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Posted: 1/27/2009 6:44:59 AM EST
How do you all feel about this guy now? Many posters state "tough luck". http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=821586&page=1
http://www.wnem.com/news/18566890/detail.html WWII Veteran Freezes To Death In Own Home Bay City Electric & Light Restricted Power To Man's Home After Not Paying Bills POSTED: 2:20 pm EST January 26, 2009 UPDATED: 6:56 am EST January 27, 2009 BAY CITY, Mich. –– Officials in central Michigan say a 93-year-old man who owed more than $1,000 in unpaid electric bills froze to death inside his home –– where the municipal power company had restricted his use of electricity. Neighbors and friends of Marvin Schur want answers as to how this could happen. “Now that we do know it was hypothermia, there’s a whole bunch of feelings that I’ve got going through me,” said Jim Herndon, a neighbor of Schur’s. “There’s anger, for the city and the electrical company.” Bay City officials said changes are on the way in an attempt to not let another instance like this happen again. An autopsy determined Schur, 93, died from hypothermia in the home he lived in for years. Bay City Electric Light and Power sent Schur a shutoff notice through the mail a few weeks ago. Then crews placed a shutoff notice on his front door. A few days later, Schur was found by neighbors. Bay City Electric Light and Power, which is owned by the city, said a limiter was placed on Schur’s electrical line. The device limits the power that reaches a home, and it blows out like a fuse if power consumption rises past a set level. The manager of Bay City said the limiter was tripped sometime between the time of installation and the discovery of the man's body. The city manager said city workers keep the limiter on a house for 10 days, then shut off power entirely if the homeowner hasn't paid utility bills or arranged to do so. A medical examiner who conducted the autopsy on Schur told TV5 and WNEM.com that Schur died a painful death due to the hypothermia. Dr. Kanu Varani has done hundreds of autopsies, and he said he’d never seen a person die of hypothermia indoors. A neighbor who lives across the street from Schur is angered that the city didn’t personally notify the elderly man about his utility situation. Schur’s neighbor, Herndon, said Schur had a utility bill on his kitchen table with a large amount of money clipped to it, with the intention of paying that bill. Right now the city said the situation is still under investigation. Marvin Schur was a World War II veteran. A memorial service for him will take place Wednesday at 11:00 a.m. at the Gephart Funeral Home in Bay City. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. City government run utilities. Dead people with money and no heat. Here in WI, between Nov and March they cannot turn off your heat regardless of what you owe. You aren't off the hook, they just can't turn you off when it's cold. I thought that was all over. I guess not. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. It's a shame, but who was in the wrong here? The only person that "screwed up" was the vet by not paying his bill. Who would you send to jail? |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian |
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I for one never said tough luck. In WI they can't shut off gas or power until spring.
I think someone should pay and pay dear. it's a sad day when anyone dies for something so stupid. Especially a Vet! |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian Wow. |
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So all of the neighbors are outraged now, yet none of them went by to check on him.
EVERYONE should know to check on really old neighbors during cod or hot weather. It's sad. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian Wow. This. You stay classy, ARFCOM. |
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That's stright fucked up. 93 years old? My grandfather is 93, and he doesn't get around too well. Esp with snow and as cold as it gets. How would he be able to get the bill paid? If they sent people to his house to put this "limiter" on his line, how hard would it be to knock his door and ask if he knew he was behind payments?
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian I agree completely. In an average sized city, they simply can't babysit all of the residents. That is in all honesty, with the age taken into consideration, is the job of his family or neighbors, maybe social services. Sorry, not the fault of the electric company. Those that "Want someone to pay" need to look up personal responsibility. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian |
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The manager of Bay City said the limiter was tripped sometime between the time of installation and the discovery of the man's body.
No shit. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian How was it theft? He was under a contract with his utility provider, that contract specifies exactly what happens if you are deliquent on payments. No where does it say you've committed a crime if you don't pay. He was still a customer with the utility company so the contract still stands. He had money clipped to the bill ready to pay it. How the hell do you know what circumstances occurred that didn't allow him to get that money to the utility company. Oh yeah... he freakin' froze to death! Do you even pay electricity bills? |
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Shitty deal all the way around, travesty anyone dies with money clipped ot the bill unpaid that led to it....
1) I dont see "theft of services", but if you dont pay, it wont stay on. Obama blue state exceptions above so noted. 2) There is no jail anywhere in this. No crime was committed. Unless he was neglected by people in his life. Family or possible a social system he was in. Then there is wrongful death. Where was his family? Where were his friends? Or did he make his antisocial bed and lie down in it & freeze to death? Regardless it appears sad, unless its what he chose as a lifestyle. Then he could have just as well been in a cave in he Rockies & froze to death. |
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Where was his family? Somebody ought to have been looking after the guy. You know, things like making sure the money on the table makes it to the utility company.
