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11/9/2018 9:21:38 PM
Posted: 9/19/2011 5:01:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 5:05:21 PM EST by xm177e2687]
A few months ago there was a thread about the old catalogs that you could order hunting rifles from straight to your door, and it reminded me of an advertisement I had seen in either Soldier of Fortune or Eagle magazine that was for "Mail order Assault Rifles No FFL required shipped straight to your door" I dont know how this was at all legal. When I originally posted the now archived thread, I could not find the magazine to post pictures. I just moved recently and in the process, found the magazine and here are the pictures. Ad claims they will ship any of these guns directly to the buyer with no FFL being required at all for transfer, there is also an ad for "suppressor kits" that came with the tube AND the innards, in a disassembled state, also shipped straight to your door.










So how the hell did this work???? I am pretty sure that even back in the early 80s when this ad appeared in Eagle magazine, it was already totally illegal to order a firearm that was not antique directly to your home without an FFL. I know that during the 70s and 80s there were a lot of loopholes being taken advantage of, the suppressor thing that I mentioned, 99.9% MAC-10 smg receivers for sale with no FFL etc etc... but I cannot think of any way that this could have been possible.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:10:10 PM EST
I think its a trap.

IIRC, someone did some research on something similar ($105 drop-in auto-sear ad) that is some sort of ATF trap.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:13:52 PM EST
[akbar] Its a trap [/akbar]
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:13:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gingerbreadman:
I think its a trap.

IIRC, someone did some research on something similar ($105 drop-in auto-sear ad) that is some sort of ATF trap.


I believe the ad you are referring to appeared in shotgun news. This ad is from the early 80s though, the advertised service is obviously no longer available, maybe it WAS an ATF trap but judging by some of the things I've heard about gunshows during this era, and other items that were available at the time, it may very well have been a legit loophole.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:15:02 PM EST
It says Master-Charge instead of Master Card so that was likely prior to '79.

Looks like since you send them the ATF form they handle it in-house.


Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:17:07 PM EST
I miss all the cool shit.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:17:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:17:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By xm177e2687:
So how the hell did this work????.


Even today, if you have a Curio & Relic license, it is still perfectly legal to have certain "assault rifles" shipped directly to your doorstep - Without the involvement of any FFL.

The down side is that the list of C&R approved "assault rifles" is quite small.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:17:59 PM EST
Meh, stop teasing me with past freedoms...
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:21:10 PM EST
Damn look how expensive a real Belgian FAL was! Damn over twice the cost of an HK 91
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:22:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By hoppinglark:
It says Master-Charge instead of Master Card so that was likely prior to '79.

Looks like since you send them the ATF form they handle it in-house.




Well, it accepts Visa. BankAmericard became Visa around '76. So, it looks like you are seeing a window between '76 and '79. YMMV.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:50:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By xm177e2687:
So how the hell did this work????.


Even today, if you have a Curio & Relic license, it is still perfectly legal to have certain "assault rifles" shipped directly to your doorstep - Without the involvement of any FFL.

The down side is that the list of C&R approved "assault rifles" is quite small.



What is on that list? Anything in 308? Been itching to use my C&R but havent really looked.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:03:00 PM EST
Anything over 50 years in original trim is fair game, list or not. Modifications less than 50 years ago are a disqualifying factor though.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:05:04 PM EST
Watch yer cornhole Peter.


Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:05:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By xm177e2687:
So how the hell did this work????.


Even today, if you have a Curio & Relic license, it is still perfectly legal to have certain "assault rifles" shipped directly to your doorstep - Without the involvement of any FFL.

The down side is that the list of C&R approved "assault rifles" is quite small.


Wellllllll, technically, a C&R is an FFL.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:09:23 PM EST


This picture....I lose it every time. Thanks for making me spit my drink all over the monitor!

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:26:02 PM EST
Maybe the "BATF form" they mention you having to fill out as a condition of the sale is a type 01 FFL application? Then once that's approved they can ship you the guns "no OTHER FFL needed". Steep order cancellation fee for folks that can't or won't complete the 01 application. Shady as hell and probably classified as fraud, but it technically wouldn't violate the '68 GCA.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:37:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By olekennyroy:
Meh, stop teasing me with past freedoms...


