doesn't apply to you since you are a cop. Since you are a cop you may get away with this because this is the BOS forum and I'm not the type of individual that gets a sandy vagina about inane insults. It calling me an idiot make you happpy then it just goes to prove my point. Please do go on to expound further on the "Cops are just regular folks with a different job" thingy now. I am sure all us idiots will benifit from your superior wisdom.


There are dozens of reasons why you may be stopped which aren't readily apperant to you, and partly as a matter of officer safety.


Really, I had no idea that driving home from work or waving to a police officer could in any way be justification for being stopped. You are correct I cannot begin to imagine what sort of threat I could have possibly posed. Apparently the fact that I waved at the kind officer was perceived as some kind of threat to the officer or perhap there was an APB to pull over anyone who waved to an officer.

"Calling all cars, calling all cars insane, dangerous individual driving home from work, maliciously waving at police officers. Apprehend at all costs."

Who knows?


This will be our last interaction. Have a good day.


Right what was I thinking? You must have more important things to do than interact with mere idiot peons.

The discussion is now closed by the authority of Officer SheepDog_556.

Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 10:17:12 PM EDT
I can truely say that i would have no problem if I was a normal joe snuffy helping a officer.
Heck if it was any other person I would help them. I think as A member of society it is our duty to help others in time of need.
I think everyone not just officers could be helped alot if they knew just part of the federal use of force model. (taking out a few passive resitor options for civilians)
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 10:48:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ml271:
I can truely say that i would have no problem if I was a normal joe snuffy helping a officer.
Heck if it was any other person I would help them. I think as A member of society it is our duty to help others in time of need.
I think everyone not just officers could be helped alot if they knew just part of the federal use of force model. (taking out a few passive resitor options for civilians)



Yesh, weh all agree on that point. The question is should an LEO have the authority to order a non-LEO to risk life and limb in pursuit of enforcement of the law.

As in, I am officer do good and I now deputize you in the name of the law. Kill that dog...........
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 11:07:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 11:16:12 PM EDT by sysop]

13-2403. Refusing to aid a peace officer; classification

A. A person commits refusing to aid a peace officer if, upon a reasonable command by a person reasonably known to be a peace officer, such person knowingly refuses or fails to aid such peace officer in:

1. Effectuating or securing an arrest; or

2. Preventing the commission by another of any offense.

B. A person who complies with this section by aiding a peace officer shall not be held liable to any person for damages resulting therefrom, provided such person acted reasonably under the circumstances known to him at the time.

C. Refusing to aid a peace officer is a class 1 misdemeanor.




So..............

Someone is pounding on your door and and you go answer it. Turns out to be Officer DoGood and he says, "I'm serving a no-knock warrant on the house next door, under my authority as a Police Officer you are now deputized. Here take this Glock 22 and put this 2A vest on, it may help. Shoot the dog first . Follow me......."

Me, I'd say, "hold on officer, I have a 3A tactical entry vest, keep your Glock 22 I'll bring my Kimber Classic and my Bushmaster Dissipator A2 or my Mossberge 590A-1 which would you prefer?. Should I break out the CS Grenades or would that be overkill?"

But you know, I'm a little bit different from most people.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 11:52:41 PM EDT
I don't know what's worse.
Knowing that this happned in Illinois (one of the most corupt states in the USA),
Or the fact that I was expecting this to happen in Chicago.

Add another item to my list of Why I hate Illinois.


In Chicago if a cop enacted that law it would be like playing Rusian Roulette.

Some people (most I've seen) would give anything to see a cop go down.


Me, if that happned I would simply walk off like I was def.

I'm in no way capable of subduing any oponent without tools and then I would most likely use excessive force.
Anger management issues.


not to mention that half of the people in the US are 'not in their right minds.'
Meaning that they are suffering from some sort of mental illness. Trust me when I say this, when someone is not in their right minds they are pretty unpredictable.

Not to mention that people will sue you for spitting on the ground.


The cop should not have arested the guy, It violates the constution

Amendment XIII - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction


Saying that being Deputized is not servitute is somewhat mute because you are serving (assisting) the police.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 5:33:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 5:34:52 AM EDT by SpoiledBySig]

Originally Posted By sysop:

So..............

Someone is pounding on your door and and you go answer it. Turns out to be Officer DoGood and he says, "I'm serving a no-knock warrant on the house next door, under my authority as a Police Officer you are now deputized. Here take this Glock 22 and put this 2A vest on, it may help. Shoot the dog first . Follow me......."

bounce]




C'mon sysop,

You know darn full well that the hypothetical situation would never happen . "Serving a No-Knock" warrant and you are now deputized". And, "Here take this Glock 22 and put this 2A vest on".



I think your imagination is quite running away with you.hippie.gifh.gif
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 5:50:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 5:53:50 AM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 6:44:24 AM EDT
Wow!! I'm gone for a week and miss a thread like this. Dammit! It's great to see that the ARFCOM paranoia is alive and thriving. To those that suggest this penal code act is eqivalent to 'slavery' all that I can say is that it didn't work for the draft and it won't work now. There are several panty lines showing here though. I don't know of ANY state that doesn't have some form of this law on the books with a seperate statute absolving any civilian who answers the call for assistance from civil action. As long as you are actively assisting the Officer who requested help you can't be sued, the city/Officer picks up the liability. That is why you won't see it enacted. Now go back to watching out for the black helicopters.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 10:19:53 AM EDT
I have a hard time with the govermnet compelling anyone to do any form of labor or any act against thier will. That includes the draft.

I see these kinds of laws in the same light. Voluntarily help out, sure, Forced or compelled to I have a problem with.
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