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Shitty deal all the way around, travesty anyone dies with money clipped ot the bill unpaid that led to it.... 1) I dont see "theft of services", but if you dont pay, it wont stay on. Obama blue state exceptions above so noted. 2) There is no jail anywhere in this. No crime was committed. Unless he was neglected by people in his life. Family or possible a social system he was in. Then there is wrongful death. Where was his family? Where were his friends? Or did he make his antisocial bed and lie down in it & freeze to death? Regardless it appears sad, unless its what he chose as a lifestyle. Then he could have just as well been in a cave in he Rockies & froze to death. Quoted:
Where was his family? Somebody ought to have been looking after the guy. You know, things like making sure the money on the table makes it to the utility company. He had no children. His wife died before he did. |
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There was a prior thread on this. As much as I feel sorry for the 93-year old vet, I feel respect for him as well. He lived over twice as long as I have and you don't get that old by being soft or stupid. There's a chance that he made a conscious decision to go this way and, as long as everyone is just speculating about what happened, I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he went out the way he wanted to.
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He died with his self-respect intact. He intended to pay the bill, but was physically unable to do so.
Do not pity a man at the end of his days who dies with his self-respect. Pity those who have none. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian Wow. This. You stay classy, ARFCOM. Did you read my entire post? How about my posts in the original thread? I think it's incredibly sad the guy died over a utility bill. However, I think it's assinine that someone says "someone needs to go to jail" in a case where the only crime appears to have been committed by the deceased. Maybe I should have put quotes around need - "needs". What law did anyone at the utility break? Brian |
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There are programs for the elderly to help with bills and taxes, are there not? I know he had the money, but he might have been able to get it sooner, or more payment extentions. And what, they taped a note to his door and ran off?
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. It's a shame, but who was in the wrong here? The only person that "screwed up" was the vet by not paying his bill. Who would you send to jail? +1 |
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As long as everyone is speculating about social programs, you should know that there are programs to help the elderly pay their utility bills and not have their utilities shut off during winter. LINK
As far as I know, however, the program in the link applies only to public utilities regulated by the Michigan Public Service Commission. The utility involved in this case, however, was a municipally owned utility and wasn't regulated by the MPSC. Most municipally owned utilities, however, have similar programs. It may have been that this guy was too proud to ask for help. |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian How was it theft? He was under a contract with his utility provider, that contract specifies exactly what happens if you are deliquent on payments. No where does it say you've committed a crime if you don't pay. He was still a customer with the utility company so the contract still stands. Depends on state law - may be theft/criminal may be civil. He had money clipped to the bill ready to pay it. How the hell do you know what circumstances occurred that didn't allow him to get that money to the utility company. Oh yeah... he freakin' froze to death! How long does it take to get ~$1K behind on your electricity bill? Most likely months. Did you read the original thread with posts from utility workers that install shut off devices - you know BTDT folks? Do you even pay electricity bills? Are you trying to insinuate I'm some HS kid, I'm on welfare or since I live in CA I get everything for free and that's why CA is in a budget crisis? I do pay elec bills (along with cable, internet, mortgage, water/sewer, trash, phone, cell phone, NG) and I've never been deliquent on a bill even when unemployed. Brian |
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If the dead guy had been an illegal alien instead of a WWII vet I'm guessing most of you wouldn't be calling for jail.......
Brian |
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Do you even pay electricity bills? Are you trying to insinuate I'm some HS kid, I'm on welfare or since I live in CA I get everything for free and that's why CA is in a budget crisis? I do pay elec bills (along with cable, internet, mortgage, water/sewer, trash, phone, cell phone, NG) and I've never been deliquent on a bill even when unemployed. Brian Not in the least. I'm just curious if you've every read your electricity contract? Do you know what happens when you go deliquent on your bill, by one month, by two months? If all you have is electricity for heat, then you might run up a high bill in a month in a state like MI. |
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WTF - poor people on welfare don't freeze, why would a vet?
Messed up man, really messed up. |
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Do you even pay electricity bills? Are you trying to insinuate I'm some HS kid, I'm on welfare or since I live in CA I get everything for free and that's why CA is in a budget crisis? I do pay elec bills (along with cable, internet, mortgage, water/sewer, trash, phone, cell phone, NG) and I've never been deliquent on a bill even when unemployed. Brian Not in the least. I'm just curious if you've every read your electricity contract? Do you know what happens when you go deliquent on your bill, by one month, by two months? If all you have is electricity for heat, then you might run up a high bill in a month in a state like MI. I believe the linked original thread stated Schur was months behind on the bill. Brian |
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As long as everyone is speculating about social programs, you should know that there are programs to help the elderly pay their utility bills and not have their utilities shut off during winter. LINK As far as I know, however, the program in the link applies only to public utilities regulated by the Michigan Public Service Commission. The utility involved in this case, however, was a municipally owned utility and wasn't regulated by the MPSC. Most municipally owned utilities, however, have similar programs. It may have been that this guy was too proud to ask for help. Good for him, too bad more societal leeches dont think the same way. Perhaps we could all keep more of our earned money. |
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Where was his family? Somebody ought to have been looking after the guy. You know, things like making sure the money on the table makes it to the utility company. That's what I was wondering. It's not rare to hear about the elderly dying because they're no longer self-sufficient. It's a shame to hear about it happening though. |
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Sad but he didn't pay his bill. Electricity is not free. He could have went to a shelter.