Yep, looking at the prices makes baby jesus cry.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 6:46:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cole2534:
I miss all the cool shit.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


No shit.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 1:35:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2011 1:36:48 PM EST by xm177e2687]
To everyone talking about C&Rs.. I understand how that works, in fact most of the rifles that I am interested in, retro armalite stuff, are either already or becoming C&R eligible.. Sadly I live in NJ, in this state you cannot have anything shipped directly to you even if you have a C&R. The guns in this ad were NOT C&R eligible when the ad was run and most of them still arent. The magazine was from 1983.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 1:49:00 PM EST
At one time there was a version of 4473 marked for "Non-over the counter sales".
Form was filled out,
signed by local LE (ala form 4)
and returned to the shipper.
Shipper would contact local LE for confirmation of signature and ship the firearm.

I do not think these forms (4473 NoCs) are avaiable any longer.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 1:51:23 PM EST
One way that would have worked legally, was to ship to the buyer from a dealer in the buyers state. That was legal & may possibly still be legal( I haven't had an FFL for about 8 years).The company in the ad was probably a wholesaler & could have had dealers in each state to carry out their transactions. The dealer in your home state could legally mail your gun to you without a FTF deal.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 2:04:10 PM EST
The address for the seller is in BEAVER, AR.

What could possibly go wrong.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:02:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gingerbreadman:
I think its a trap.

IIRC, someone did some research on something similar ($105 drop-in auto-sear ad) that is some sort of ATF trap.


That has never been proven.

On this forum we have had people claim to know the seller personally, and have had reports of buyers.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:05:52 PM EST
Reminds me of this pic below... $600 HK91's!?!?!


Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:08:42 PM EST
I remember those days...
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:09:27 PM EST
What about those ads for .25cal handguns that claimed to come with a concealed carry license?
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:10:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By GunBowanna:
At one time there was a version of 4473 marked for "Non-over the counter sales".
Form was filled out,
signed by local LE (ala form 4)
and returned to the shipper.
Shipper would contact local LE for confirmation of signature and ship the firearm.

I do not think these forms (4473 NoCs) are avaiable any longer.


I'm not sure if they are actually available, or not, but ATF still lists them on the Distribution Center site.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:12:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2011 6:58:32 PM EST by JosephTurrisi]
Originally Posted By xm177e2687:
Originally Posted By Gingerbreadman:
I think its a trap.

IIRC, someone did some research on something similar ($105 drop-in auto-sear ad) that is some sort of ATF trap.


I believe the ad you are referring to appeared in shotgun news. This ad is from the early 80s though, the advertised service is obviously no longer available, maybe it WAS an ATF trap but judging by some of the things I've heard about gunshows during this era, and other items that were available at the time, it may very well have been a legit loophole.


That ad still shows up in the shot gun news it is in the issue 24 of September 5 2011 on page 82
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:19:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By JosephTurrisi:
Originally Posted By xm177e2687:
Originally Posted By Gingerbreadman:
I think its a trap.

IIRC, someone did some research on something similar ($105 drop-in auto-sear ad) that is some sort of ATF trap.


I believe the ad you are referring to appeared in shotgun news. This ad is from the early 80s though, the advertised service is obviously no longer available, maybe it WAS an ATF trap but judging by some of the things I've heard about gunshows during this era, and other items that were available at the time, it may very well have been a legit loophole.


That ad still shows up in the shot gun news it is in the issue 24 of September 5 2011 on page 82


Yea, as someone else stated, I dont think its been proven that its a BATF trap. I could easily see how someone might come to that conclusion based on the nature of the product being sold, but it could very well be a legit ad for something that is techincally not illegal to purchase and own.
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:23:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By fivepointoh:
Reminds me of this pic below... $600 HK91's!?!?!



600 bucks was a hell of a lot of money back in 1983. According to this inflation calculator I just used, it was the 2010 equivalent of $1,295, which is still cheaper than what the HK91 sells for today, but they are considered collectors items at this point and are no longer manufactured so the prices on them are high.
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:32:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2011 3:32:54 AM EST by ANGST]
A C&R is an 03 FFL

Dealer is 01 , ect..
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