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Where was his family? Somebody ought to have been looking after the guy. You know, things like making sure the money on the table makes it to the utility company. That's what I was wondering. It's not rare to hear about the elderly dying because they're no longer self-sufficient. It's a shame to hear about it happening though. As previously stated - his wife died before he did, no kids. Brian |
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Like in the other thread, it's a worse the death proponents still stand behind the dollar principal.
Not everyone is going to be a millionaire, not everyone is going to be wealthy, not everyone want to or can move to another state, not everyone will make choices based on the right or current criteria. Woulda-shoulda-coulda |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian Wow. you cant fix stupid |
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That's what I was wondering. It's not rare to hear about the elderly dying because they're no longer self-sufficient. It's a shame to hear about it happening though. As previously stated - his wife died before he did, no kids. Brian Hey Brian, wonder what it was like being that old guy, looking at that large sum of money and probably unable to move? |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian I agree completely. In an average sized city, they simply can't babysit all of the residents. That is in all honesty, with the age taken into consideration, is the job of his family or neighbors, maybe social services. Sorry, not the fault of the electric company. Those that "Want someone to pay" need to look up personal responsibility. you go tell that to his fellow surviving WWII vets that he needed "personal responsibility" he probably had more of that in the tip of his dick than you will ever hope to have in your entire life |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. It's a shame, but who was in the wrong here? The only person that "screwed up" was the vet by not paying his bill. Who would you send to jail? My mother lives by herself in Ohio and is 90 years old. I talked to her today and she told me she hasn't left the house for over 30 days. She says that she is afraid she will fall, the roads are too bad to drive, and she is afraid the cold air will trigger an episode of shortness of breath. Luckily, she lives outside a small town and has a small town mailman who gets out of the truck and brings her mail up to her porch even though she was told by the post office that they wouldn't do that for her: why ? Because he knows it is the right thing to do. I know that on AR15.com is is really cool to try to convince people that you are a real hard ass. I also realize that a large percentage of people posting on this board are very young and have experienced very little of life and don't know much about some of the hardships that people are faced with. That is why I excuse posts like the one I quoted as people talking out their ass because their mouth knows better. As I said in the previous thread on this subject, If I knew one of my elderly neighbors couldn't pay his electric bill, I would find a way to pay it myself and wouldn't tell him about it. Why ? For a couple reasons that many in our self centered, it's all about me world don't understand: #1 because it is the right thing to do. #2 because of the golden rule. I am not a particularly religious person. I haven't been to church in 20 years probably. But, I realize that trying to help other people is what I would hope someone would do for me if I needed help. AGain, not for money but simply because it is the right thing to do. brian4wd's post is exactly what I would expect from him. There is nothing that would make me happier than to see him in a position like this some day so I can piss on him. |
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If the dead guy had been an illegal alien instead of a WWII vet I'm guessing most of you wouldn't be calling for jail....... Brian |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian Wow. you cant fix stupid I'm sorry to report that you cannot be fixed. Care to explain who should go to jail for this man's death? Maybe list the elements of the crime and how that persons actions met those elements? Brian |
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That's what I was wondering. It's not rare to hear about the elderly dying because they're no longer self-sufficient. It's a shame to hear about it happening though. As previously stated - his wife died before he did, no kids. Brian Hey Brian, wonder what it was like being that old guy, looking at that large sum of money and probably unable to move? I'm pretty sure it sucked. Care to explain who else would be at fault for Schurs failure to pay his elec bill and his ultimate death? It's funny - I'm usually accused of being the resident CA liberal JBT but in this case I'm accused of being a dollartarian hard ass..... Brian |
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that's a damn shame. someone needs to go to jail. The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime. The utility mailed a notice and posted a notice on the door and probably knocked like crazy to try and get the guy to answer the door. How many bills did Schur get that were marked "Past Due" and listed disconnection as one of the possible outcomes? Neither the fact that he served in WWII nor that cash was clipped to the bill has any bearing on this - it's a sad event period. All that said, I find it a sad commentary that neighbors were unable/unwilling to assist Schur (not financially) and keep an eye on him. Brian Wow. you cant fix stupid I'm sorry to report that you cannot be fixed. Care to explain who should go to jail for this man's death? Maybe list the elements of the crime and how that persons actions met those elements? Brian you are the one that said the only person who should have gone to jail is dead..not me your words not mine "The only person that needs to go to jail is dead - theft of services is a crime." |
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So all of the neighbors are outraged now, yet none of them went by to check on him. EVERYONE should know to check on really old neighbors during cod or hot weather. It's sad. They went to check on him and found him dead. Who do you think found him ? The bill collectors ? |
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